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    VWVortex


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    Thread: Alignment advice for FWD

    1. Member AutoX Matt's Avatar
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      04-26-2012 08:20 PM #1
      I run a Scirocco 16V in STC. My front alignment is currently at -1.1 front camber and +0.40 front toe. I think I want to keep the camber but go to -0.25 front toe.

      Thre rest of my handing setup is: shine real street front and rear springs (200lb front & 110lb rear with stock ride height), no front sway bar, a stock 16V rear sway bar, an SCCH rear toe-control kit, Boge Pro-Gas shocks, 205/50-15 Yokohama AD08s on 15x7s, neuspeed upper front tie bar, autotech upper rear tie bar, polyurethane front control arm bushings, and poly rear axle beam mounts. I have poly upper rear shock mounts & GoKraut's front cross member brace waiting to be installed.

      I'm looking for a good autocross setup that is still viable as an occasional daily driver.

      Advice please?
      Thanks in advance,
      Matt
      Last edited by AutoX Matt; 04-27-2012 at 12:28 PM.

    2. 04-26-2012 11:53 PM #2
      My rabbit is a dedicated auto-x car and I've tried many different alignment settings.

      Toe is what really "eats" tires more than camber, but here is my suggestion for a reasonably streetable setup.

      Front:
      camber -1.75 to -2.0
      slight toe OUT 1/16 to 1/8 inch (too much toe out and the car will be a handful on the interstate and follow every rut in the road)
      max caster (not factory adjustable but they make offset derlin bushings that are very reasonable)

      Rear:
      not adjustable from factory but definitely worth using shims.
      camber -1.0 to -1.5
      zero toe
      caster n/a

      Everyone has their personal preferences but these settings work. I ran these settings for quite some time while still driving the car on the streets and tire wear was very acceptable and the handling was still very nice.
      Last edited by MusicCityGTI; 04-26-2012 at 11:57 PM.

    3. Member AutoX Matt's Avatar
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      04-27-2012 10:52 AM #3
      Quote Originally Posted by MusicCityGTI View Post
      slight toe OUT 1/16 to 1/8 inch (too much toe out and the car will be a handful on the interstate and follow every rut in the road)
      max caster (not factory adjustable but they make offset derlin bushings that are very reasonable)

      Rear:
      not adjustable from factory but definitely worth using shims.
      It's already "a handful on the interstate and follows every rut in the road." Is that because I have so much toe-in currently? Changing to 1/8 toe-out will be about 1/3 of the current absolute toe value, so will this make the wandering better or worse?

      Where can I get the derlin caster bushings and the rear shims?

      Thanks a lot. Very helpful.

    4. Member Roadkilled78's Avatar
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      04-27-2012 11:48 AM #4
      The convention I am used to is that positive toe is OUT.

      Are you certain you have 0.40* of toe IN right now? Or are you reading alignment results that cite it as +0.40*? If so, that would sure explain the wandering on the highway.
      Quote Originally Posted by Hogan View Post
      What kind of ass backwards world do you live in where your Miata is broken and your Alfa is your reliable source of transportation?

    5. Member AutoX Matt's Avatar
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      04-27-2012 12:34 PM #5
      Quote Originally Posted by Roadkilled78 View Post
      The convention I am used to is that positive toe is OUT.

      Are you certain you have 0.40* of toe IN right now? Or are you reading alignment results that cite it as +0.40*? If so, that would sure explain the wandering on the highway.
      The alignment sheet said +0.40. When I asked a tire shop they said that was toe-in & when I checked wikipedia it agreed. Well, I just checked visually by looking straight down from above the fender and it is definitely toe out. Is 0.40 toe out too aggressive for autox? I think I'd like to reduce it for street.

      Any spring, shock, and swaybar recommendations?

      Thanks.

    6. Member Roadkilled78's Avatar
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      04-27-2012 02:25 PM #6
      That's aggressive. Possibly too much. How does it turn in now?

      I remember reading that the shine kit recommends no front sway bar. But you'll almost certainly want one on there for autocross.
      Last edited by Roadkilled78; 04-27-2012 at 02:28 PM.
      Quote Originally Posted by Hogan View Post
      What kind of ass backwards world do you live in where your Miata is broken and your Alfa is your reliable source of transportation?

    7. Member AutoX Matt's Avatar
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      04-27-2012 03:45 PM #7
      Quote Originally Posted by Roadkilled78 View Post
      That's aggressive. Possibly too much. How does it turn in now?

      I remember reading that the shine kit recommends no front sway bar. But you'll almost certainly want one on there for autocross.
      Turns in pretty sharply and immediately.

      The advice I've been given in the scirocco forum convinced me I should put the stock front bar back on, that for autox the stock rear bar is better than the autotech or neuspeed ones, and that I need stiffer springs. How much stiffer is yet to be determined.

      Oh, and the shine rear bar is never touching my axle again. To see why: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...ear-axle-Help.

    8. 04-27-2012 09:03 PM #8
      Visually looking at the toe does not tell you if the toe is in, out or straight. The fenders aren't straight. The only way to check is to box the car or read the alignment sheet. A lot of toe in can also cause the car to follow ruts.

    9. 04-28-2012 11:18 PM #9
      One additional piece of advice. When you do decide to take your car into the shop to have it aligned, don't just choose the shop down the street or a chain store. Yes the may have great equipment, but ask the auto-x guys who does their alignments and you may find someone ALOT better that will take the time are really do it right.

      I've done my own alignments, had them done at big box tire stores but from here on out the only one who will align my cars is one of the guys that I race with. He owns his own shop and they truly take their time and do it right. It may cost a bit more, but worth every extra dollar.

    10. Member AutoX Matt's Avatar
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      04-29-2012 12:28 PM #10
      I'm going to take it to Redline Speed Worx. They specialize in repair, fabrication, and performance modifications for VW, Audi, BMW, and Porsche.

      Anyone have an opinion about going to H&R Race springs, Bilstein Sport shocks, and stock front & rear sway bars?

      Thanks.

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      04-30-2012 09:35 AM #11
      Quote Originally Posted by AutoX Matt View Post
      I'm going to take it to Redline Speed Worx. They specialize in repair, fabrication, and performance modifications for VW, Audi, BMW, and Porsche.

      Anyone have an opinion about going to H&R Race springs, Bilstein Sport shocks, and stock front & rear sway bars?

      Thanks.
      My biggest problem with any of the aftermarket springs is they lower the car. H&R springs tend to lower quite a bit. They're stiffer, but not stiff enough to make up for the geometry.

      Do some searching of posts by Tech Ed, pyce and DIAF.
      Last edited by Ian F; 04-30-2012 at 09:37 AM.

    12. Member AutoX Matt's Avatar
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      04-30-2012 05:34 PM #12
      Quote Originally Posted by Ian F View Post
      My biggest problem with any of the aftermarket springs is they lower the car. H&R springs tend to lower quite a bit. They're stiffer, but not stiff enough to make up for the geometry.

      Do some searching of posts by Tech Ed, pyce and DIAF.
      I know about messing up suspension geometry w/ lowering too much. That's why I went with Shine Racing's "Real Street" suspension. It didn't lower the car at all. Problem is that the rear bar should be labeled a race-only part as it breaks rear axle beams & the springs are too soft. Surprisingly H&R Race springs for a Scirocco only lower it by 1.0" front and rear (the least of any of their Scirocco kits). From what I've heard from autocrossers and road racers who've used them, a scirocco can be lowered even more than that without problems. ST coilovers at max height lower more than that.

      So do you just stick with stock springs? Or get ones custom made?

    13. 05-04-2012 01:15 AM #13
      What is your budget? You are on street tires also?

      When I drove the car on the streets more, I had Bilstein HD (use Koni if you want adjustability), ground control coil kit, Eibach 400lb springs, big sway bars front and rear. Worked great for many years and still rode decent on the streets. Depending on your budget, this is a great setup, rides nice, height adjustable (corner balance!!!) and can be done for about the same price as the other options you mentioned.

      Now have Bilstein Group 1 coilovers, 400lb front springs and 600lb rears with big front sway bar and only the stock rear bar. Getting rid of the big rear bar made total sense b/c now when I take hard turns, I have 4 tires on the pavement providing traction instead of just 3. This made a huge difference on course going thru slaloms. If you ditch the rear bar, you need to compensate for that with increased spring rates or else have lots of body roll thus the 600lb rears now. The feel of the car is definitely different than before and took some getting used to, but my times are clearly faster.

      With street tires, your setup would likely be different so that needs to be factored into the equation also. Most of the "kits" will have very soft springs compared to what you really want for auto-x. I guess you need to decide is this an auto-x car that you drive on the streets or a street car that you auto-x sometimes. Based on that decision, your suspension setup can be skewed in the overall correct direction for you.

      Whatever you choose, make sure the spring rates you get are compatible with the shocks you choose. It took several calls, but when I bought my shocks I was able to speak directly to an engineer with Bilstein. He was extremely informative and knew exactly what I was looking for. Although my shocks are not adjustable, they have been spot on for my setup.

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