Technical Inquiry for DSG Gurus (wouldn't it be a "nice to have"?)

[Saabstory02]

OK, so I had this awesomely cool/funny idea while sitting in my car in traffic this morning and I was wondering if there is any way at all to make it work...?

The idea that hit me is this (with a little backstory). If you don't have time to waste just skip down to the IDEA part... :

Driving in to work I usually start out by 5:30 AM and leave the car in D until it is fully warmed up just to be safe. Usually by 20-25 minutes into my drive, or whenever I make it to the first traffic lights/traffic slow-down, I'll go ahead and toss it into M mode for the remainder of the drive. This is obviously more fun, but it also serves the purpose of keeping me a bit more involved and therefore a bit more awake as well...

However, and as I am sure you can all imagine, in a 65 mile commute I hit a large variety of road types, traffic james, stop lights, etc. When things are particularly bad I'll slip back to D or even into neutral if I know I'll be sitting a while. However, sometimes I'll sit there and tap the paddles just out of boredom... Bad habit I know, but hey; I waste 3-5 hours a day in my car, gimme a break

Anyway; I was stuck at one such light this morning... If I hit the light prior to 6:30 it is fast, like 15 seconds from green to red to green again fast. But after 6:30 it goes into "rush hour" mode and takes almost 2 minutes to go green once it switches (as the road I hit it at is the "low traffic" side). Sitting at the light this morning, toss my car into neutral with the parking brake on, tapping at the paddles and humming along to some Led Zeppelin it all hit me...


(and here we come to the idea part)

I think it would be great if we could actaully FULLY control the DSG via the paddles in manual mode. Simple right? if only... Imagine if you could put your car in M and have control of Neutral, Reverse, shifts, etc all at your fingertips

My idea was this:

-If you put the car in M mode; you could (as you can now) control up and down shifts normally; but you could also control neutral by pulling both paddles for like 2 seconds, and reverse by hitting neutral then pulling both paddles again for like 2 seconds... Flipping back to forawrd M mode from either would simply require 1 long pull on the + paddle.

I know it isn't a "HUGE" feature addition, but at the same time it would make the transmission more manual like and fully controllable; and would make for some fun at least

I am curious to find out if this is even possible; and if so what it might take; anyone know?

[tdcvdub87]

That would be sweet lots of fun! I am no DSG guru by any means but I don’t think that would be possible, but I would ask Jeff at UM it seems like he is the best at all things DSG.

[LoyalSage]

Possible or not, I would just continue to shift sequentially. R - N - 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6. Sort of like a motorcycle. I don't think a double paddle combination specially a hold one is good.

We need to be able to change gears quick.

Another thing I always felt would be nice is if the stick direction to shift could be reversed. pulling the stick towards you upshifts and pushing it away from you downshifts. This would put the motion in line with your body motion in acceleration and deceleration. It makes more sense to me.

[abeR]

you crazy saab!

[Sdubs]

Possible or not, I would just continue to shift sequentially. R - N - 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6. Sort of like a motorcycle. I don't think a double paddle combination specially a hold one is good.

We need to be able to change gears quick.

Another thing I always felt would be nice is if the stick direction to shift could be reversed. pulling the stick towards you upshifts and pushing it away from you downshifts. This would put the motion in line with your body motion in acceleration and deceleration. It makes more sense to me.

I like this approach. It's like when you play Forza. If you keep downshifting you hit neutral and then reverse. Keep it simple like this.

[pseudosuit]

Personally, I wouldn't want reverse on the paddles. But being able to go into neutral "below" first would be awesome.

[Fred@UnitedMotorsport]

Ask Zevion...

We spoke about re-writing the entire DSG code.


Is your idea possible: sure, given enough time/money.


-Jeffrey Atwood

[10Ten]

sounds cool, but not for me. i'm pretty ok with the current setup, cus i like using the control stick as part of the shifting experience since i like going back and forth. and i definitely would not want reverse accessible through the paddles alone.

[Saabstory02]

That would be sweet lots of fun! I am no DSG guru by any means but I don’t think that would be possible, but I would ask Jeff at UM it seems like he is the best at all things DSG.

Thanks, he is one of the people I was hoping would answer (and did below )

Possible or not, I would just continue to shift sequentially. R - N - 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6. Sort of like a motorcycle. I don't think a double paddle combination specially a hold one is good.

We need to be able to change gears quick.

Another thing I always felt would be nice is if the stick direction to shift could be reversed. pulling the stick towards you upshifts and pushing it away from you downshifts. This would put the motion in line with your body motion in acceleration and deceleration. It makes more sense to me.

My only concern with that route would be "real world" driving, or even more so on a track, if you accidentally added an extra paddle stroke in there without meaning to... Bam, you hit neutral, have no power for control and possibly have some serious issues. My thinking was the 2 paddle method requires a little more direct action on the driver's part to leave forward gears and enter neutral or reverse so it oculdn't be done accidentally at any time.

Personally I like the way the shifter works now; but I remember well our discussions on the topic

you crazy saab!

Gotta fill the empty miles with something

I like this approach. It's like when you play Forza. If you keep downshifting you hit neutral and then reverse. Keep it simple like this.

thanks, I commented above about that idea but I still like both either way

Personally, I wouldn't want reverse on the paddles. But being able to go into neutral "below" first would be awesome.

Ask Zevion...

We spoke about re-writing the entire DSG code.


Is your idea possible: sure, given enough time/money.


-Jeffrey Atwood

While I don't have Lyle's unlimited fundage; I'm all ears if it were possible to work this up some way

[Saabstory02]

sounds cool, but not for me. i'm pretty ok with the current setup, cus i like using the control stick as part of the shifting experience since i like going back and forth. and i definitely would not want reverse accessible through the paddles alone.

the reverse part is the main reason I wanted to "separate" function by means of some added step (like using both paddles) but I get ya

[abeR]

why not think bigger?!

mind control DSG

[VR6Nikopol]

I personally like the idea to select neutral at any time: like a true manual.

Especially coming to a stop. I would rather go from, let's say 4th, directly to neutral when braking and have the 1st synchronized quickly for a brief stop. I just hate having to wait for the 4 to 3 to 2 to 1. Even if I can do it manually, it's not fast enough and my GF just hate the downshift breaking

[AWDMKV]

2 Weeks ago I was lucky enough to meet up with Jesse and have him UM tune my car in boston and I actually got a ride in that sweet ass R36 and I must say I love this DSG tune. I opted for the 5500 launch and disabled the auto upshifts.

The only thing that I really wish was part of this tune is a seperate race screen on the MFD2 that only displays the Current gear in a huge BOLD way instead all small at the bottom. just in case some are confused about what I am saying ill explain further.

in how you can change to radio, navi, fuel, time, - to have a RACE mode where the whole MFD space is only the Current Gear # that you are in - picture at 2.5" # 1 something that gives you a feeling of this car means buisness and also to help when aggresively driving on the track !

just a nice idea - doubt it is possible but seeing as we are all dreaming this is one of mine...

[Slave IV]

Driving in to work I usually start out by 5:30 AM and leave the car in D until it is fully warmed up just to be safe. Usually by 20-25 minutes into my drive, or whenever I make it to the first traffic lights/traffic slow-down, I'll go ahead and toss it into M mode for the remainder of the drive.

.. Bad habit I know, but hey; I waste 3-5 hours a day in my car, gimme a break

I do the same...warm up the car in D and then it goes into M permanently for the rest of the drive. But the part about wasting time is blasphemy! No time behind the wheel of an .:R is wasted

sounds cool, but not for me. i'm pretty ok with the current setup, cus i like using the control stick as part of the shifting experience since i like going back and forth. and i definitely would not want reverse accessible through the paddles alone.

I pretty much only use the shift lever and rarely use the paddles. I think adding controls for N and R in the paddles will cause some people to get into trouble from user error and with the safety measures, it becomes too slow and clunky so might as well use the stick. Also, what happens to the stick position when you go into N or R from the paddles...it just gets bypassed/ignored?

Anyways, interesting thought...

[Fast1one]

I have another idea. The Ferrari's (along with other sport cars) have a neat trick where you can hold the downshift paddle and the car will automatically downshift under full throttle conditions braking for a turn. Removes the human component, but it would probably reduce some lag caused by human response time.

Just a thought. Maybe I'm just lazy

[petef]

I personally like the idea to select neutral at any time: like a true manual.

Especially coming to a stop. I would rather go from, let's say 4th, directly to neutral when braking and have the 1st synchronized quickly for a brief stop. I just hate having to wait for the 4 to 3 to 2 to 1. Even if I can do it manually, it's not fast enough and my GF just hate the downshift breaking

This x2.

[CF3018]

to neutral with the paddles.

I also wish that the gears in the MFD went 123456 instead of 654321 since you shift up with the right paddle and down with the left.

[SFCL]

On Aston MArtin you pull both paddles and a red light comes on in the dash and says "press to engage reverse". The padlles are mounted on the steering clomun(dont know if makes a difference)

[Howboutcha C'mon]

1. Hold downshift paddle for auto downshift given speed during deceleration (458 style).

2. Gear selector pulled back for up-shift, and pushed forward for downshift (GT5 style).

3. Full MFD display of current gear (shoulda been OEM style).

Figure out a way to throw a neutral selection without having to remove hands from the wheel, and I'd be willing to pay a pretty penny for it.

[zevion]

Here's my thoughts (I'm using the VW identifiers for the various components).

The left and right Tiptronic Upshift (E438) and and Downshift (E439) buttons are connected to the multifunction steering wheel control module (J453). This is connected to the Steering Column Electronic System Control Module (J527) via the Airbag Spiral Spring (F138). The control module (J527) is connect to the power train CAN bus, just like the DSG shift lever/control module (E313/J587). In both cases, messages are sent to the DSG Mechatronic (J743) via the can bus.

I don't think it would be possible to detect press and hold events, or simultaneous presses from the drivetrain CAN bus. I think there are just upshift or downshift messages. So this type of functionality would be difficult. Primarily because at the point you could intercept the CAN events you couldn't do much more than filter them or insert new messages with a device inserted between the CAN signals of J527 and the drivetrain CAN bus (using a microcontroller with dual CAN interfaces...I can get into details later if anyone cares). What you need to do is have direct input from the buttons, then generate upshift or downshift events, or neutral selection directly to the DSG Mechatronic.

I have some ideas about how it could be done inside the steering wheel itself, but would need to sniff the CAN bus protocol to see how J453 and J527 interact. I might be able to make a little devices that connects to the buttons (cutting their connection to J453), then attach to the CAN bus between J453 and J527 and inject CAN messages to select gears, or neutral and implement most anything that has been mentioned.

I have been designing something for CAN bus sniffing and some other interesting applications, but my real interest is the DSG. I want absolute control over it. Sounds like I'm not the only one.

[LWNY]

No DSG tuner shop is going to go thru all that effort to implement any of those features since it requires actual coding. What they currently do is pretty simple. disable upshift - change upshift point to beyond redline. shift point/speed - give S's programming to D. display gear indicator in DIS - enable feature that was always there. increase LC RPM - change max RPM in code. Add LC feature in cars w/o LC - enable it in the code. None of them actually required any rewriting of the DSG code.

What I really want is pre-cog, which is what people bitched about since day one. Plus a progressively faster flashing shift indicator as one approaches redline.

[zevion]

No DSG tuner shop is going to go thru all that effort to implement any of those features since it requires actual coding. What they currently do is pretty simple. disable upshift - change upshift point to beyond redline. shift point/speed - give S's programming to D. display gear indicator in DIS - enable feature that was always there. increase LC RPM - change max RPM in code. Add LC feature in cars w/o LC - enable it in the code. None of them actually required any rewriting of the DSG code.

What I really want is pre-cog, which is what people bitched about since day one. Plus a progressively faster flashing shift indicator as one approaches redline.

But I might.

[LoyalSage]

2. Gear selector pulled back for up-shift, and pushed forward for downshift (GT5 style).

Of all the changes mentioned I think this one is a huge win and should not be too difficult for UM to achieve.

[ZPrime]

No DSG tuner shop is going to go thru all that effort to implement any of those features since it requires actual coding.

If you think Jeff isn't doing "actual coding" you are sorely mistaken.

I obviously haven't seen the code, but given some of the things he's said to me in conversation, it's pretty clear (in my head at least) that he has effectively "laid bare" the system and is playing around with a lot of the deep voodoo that happens in there.

Now, can he make additional stuff happen that the system was never designed for from the factory? My hunch is "probably," given enough time and [financial] motivation.

Neutral on the paddles is a Bad Idea. They are way too easy to hit. As Zevion says, the paddles simply send a signal via CAN to the mechatronics unit (MU). As far as I'm aware the signals are NOT as fine-grained as "right paddle closed, right paddle open" (which is what you'd need for something complicated like "hold both in for neutral"). I'm pretty sure that Ferrari doesn't use the paddles for anything beyond 1-7 - I know R has its own button, but I'm not sure about neutral. It's way too dangerous in a car with wheel-mounted paddles (like ours) I'd think.

I agree that the +/- on the stick should be swapped, and I'd love for 1-6 in M to progress left to right so when you hit - to go down the indicator moves left... I'd think that the second one should be pretty simple to swap in software. Don't know about the stick direction swap - if it sends the same signals on CAN as the paddles do, then that might not work.

The Ferrari-style "drop me to the right gear" is a cool idea... but you could accomplish the same thing by having your DSG tune *NOT* delete the kickdown switch in M. As long as you can control your right leg, you can go to 100% throttle without hitting it. When you instantly want the lowest gear for the speed, you mash the kickdown button and DSG will go straight there.

Guys that are complaining about wanting to go straight to Neutral while coming to a stop - you do know this is illegal in most states? Typically there are laws that imply your car must have power to the wheels until the last 5-10 feet or something. The idea is that in a manual, if something happens and you need to speed up, you're already in a gear. It also actually helps fuel economy. Obviously getting back into a gear doesn't take as long with DSG, but the point still stands.

Also, why are you downshifting it coming to the stop? Just let the car drop gears on its own. Mine (with UM tune) tends to stay in 2nd as long as possible, which then makes the takeoff smoother since it's not going all the way down to 1st. I can't feel the downshifts at all unless I explicitly request one (Which causes a revmatch and slight jerking). I have the full VF mount set too, so things are stiffer on my car than stock.

If you are feeling the auto-downshifts while gliding/braking to a stop, re-adapt your DSG as it probably needs it. You shouldn't feel that at all unless you have the arse of a princess.

The other feature I'd love to see in DSG is the ability to start from a stop in a higher gear. Given our AWD it's not generally an issue, but if it's really icy / snowy and you don't have snows on, it could theoretically be good to be able to set off in 2nd. (big turbo GTI guys could benefit here for sure.) It would be cool for the MU to obey an upshift when stopped and override the auto-downshift logic for that single set-off, so it can roll off in 2nd rather than 1st. Have it reset back to normal behavior immediately after the car goes faster than 5 mph (for example).

[bazzle]

Of all the changes mentioned I think this one is a huge win and should not be too difficult for UM to achieve.

This would require a "new" switch as the current one is single throw only.

Bazzle

[petef]

Neutral on the paddles is a Bad Idea. They are way too easy to hit. ... It's way too dangerous in a car with wheel-mounted paddles (like ours) I'd think.

Guys that are complaining about wanting to go straight to Neutral while coming to a stop - you do know this is illegal in most states? Typically there are laws that imply your car must have power to the wheels until the last 5-10 feet or something. The idea is that in a manual, if something happens and you need to speed up, you're already in a gear. It also actually helps fuel economy. Obviously getting back into a gear doesn't take as long with DSG, but the point still stands.

If you are feeling the auto-downshifts while gliding/braking to a stop, re-adapt your DSG as it probably needs it. You shouldn't feel that at all unless you have the arse of a princess.

Who knew this was such a bad idea? I certainly wouldn't want to break any laws whilst driving the .:R as I never speed or drive in a reckless manner currently - it rumples my tushie pillow.

[ZPrime]

Hey, I wasn't trying to say the law is why it shouldn't be done, it was just an example. I'd be more concerned about accidental neutral engagement itself and the consequences that might have. I also simply don't see the need for it. Why do you want to put the car in N? If it's a matter of smoothness, my point is that you shouldn't be getting clunks in the "slow roll-up" situation at all.

[ZPrime]

This would require a "new" switch as the current one is single throw only.

Bazzle

I think he means push/pull for the stick itself, not the paddles. I.e. reverse the - and + directions.

[Saabstory02]

Just as a quick fyi (I love the discussion this thread has opened up so far, I'd like to see more of this stuff):

The paddles already have the ability to do more than just upshift/downshift signals, as an example think of how you return the DSG to D mode after you take temporary control with the paddles... Long pull on the upshift paddle

[Fast1one]

The Ferrari-style "drop me to the right gear" is a cool idea... but you could accomplish the same thing by having your DSG tune *NOT* delete the kickdown switch in M. As long as you can control your right leg, you can go to 100% throttle without hitting it. When you instantly want the lowest gear for the speed, you mash the kickdown button and DSG will go straight there.

I think you misunderstood us. What I meant was when your foot is NOT on the gas pedal, decelerating (braking) into a corner. Currently if you're in 5th and need to shift down to 2nd, engine braking in a track situation, you have to push the paddle sequentially to go from 5 to 4, 4 to 3, and finally 3 to 2.

In the Ferarri 458, you simply hold down the downshift paddle and the transmission will automatically downshift and rev match at the precise moment that the car slows down enough. So while at a track to go from 5 to 2 during hard braking you simply hold the paddle

[LWNY]

If you think Jeff isn't doing "actual coding" you are sorely mistaken.

I obviously haven't seen the code, but given some of the things he's said to me in conversation, it's pretty clear (in my head at least) that he has effectively "laid bare" the system and is playing around with a lot of the deep voodoo that happens in there.

Now, can he make additional stuff happen that the system was never designed for from the factory? My hunch is "probably," given enough time and [financial] motivation.

The vast majority, including Jeff, are fine tuning parameters in their codes to get to what they think is the optimal performance. I haven't seen anyone actually implement any new features such as adding features to the DIS. It is obviously possible to write anything one wants on the DIS, as show by the limitless possibility implemented by various ipod adapters. Real hacking into the system would the DSG software talk with the haldex controller so S in DSG changes haldex to sport mode and M in DSG changes haldex to race mode.

[ZPrime]

I think you misunderstood us. What I meant was when your foot is NOT on the gas pedal, decelerating (braking) into a corner. Currently if you're in 5th and need to shift down to 2nd, engine braking in a track situation, you have to push the paddle sequentially to go from 5 to 4, 4 to 3, and finally 3 to 2.

In the Ferarri 458, you simply hold down the downshift paddle and the transmission will automatically downshift and rev match at the precise moment that the car slows down enough. So while at a track to go from 5 to 2 during hard braking you simply hold the paddle

Y'know, I did completely understand, but there was a disconnect between what I started thinking when I posted and when I was reading the other posts. I have seen/heard of the Ferrari feature you're talking about and it's win.

LWNY: Unless HPA re-engineers the Haldex to determine the setting based on CAN, I don't see how they could do what you're saying with the DSG. The haldex settings are either ground or voltage based - a certain pin gets connected depending on what switch setting you choose. It's currently "lower level" than a CAN message. I agree completely that full MFD changes (large gear indicator) would be really cool, but again, it comes down to working within the framework that you're given. I don't know enough about how the MU / MFD interactions work to know if it's possible or not.

Oh, and I would consider "holding 600NM of torque" a pretty significant feature addition. Jeff actually goes beyond that with the big turbo stuff, and he's digging into things in the DSG that he says nobody else has touched. (Obviously I have no way to prove this.)

[reRESERVEDMD]

Having driven an E-Gear Gallardo, the thing everyone is talking about has to do with pulling both paddles to engage Neutral. It is not an R N 1 2.... sequence. When in neutral, you can pull the right one to select first, but cannot engage reverse thru either one.

It would be nice to see that in the R32, but why since it's already got a classic PRND gate...

[Howboutcha C'mon]

Things got a bit too technical, I like to believe that these things can happen magically if enough owners wallets are swollen.

[jademara]

Neutral on the paddles is a Bad Idea. They are way too easy to hit. As Zevion says, the paddles simply send a signal via CAN to the mechatronics unit (MU). As far as I'm aware the signals are NOT as fine-grained as "right paddle closed, right paddle open" (which is what you'd need for something complicated like "hold both in for neutral"). I'm pretty sure that Ferrari doesn't use the paddles for anything beyond 1-7 - I know R has its own button, but I'm not sure about neutral. It's way too dangerous in a car with wheel-mounted paddles (like ours) I'd think.

I agree that the +/- on the stick should be swapped, and I'd love for 1-6 in M to progress left to right so when you hit - to go down the indicator moves left... I'd think that the second one should be pretty simple to swap in software. Don't know about the stick direction swap - if it sends the same signals on CAN as the paddles do, then that might not work.

The Ferrari-style "drop me to the right gear" is a cool idea... but you could accomplish the same thing by having your DSG tune *NOT* delete the kickdown switch in M. As long as you can control your right leg, you can go to 100% throttle without hitting it. When you instantly want the lowest gear for the speed, you mash the kickdown button and DSG will go straight there.

Guys that are complaining about wanting to go straight to Neutral while coming to a stop - you do know this is illegal in most states? Typically there are laws that imply your car must have power to the wheels until the last 5-10 feet or something. The idea is that in a manual, if something happens and you need to speed up, you're already in a gear. It also actually helps fuel economy. Obviously getting back into a gear doesn't take as long with DSG, but the point still stands.

1. Any Ferrari that has paddle shifters only has the "pull both for neutral" feature - the Enzo was the first to have it. Also, both paddles have to be held for 2-3 secs to engage neutral. If you 'accidentally' hold both paddles down for that long, I recommend switching to 10-2 position . But seriously, having the delay offsets the issue you forsee. A quick mash of both paddles at the same time does nothing. Plus, if anything, the Ferrari paddles are easier for some people to hit as they are much larger. I get the argument that they're farther back as opposed to mounted to the spokes of the wheel, but for me that's just semantics. I really don't find myself hitting the paddles accidentally.

2. I'm just theorizing, but would it really be that hard to reverse the programming for the two buttons? I don't know, but worst case why not just swap the two physically? I realize I'm showing ignorance for the majicks of teh DSG, but it's just a thought that either of those could possibly work.

3. I agree. Control your foot and resist the urge to stand on your gas pedal like a 16-year-old kid.

4. I suspect this law has less to do with safety and more to do with wider selective enforcement. There is really no way for police to have any idea whether or not your car is in neutral coming to the stop, so there is no way for them to prove "there was no power going to the wheels." I do not doubt that such laws are on the books, but just like speed limits have more to do with revenue generation than safety at this point (certain situations, i.e. school zones, excepted), I suspect these laws actually operate in practice as ways for police to create a reason for a stop based off some other suspicion of activity. A great example of similar enforcement of laws would be "how long is considered an acceptable pause at a stop sign?" Or, "how long does a blinker have to be on before a turn?" I doubt police officers time stops with a stop watch, nor do they measure out the exact distance a driver's turn signal is on (in IL, the law is 500ft.). Just my .02 on the matter, but if the DSG is never truly in neutral (there's always a gear lined up, the clutches are simply disengaged) then I fail to see the real issue here too.

Just some points of consideration