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    Thread: Learning the Hard way...

    1. Junior Member Ark83's Avatar
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      04-26-2012 12:25 AM #1
      I have been a reader of this forum for a few months now. It has helped me with a whole bunch of DIY's for my 2005.5 Jetta (oil, spark plugs, tranny fluid, filters. etc) It also gave me to bug to start tinkering with the car. (this was my downfall) I installed short shifter, and a tranny mount insert and I have been having a great time driving the car. SO then I purchased a light weight crank pulley and I just attempted to install it. Once I got to the stock pulley I noticed that the bolts were really rusty. I attempted to remove them with hand tools but I could not brake the bolts free. I decided to scrap that attempt figuring that I would use some air tools at my buddy's house tomorrow. I put the car back together and when I went to start her up, no dice.
      I did some research (in frantic disbelief and dismay) and I fear that I must have rotated the crank and totally effed the timing chain position.

      I am posting here in hope that someone can tell me that I didn't eff up as bad as I think I did.

      I always thought about joining the forum... just not for this reason... Derp.

    2. Member Dronks's Avatar
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      04-26-2012 01:16 AM #2
      If you turned the engine in reverse and never spun it the correct way afterwards, it could have jumped teeth when it cranked over.

      You spun it counterclockwise when you were looking at the crank didn't you?

      Sorry

      I could be wrong though.
      If it sounds like sarcasm, it probably is.

    3. Junior Member Ark83's Avatar
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      04-26-2012 08:33 AM #3
      yep. /sigh

      Is it really that easy to screw up the timing?

      could it be anything else? Any troubleshooting things I should do to confirm this?


      Wishing I had an undo button for life...

    4. Member itskohler's Avatar
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      04-26-2012 09:09 AM #4
      Can't you just rotate it back the other direction?

      I honestly don't know much about the 2005.5 engine, but logic tells me that if you turned it to the left and nothing happened, than you should be able to turn it back.

      Although I think logic and VWs dont mix all that well.

    5. 04-26-2012 09:15 AM #5
      I'm not a mechanic but i really cant see that being what happened. First of all, you are not as strong as the engine. Second of all, the crank is what normally turns the timing chain so how would you turning the crank ruin the timing chain? The only way i could imagine that happening would be some really horrible luck or the timing chain was going anyways. i would say that it is likely something else you did to it. Like knock a sensor loose or something.

    6. Member GTACanuck's Avatar
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      04-26-2012 09:38 AM #6
      Quote Originally Posted by DerekH View Post
      I'm not a mechanic but i really cant see that being what happened. First of all, you are not as strong as the engine. Second of all, the crank is what normally turns the timing chain so how would you turning the crank ruin the timing chain? The only way i could imagine that happening would be some really horrible luck or the timing chain was going anyways. i would say that it is likely something else you did to it. Like knock a sensor loose or something.
      I have to side with Derek on this one. Do you have a scantool to see if any codes come up?

    7. Member Dronks's Avatar
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      04-26-2012 10:56 AM #7
      The theory behind my "diagnosis" is when the engine is turned in reverse, tension is lost in the timing chain because the crank is pulling the chain the other way. Then with out turning the engine over normally by hand, he tried starting the car and the sudden jolt to the timing assembly caused the chain to skip. Same thing can happen in a timing belt engine.

      Google it, there's some information about this happening.
      If it sounds like sarcasm, it probably is.

    8. 04-26-2012 11:16 AM #8
      The timing chain isn't going to be able to do that unless there is slack that the tensioners cant take up. In which case it would happen anyways.

    9. Junior Member Ark83's Avatar
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      04-26-2012 11:59 AM #9
      I didn't see a CEL last night but I'll scan it when I get home from work.

      I didn't think I did anything that bad. I literally just turned the pulley. I cant imagine its that easy to make it skip a tooth.

      Maybe I rotated the Flywheel to a position where the starter motor can't engage it?

    10. Member thygreyt's Avatar
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      04-26-2012 12:02 PM #10
      i'm fairly sure you are supposed to move the crank (with a ratchet) when you want to time the engine.

      you set it to a mark that should be there, and set the cams on a certain position... then install everything.

      again, i'm just fairly sure

    11. Junior Member Ark83's Avatar
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      04-26-2012 12:16 PM #11
      Quote Originally Posted by Dronks View Post
      The theory behind my "diagnosis" is when the engine is turned in reverse, tension is lost in the timing chain because the crank is pulling the chain the other way. Then with out turning the engine over normally by hand, he tried starting the car and the sudden jolt to the timing assembly caused the chain to skip. Same thing can happen in a timing belt engine.

      Google it, there's some information about this happening.
      I found this image of the chain assembly from here: http://forums.fourtitude.com/showthr...-with-06-Jetta

      Wouldn't the tensioners work no matter which direction the chain was turned?
      Those sprockets are deep I doubt I applied that much force to it. I wonder what else it could be.


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      04-26-2012 12:47 PM #12
      it could give slack when rotated but i'd say its rare and maybe not possible to skip a tooth...and one tooth, it would start but just be making lovely noises....
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    13. Junior Member Ark83's Avatar
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      04-26-2012 10:26 PM #13
      So I feel like it is something wrong with the timing.
      When I try to start the car the flywheel turns and all of the belts turn but there is no ignition. The exhaust smells like gas and there is an unnerving tink every time it makes a rotation.

      There are no codes but idk if the codes would show up without the car being started?

      I have read on here that its more cost effective to put a 2008+ 2.5L in it rather then replace the timing chain and valves / pistons if they are damaged.

      Anyone know of a place to get that engine / place that will swap it near northeastern NJ?

    14. 04-26-2012 11:01 PM #14
      Have you done a compression test yet? You can buy a cheap tester for like 25-30 bucks. That would let you know if you bent your valves, or that maybe it only skipped a tooth. Have you checked to make sure your getting spark? My money is that it is something simple, after you do some basic testing if you still don't have an answer I would take it to a shop before you look for a new motor. Your probably gonna be fine.

    15. Member TylerO28's Avatar
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      04-27-2012 01:24 AM #15
      ok did you put your belts back on? did you check your coilpacks? did you remove and sparkplugs to allow the motor to turn over easier? how about you take the battery negative off, and wait for a bit. then restart.... novel idea... charge the battery?
      god i love my car. it may not be fast, but it's crazy fun!



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      04-27-2012 07:25 AM #16
      Quote Originally Posted by Ark83 View Post
      So I feel like it is something wrong with the timing.
      When I try to start the car the flywheel turns and all of the belts turn but there is no ignition. The exhaust smells like gas and there is an unnerving tink every time it makes a rotation.

      There are no codes but idk if the codes would show up without the car being started?

      I have read on here that its more cost effective to put a 2008+ 2.5L in it rather then replace the timing chain and valves / pistons if they are damaged.

      Anyone know of a place to get that engine / place that will swap it near northeastern NJ?
      Look up eurotech, either its in paramus or mahwah I don't remember...good people there.
      .doTuning |CTS Turbo | GoAPR | IE | Billet GT3071R

    17. Banner Advertiser nothing-leaves-stock's Avatar
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      04-27-2012 08:35 AM #17
      we are near allentown pa. 15 mins from NJ boarder off RT78
      www.nothingleavesstock.com
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      Email us at sales@nothingleavesstock.com 5780 Main St. Center Valley PA 18034 610 282 5487

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      04-27-2012 11:43 AM #18
      Quote Originally Posted by nothing-leaves-stock View Post
      we are near allentown pa. 15 mins from NJ boarder off RT78
      as much as i like u guys, he said northeast dirty jerz...thats at least 1.5hr ride.

      ive sent a few people ur way too.
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    19. 04-27-2012 11:50 AM #19
      You can rotate your engine w.e direction you want by hand, no it won't slack the chain enough to skip teeth.

      Never have I seen a car skip teeth from engine rotation. I mean maybe just maybe a extreamly worn tensioner could cause the effect (and even than i find kt hard to believe) but its an 05....so i doubt that's the case.

      Is it cranking healthy? Not kicking back?

      Bottom line. You probably knocked a electrical connector loose or forgot to plug something in.

      Couldn't tell ya what because I don't own a wv (e30 and a 73 charger...lurk here for the wheels mainly lol)

      Where are you located exactly?

      Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
      Last edited by flg; 04-27-2012 at 11:56 AM.

    20. Member thygreyt's Avatar
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      04-27-2012 12:01 PM #20
      i too think it might just be that somthing was overlooked or a broken thing... meaning: a broken connector, or cable. but nothing major nor mechanical.

    21. Junior Member Ark83's Avatar
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      04-27-2012 04:10 PM #21
      brought it to a mechanic, took the valve cover off... found a snapped valve... gg... lol


      Looks like the timing chain did actually go.

    22. 04-27-2012 04:28 PM #22
      Might have just been luck of the draw.

      Just a heads up is this a reputable mechanic? Did he show you the broken valve? There are a lot of crooks out there

      Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

    23. Member Dronks's Avatar
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      04-29-2012 02:29 PM #23
      Lesson learned the hard way, don't rotate in the wrong direction without turning it over a few times by hand in the right direction.

      Are you you going to repair it or pick up a newer engine?
      If it sounds like sarcasm, it probably is.

    24. 04-29-2012 03:53 PM #24
      There is a thread on the TDI Club about someone that tried to bump start their 2.5 in reverse only they put it in 2nd. they jumped time and ended up replacing the engine.

      From what I read and figured out from my Bentley's, is what happens when turning backwards the force of the chain is pulling on the tensioner, the tensioner is compressed causing slack in the chain, allowing the engine to jump time. The dreaded "ticking sound" when turning over with the starter is the giveaway the timing has changed.

      Added: In 2008 VW made some improvements to the timing chain system, so a newer motor would be the way to go since yours is a 2005 and is now trashed.
      Last edited by stratclub; 04-29-2012 at 04:12 PM.

    25. 04-29-2012 03:57 PM #25
      Quote Originally Posted by Dronks View Post
      Lesson learned the hard way, don't rotate in the wrong direction without turning it over a few times by hand in the right direction.

      Are you you going to repair it or pick up a newer engine?
      Actually, the lesson learned on these engines is to NEVER turn them backwards. Turning by hand in the correct direction after turning backwards isn't going to magically correct jumped timing.

    26. Member Dronks's Avatar
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      04-29-2012 04:13 PM #26
      Quote Originally Posted by stratclub View Post
      Actually, the lesson learned on these engines is to NEVER turn them backwards. Turning by hand in the correct direction after turning backwards isn't going to magically correct jumped timing.
      I don't think you understand what I wrote. Turning the crank clockwise a few times will take the slack out of the chain caused by turning the crank counterclockwise. It probably jumped when he tried to start the car and not when he turned the crank counterclockwise by hand.
      If it sounds like sarcasm, it probably is.

    27. 04-29-2012 04:26 PM #27
      Well ya. If you don't turn it backward very far, you might get lucky but if you went backwards far enough to skip 1 tooth, then the odds are really against you that it will slip back the other way simply by turning it by hand.

      At least turning forward by hand would tell you if it had jumped time without causing damage from valve to piston contact.
      Last edited by stratclub; 04-29-2012 at 04:29 PM.

    28. 04-29-2012 09:37 PM #28
      You would know if it skipped a tooth while you were turning it by hand.

    29. Junior Member Ark83's Avatar
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      04-30-2012 10:38 PM #29
      So after some further digging into the engine, they discovered that the upper timing chain tensioner was defective and had stretched the upper chain to the full range of the tensioner. SO basically my messing with the pulley just exposed a problem that was about ready to happen anyway.

      Long story short, called VW of America and told them the story. After lots of back and forth they agreed to cover the cost of all parts for a rebuild and I would have to cover labor.

      Anyone else out there with a 2005.5 - 2007 2.5L with the timing chain instead of the belt might want to keep this in the back of their head.

      Ironically I read this thread http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...t=timing+chain a month ago.

    30. 04-30-2012 11:55 PM #30
      Quote Originally Posted by Ark83 View Post
      So after some further digging into the engine, they discovered that the upper timing chain tensioner was defective and had stretched the upper chain to the full range of the tensioner. SO basically my messing with the pulley just exposed a problem that was about ready to happen anyway.

      Long story short, called VW of America and told them the story. After lots of back and forth they agreed to cover the cost of all parts for a rebuild and I would have to cover labor.

      Anyone else out there with a 2005.5 - 2007 2.5L with the timing chain instead of the belt might want to keep this in the back of their head.

      Ironically I read this thread http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...t=timing+chain a month ago.
      Lucky you, they are barely willing to help me out at all.

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      05-01-2012 12:13 AM #31
      FWIW, when i installed mine on a 2008 rabbit, i turned the heck out of that thing in every direction trying to get those bolts loose.

      After some creative vice gripping, old one came off, new one went on, and she started up like nothing had ever happened.
      '08 Rabbit- P-Flo, Torque Insert, C2 SRI+Tune, USP DP w/HF Cat, Lightweight Flywheel, BFI Engine&Trans Stage 1 Mounts

    32. Junior Member Ark83's Avatar
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      05-01-2012 09:30 AM #32
      heh good to know...

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