Trying to recover my 12V VR6...

[Brockazilla]

Hey guys, I just picked up a VR6 the other day with a blown engine. The guy rolled up to our yard today and i offered him $500 for it. The engine has 220,000 kms on it and the guys says his son bought it with a bad timing chain and ran into the ground and overheated it. Thats all i know. I tried starting it and it turns over easily but doesnt start. The rotation seems to get faster but the timing is definitely off.

I would like to rebuild it but i dont know if it will be worth it. Obviously if it has a warped head it wont be worth it. I can get another engine from the wrecker for $1500 but i would like to find out if it will cheaper to rebuild it. Im pretty mechanically inclined and work on my Toyota 3.4L V6 all the time but im not familiar with this VR6.

Im trying to figure out where to start first. Thanks for any advice!

[Brockazilla]

I scanned it and got these codes. Should i go ahead and replace the sensor?

[Stangrcr1]

Sounds and looks like at least one chain jumped or broke. As such, probably a lot of bent valves.

Do a compression test first. If zero compression, plan on big $$$.

[masterqaz]

Id pull the intake, vc, upper t-chain cover and then the head once you do confirm timing has skipped. Check the cylinders/pistons if good find a cheap head for 150 bucks and slap it on top and roll.

[Peter Badore]

Id pull the intake, vc, upper t-chain cover and then the head once you do confirm timing has skipped. Check the cylinders/pistons if good find a cheap head for 150 bucks and slap it on top and roll.

With 220,000 kms you will need to pull the transmission, clutch (if a manual) , flywheel and lower chain cover and replace all the chains, guides, seal and tensioners, and retime the crankshaft, intermediate shaft and cams. There is an excellent DIY for this repair which will help if you for your first time. Do it right or you will be seeing more bent valves and cam misalignment DTCs.

[Brockazilla]

With 220,000 kms you will need to pull the transmission, clutch (if a manual) , flywheel and lower chain cover and replace all the chains, guides, seal and tensioners, and retime the crankshaft, intermediate shaft and cams. There is an excellent DIY for this repair which will help if you for your first time. Do it right or you will be seeing more bent valves and cam misalignment DTCs.

oh boy...

[masterqaz]

oh boy...

while what he said is true, it should live another 220 000 with new chains/clutch. This is assuming everything looks good down low, which Im betting will be.

Or you could get a 500 dollar engine in unknown condition and gamble. Do it all yourself and save a bunch is the best option.

[Stangrcr1]

I just did a full rebuild on my daughters VR6 and $3k later, it runs. This all started from overheating and a blown head gasket.

Start with a compression check before opening the motor. Easy to do and minimal work before deciding to rip the head off.

[masterqaz]

I just did a full rebuild on my daughters VR6 and $3k later, it runs. This all started from overheating and a blown head gasket.

Start with a compression check before opening the motor. Easy to do and minimal work before deciding to rip the head off.

Thats a good idea although if its jumped some timing it will through off the compression reading.

Let me guess she noticed it starting to smoke and just kept driving till it stopped smoking haha

3k to rebuild.... what did you have done?

[Stangrcr1]

I suggest the compression test first and take a look through the plug holes. When I did this I saw water in #3 cylinder....

Ha ha. No smoke. She kept driving with the temp gage pegged. Anyway What was done? Damn near everything, and still have a P1136. Somewhat of a writeup here: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...aughters-Jetta

[vwmaniac16vr6]

this sounds more like a broken timing chain, i'd do a compression test pull the head check the pistons for cracks and do the chains and replace the head any 95-02 vr6 head, make sure to swap cams if from an earlier 95-99 those heads go for like $100 t-chain kit under $200 head gasket and head bolts are also under $100, you shouldnt need to touch the bottom end as long as the pistons arent cracked. some small dings are not a big deal.

[hav0c]

Reworking a head is pretty expensive, but a friend of mine purchased a head from cylinder-heads.com about 1 & 1/2 years ago for his 12 VR6 and hasn't had any problems with it. I just checked because I'm in need of head work, and for the 12v Vr6 they charge $400. with core, and 2 year warranty. Or there's a bunch on classifieds right now for $200-$300. I haven't decided what I'll do yet.

I'd be willing to bet your bottom end is still good, but at least do a compression test to make sure. If you're good there, I'd just swap the head and upgrade the timing components & clutch.

If you do your own work you'll probably finish it for less than $1000.

But a VR for $500 can't be beat,... except by my FREE VR. Mine was in the back yard of the house I'm renting, I asked the landlord about it and later that night the title was in my hand.

[Brockazilla]

Thanks for the tips guys! Im planning on doing the compression test sometime next week. Its hard finding time between my job, building my tacoma and this new VR6. Ill keep you guys posted!

Question: I heard theres a timing chain near the rear of the motor. Someone told me i have to drop the tranny to access it? Is this true or is this for another engine?

[aestheticcataclysm]

I am actually in the same boat as OP. Just dropped my motor and pulled my cylinder head, timing chain covers, etc and oil pan to discover that the timing chain guides had completely disintegrated and that the lower timing chain snapped when a piece of the plastic guide made it's way into a tooth on the crank shaft sprocket. Sent the valves slamming into the pistons, left some marks on the piston. This is an interference motor and I've been doing a lot of research. I'm seeing around the internets that it's pretty rare to snap the chain without damaging the valves.

So as of now I am looking at a cyl head rebuild with valve job, new valves, new everything, probably $5-600 with all labor. I'm going to do cams if I can afford it.

Possibly looking at engine rebuild with new pistons. My cylinder walls look fantastic. Just learned how to inspect crank journal, fingers crossed on that. Going to strip the accessories the block and take it to somebody who knows these engines to inspect before spending the big $ on a rebuild.

I have been using the DIY's to tear down the car and I just ordered the Bentley manual.

Starter motor removal
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?2269482

intake manifold removal
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...k-on-a-12V-VR6

transmission removal
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?2703042

cyl head gasket replacement
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...Reinstallation

service carrier in "lock position" (I actually removed the front end, since my a/c had been evacuated due to a broken a/c line, it's only two hoses to the compressor with a 6mm allen bolt to remove the whole thing after this DIY)
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?2368291

Timing Chain and guides DIY
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?1264409

Search my posts for recent threads about this issue that may be helpful for you. It is MUCH easier to drop the motor out of the bottom for this if you feel like you have enough damage to warrant that. You'll get lots of space to work, and for me that ensures I'll be more focused on taking my time to ensure the job is done right rather than over that one damn bolt I can't get loose.

Get an engine hoist, I made the mistake of using floor jacks and won't be doing that again. It's easier to remove with the transmission still attached. Go slow, bag and label every bolt and connector and hose and line you take loose, label all the hoses and harnesses and connectors in the engine bay. I've been making notes of all of the things that potentially fail on our cars and addressing them with the engine out. When you're done, you'll hopefully have a very stout and reliable car for FAR less than what you would spend with a shop, or on going through a junk yard mystery motor, or buying a new car with what you'll get from selling this one.

The list of other stuff I'm tending to and issues I found while tearing into the car is about three pages long now, including stuff I'd like to modify and all kinds of stripped bolts that rotten mechanics put back in.

Good luck man. Keep us posted.

[aestheticcataclysm]

Question: I heard theres a timing chain near the rear of the motor. Someone told me i have to drop the tranny to access it? Is this true or is this for another engine?

Yes, that's true. This motor has two timing chains. The lower chain rides a gear attached to the crank shaft to drive an intermediate shaft with two sprockets on it. The intermediate shaft spins the oil pump impeller shaft and also drives the camshafts with the second sprocket up to the top of the motor. When chains fail, your timing goes and your valves don't open and close in sync with the motion of the piston, and piston contact can occur. The upper timing chain cover is hidden by the intake manifold and all the good stuff on the driver's side of the engine bay, including the coil pack. The lower timing chain cover is mostly covered by the transmission, and it must be removed in order to access it. You will want to pull the oil pan as well to inspect for timing chain debris, which you will probably find. I've been told to replace the oil pump (insurance) or at least use the bentley manual to inspect if for wear if the pickup is full of debris from the chain failure.

This isn't so difficult with forum support. I did it by myself completely without issue, and this is my first time doing anything major to a car. I've dropped a 4l60e out of an LT1 camaro but that's about it.

A sharpie, a good set of pick tools, lots of ziploc bags and patience are your friends with all the electrical connectors and stuff in this car.

http://www.aestheticcataclysm.com/GU...-03-27_345.jpg

[Brockazilla]

Wow, so much info! Thanks

So today i finally did a compression test. Removed all plugs and started with cyl #2. No compression, not even a needle twitch. So i kept going with the rest of the cylinders...

Cyl #1 - 120 psi
Cyl #2 - 0
Cyl #3 - 120
Cyl #4 - 0
Cyl #5 - 50
Cyl #6 - 0

Half of the plugs looked pretty fouled and the other half looked like they werent giving a good combustion. When i was turning the engine over i had all cylinders open and i put my hand over them to feel the air pressure. Very inconsistent pressure coming out of them.

So ive come to the conclusion that theres most likely alot of damage. My question to all of you is, is it worth it to start tearing it down? Should i get a rebuild kit? Or just get a full plug and play engine? What king of damage am i looking at?

Thanks!

[Einkaufswagen]

I would check the head at least before going full blown crazy on a new motor or anything. From what i am reading i am not 100% convinced that it has a totaly trashed head. Especialy if it still turns over. A bad 02 or Crankshaft position sensor or even a bad speed sensor will cause a vr6 to sound like it has skiped a tooth or gone out of timimg when realy the mechanical timing is OK but the electrical timing is off...

Better to spend 100 or so to check the head than to spend $1000's to replace the engine.

I made a similar mistake where i thought a engine had blown the timing but it turned out to be a bad 02. Basicly it turned over but the engine would misfire backfire dump tons of gass and not start... all because of a 02...

Edit: also if you had somone with Vag-Com pull your codes that would be a god send. IT will tell you exactly whats wrong give or take.

[Brockazilla]

So what should be my next step? How would i get the head checked? Do i remove it and bring it to a machine shop?

Id rather not put $100+ into this engine if it ends up in the garbage. Should i start pulling off covers to see what the damage looks like if there is any? Should i take a look at the timing chain?

I really appreciate all this help guys. Any and all info is very helpful.

Thanks!

[aestheticcataclysm]

Wow, so much info! Thanks

So today i finally did a compression test. Removed all plugs and started with cyl #2. No compression, not even a needle twitch. So i kept going with the rest of the cylinders...

Cyl #1 - 120 psi
Cyl #2 - 0
Cyl #3 - 120
Cyl #4 - 0
Cyl #5 - 50
Cyl #6 - 0

Half of the plugs looked pretty fouled and the other half looked like they werent giving a good combustion. When i was turning the engine over i had all cylinders open and i put my hand over them to feel the air pressure. Very inconsistent pressure coming out of them.

So ive come to the conclusion that theres most likely alot of damage. My question to all of you is, is it worth it to start tearing it down? Should i get a rebuild kit? Or just get a full plug and play engine? What king of damage am i looking at?

Thanks!

The only thing my vag com scan told me was that I had a camshaft position sensor error.

To me, it was worth it to start tearing into. For what I would get if I sold the car, I would not get a vehicle even close to the reliability as one that I had just gone through and fixed every problem I saw from top to bottom. Plus my car is cosmic green, and I really like it.

If you are getting compression like that, you have to remove the cylinder head. Get to reading the guides I posted earlier to see the kind of work that is involved. I am guessing that bare minimum you need the complete timing chain kit (ECS Tuning sells this with everything you need, the deluxe kit has all new bolts and studs etc in addition to the chain and guides) and likely a valve job. I'm a fan of overkill, so I'd say have the valves replaced along with the seals and maybe the lifters. You won't know what kind of condition the pistons or the block itself is in until you get the cylinder head off. Worst case scenario, you know what you are getting rid of should you decide to go with a donor engine. And taking it apart doesn't cost you anything but time. You should also take the oil pan off and inspect the oil pump for foreign object damage. I would be willing to bet your pan is full of chain guide debris.

So parts that you will likely need:
Gasket kit (http://www.mjmautohaus.com/catalog/p...oducts_id=1918)
Cylinder Head bolts (these can only be used once unless you upgrade to ARP bolts)
fluids (good time to change them all, and upgrade trans to redline MT90)
timing chain kit (i'd go with the deluxe one here: http://www.ecstuning.com/Volkswagen-...Timing/ES8805/)
Valve job and whatever parts you need for that.
If your vehicle does not have the green top coolant temperature sensor, now would be the time to change it. Also a very good time to upgrade to an aluminum crack pipe, better motor mounts, it will be easy to access the water pump and all belt driven accessories, you can fix the starter grind if yours has that.

Also, the bottom end on these motors is very sturdy. People turbo these things well beyond the limits of sanity and they take a lot of punishment. I am hearing over and over again from machine shops that even though I need to replace pistons, since my cylinder bores look good, I will be fine disassembling the motor and cleaning it and honing the cylinders if everything checks out to spec.



The forums, the DIY guides, and the manual is your friend. Good luck.

[curiositywasframed]

With the spark plugs out, see if you can rotate the engine with a 27mm socket by the crank pully. If you feel like you're hitting something hard, don't force it. That could be hitting a valve. If the engine turns smoothly, then head is probably okay.

The cheapest and easiest thing to check next is to remove the valve cover to look and see if the engine is out of time and at least be able to see a part of your timing chain to check its condition. You can do this without any parts whatsoever because it's all o-rings to remove the valve cover.


To do this, you can unhook the airbox from the throttle body, unhook the short "S" hose that goes from the valve cover to the TB (crankcase vent hose right behind the oil fill cap). Then you remove the 6 6mm intake bolts from the front of the intake and the 2 6mm bolts that hold the intake on just behind the valve cover. After it is loose, you can rotate the intake and prop it up out of your way so you don't have to disconnect all the coolant and vacuum lines from the TB and intake. The valve cover itself has I think 8 10mm captured bolts and two 10mm nuts then pulls straight up.

Once there, follow the timing chain diy to check if it is in time. If it is only one tooth out, you might just get away with it.

[Brockazilla]

^Awesome!

Thanks for the tip. Ill try that first and see how everything looks. Ill take lots of pictures too so you can see what im looking at and in case you guys spot something I dont.

Sent from my keyboard

[Brockazilla]

Thread Revival!!!



Update. Pulled the car into the shop and started ripping it apart. Bumper came off first. Drained the rad. Front end came off pretty easily. Pulled the A/C lines off and got sprayed in the face. Good times...

Planning on doing the motor swap. Found a couple VR6 engines for around $1000. Should be able to get good money out of the car if i sell it.

[krakoski813]

just did a swap with a donor engine in my mk4 vr. I got an engine from a local place that parts out vws for 1300 shipped. I just got it in and running in around 2 weeks of working casually on it. its not that bad if you just bag and label all your bolts , the wiring harness falls right into place, and the hoses are imposible to mess up. at somepoint you will be saying to yourself. "what the hell did I get myself into" but its not bad. the how to's on the forum are amazing. good luck man ill stay posted in here

[Brockazilla]

just did a swap with a donor engine in my mk4 vr. I got an engine from a local place that parts out vws for 1300 shipped. I just got it in and running in around 2 weeks of working casually on it. its not that bad if you just bag and label all your bolts , the wiring harness falls right into place, and the hoses are imposible to mess up. at somepoint you will be saying to yourself. "what the hell did I get myself into" but its not bad. the how to's on the forum are amazing. good luck man ill stay posted in here

Good to know. Thanks for the tips!

How did the Engine and Tranny removal go? Did you run into any problems?

[krakoski813]

well I didnt completely remove my ac compressor or lock carrier, just moved them off to the side and the compressor stayed hooked to the carrier. so that upper ac hose with the aluminum cylinder on it that sits near the top left was in the way the most. but I just used an engine hoist and pulled the motor/tranny together. and then moved the flywheel/clutch/tranny over to the new engine. I put the block/tranny in together got all the mounts bolted up. get the hoist out of the way and then added all of the accessories onto the engine once it was in. the only thing that I had to remove because it got in the way of something else on reassembly was the belt tensioner/alternator. the alternator cant go on untill the intake manifold is on because it blocks one of the bolts on the manifold, and the tensioner cant go untill the alternator is on because it blocks one of the bolts on that. i had to take the alternator/tensioner off 3 times I think? If you have money I would also reccomend to replace as much stuff as possible such as intake manifold gaskets, exhaust gaskets, clutch, etc.