Lets talk about Braking.

[blinkinbanana]

So I recently installed TT cams and I find myself at higher speeds coming into turns. One turn I like to take I found myself at nearly 30mph faster than before my cams. As I entered the turn I saw a man on the right, gave him space by hugging the center line as I started to brake. Meanwhile that space put me a little into the opposite lane with a car traveling towards me. I brake, probably a little heavy, and I notice my rear start to rotate. I let off the brakes and straighten back out. This isn't the first time I've felt this sort of braking/rotation happen and so far have controlled it but I don't want to lose control and in turn lose my R. So first things first, Slow Down.

My question is, are the front brakes that much better than the rear brakes? or is my nose diving? Is there a way to get my rear brakes to break a little heavier causing the ass to sag?

I was thinking about the ECS stage 1 or 2 rear brake kit but that is $$$, and the rear caliper is still the same size so do I really get greater braking force or does it just look better in an 18" wheel.

Koni FSD with stock springs
Neuspeed 22mm RSD
Adams slotted rotors
Mintex redbox pads
stock wheels
Toyo Proxy 225/40/18

[jerd]

So I recently installed TT cams and I find myself at higher speeds coming into turns. One turn I like to take I found myself at nearly 30mph faster than before my cams. As I entered the turn I saw a man on the right, gave him space by hugging the center line as I started to brake. Meanwhile that space put me a little into the opposite lane with a car traveling towards me. I brake, probably a little heavy, and I notice my rear start to rotate. I let off the brakes and straighten back out. This isn't the first time I've felt this sort of braking/rotation happen and so far have controlled it but I don't want to lose control and in turn lose my R. So first things first, Slow Down.

My question is, are the front brakes that much better than the rear brakes? or is my nose diving? Is there a way to get my rear brakes to break a little heavier causing the ass to sag?

I was thinking about the ECS stage 1 or 2 rear brake kit but that is $$$, and the rear caliper is still the same size so do I really get greater braking force or does it just look better in an 18" wheel.

Koni FSD with stock springs
Neuspeed 22mm RSD
Adams slotted rotors
Mintex redbox pads
stock wheels
Toyo Proxy 225/40/18

Upgrade ur haldex,,
Brake prior to entering turn
Or consider Racing Brake BBK if you want the ultimate in stopping power for a reasonable price.

[horribleR]

You definitely cannot brake during a corner and expect to not rotate. Do not brake during a corner and you'll be fine.

[Cspence]

Comp Haldex Controller....Makes a world of difference since it does not disengage the rear as soon as you touch the brakes

[blinkinbanana]

You definitely cannot brake during a corner and expect to not rotate. Do not brake during a corner and you'll be fine.

Sorry. This was early turn. I was braking pre turn then heavier into the turn because of what I saw ahead.

[ThatVdub]

Something kinda similar happened to me, but instead of a car there was a wall.
I hit the brake as hard as possible before entering the turn, to decrease my speed as much as
possible as fast as possible, but "just" as I was entering the turn I gunned hard.
Thought I was going to slide into the wall, since I felt I was still too fast for the turn, but it was like riding on rails, and I came out of it alive.

[jerd]

Trust the car, hold on and enjoy the ride

[speedbump2]

...Is there a way to get my rear brakes to break a little heavier causing the ass to sag?...

You do not want to increase your rear brake bias! If you think it's tail-happy under braking now, it will only get worse with more braking at the rear.

The problem is weight transfer. Guys like Ian and TechEd can explain it better than I can, but, in short, try not to brake too late in the corner. That sends the weight to the front, leaving the rear light and whippy.

--Chuck--

[Gti Fly]

Is there a way to get my rear brakes to break a little heavier causing the ass to sag?

No, rather than looking at altering the brakes, look at adjusting your driving style.

Shifting the weight forwards as you turn in (by braking) promotes a tail slide, and can tuck the front end in towards the apex, but you must learn to get on the power at the right time to straighten the car back up, aswell as using the steering too.


Doesn't matter what you've done to the brakes, if you arrive at the corner too fast, and heavy on the brakes, the car will always shift it's weight (and therefore centre of gravity) towards the front and the back end will always go light.

At the end of the day, managing the car's weight transfer is also part of the fun in getting a satisfying cornering line!

[Gti Fly]

Trust the car, hold on and enjoy the ride

Exactly!

[Yak Meat]

RB front setup
ECS stage 1r out back with EBC redbox pads... loses lots of weight all around and braking performance is amazing

As for the loose back end... did u take physics? a body in motion wants to stay in motion and stay in motion in the direction it is already traveling.

by braking in a corner you are changing both the direction and the momentum/velocity of that body, which inturn causes your back end to come about.

think about it this way, your front axle and rear axle are attached by a strong. try to turn and watch the back end. this is the same effect as you braking in a corner.

[GOT R32?]

OP remember the number one mod of all, its the Drivers Mod!! First you should learn proper braking/cornering techniqsBEFORE you spend money on a BBK. Also you should learn the art of Trail Breaking. That will teach you how to use weight transfer to your advantage, while reducing understeer. Once you have learned the ways of the brake you will know what you need, or what is a waste of time and money when it comes to modding your breaks.

[rajuncajun37]

stopped reading two comments in:

Don't brake in turns

But, we noticed the back on my car got weird a few times under hard braking. We stiffened up the suspension and the car became rock solid under heavy braking at high speeds. I'm running OEM rotors and pads, my car stops super hard. Stiffen up the suspension in your rear and watch ya brake problems DISAPPEAR.

[Slapbladder]

For a start take those NON OEM brake discs off the car!

Check all your suspension bushes/anti rollbar drop links/wheel bearings.

[horribleR]

Try figuring out a setup that puts more traction on the rear tires.

[MatadoR32]

Seems like everyone just dogpiled on the dude, might just be the way I read these comments. OP said that he braked mid-corner due to an oncoming car, not as a normal course of action.

But as already said, rear brake setup won't help you in that case, would rotate you even more. If anything, you were using the wrong pedal in this particular case.
Point the car where you want it, goose the loud pedal, and it'll get straightened out.

[blinkinbanana]

Seems like everyone just dogpiled on the dude, might just be the way I read these comments. OP said that he braked mid-corner due to an oncoming car, not as a normal course of action.

Thanks for sticking up for me. Not how I take every turn. But something didn't feel right.

Check all your suspension bushes/anti rollbar drop links/wheel bearings.

Check. Replacing parts this coming weekend, on the list of things to do but never have time to do.

But, we noticed the back on my car got weird a few times under hard braking. We stiffened up the suspension and the car became rock solid under heavy braking at high speeds. I'm running OEM rotors and pads, my car stops super hard. Stiffen up the suspension in your rear and watch ya brake problems DISAPPEAR.

That was my next question, would a stiffer spring rate helped this situation? Or a larger front sway?

RB front setup
ECS stage 1r out back with EBC redbox pads...

I tried EBC green stuff before and thought they lacked cold bite and were spongy. How do the EBC redbox compare to; Hawks HPS, mintex Redbox and EBC green stuff? I was going to try Hawk HPS next.

[Yak Meat]

I ran the mintex red box pads on my old car and there was absolutely no difference between them and the oem pads as far as feel, grab, and stopping power. So i would stay away from those, they are a horizontal move, not an improvement of a downgrade.

As for hawk HPS, heard only good things but do not have anything to compare them to as i have not run them.

I run the red stuff pads in the rear from ECB and i am happy with them. Both them and the RB kit survived the track day with no issues so...

PS, sways are not the right course of action. sway bars are used to cover up deficiencies in the suspension and the driver ability. They also reduce your contact patch coming around a corner which can be bad. I would dial out as much understeer as possible. So get stiffer springs, get some camber plates, control arms, and the front control arm bushings from MCPii. With all that you should be pretty neutral. Throw a unibrace in there as well and you wont need sways.

[rajuncajun37]

I'm not smashing on you, bro.

I know why ya car did this, you braked fairly hard in a curve at a high rate of speed. My car acted funny while traveling in a straight line before entering a curve. I think you will see better braking when you upgrade your suspension. Drive a little safer on city streets as well. If you can't see around the full curve you may wanna take it easy.

Ya brakes and sway bar are nice. Your suspension needs to geaux. And drive a little safer, stay off them brakes if possible. The car will handle amazing at high speeds in the curves if you simply drive her and let the tires and suspension do the work. 4Motion is awesome. If you get understeer lift off the throttle a little. NOT FULL THROTTLE RELEASE, when you lift fully off throttle the AWD disengages which could cause the rear to rotate. IF YOU LIFT AND THE REAR ROTATES you better stab the gas and drive through it. If you reduce speed but keep the throttle going the AWD will help to reduce speed at all four wheels and keep you planted to the pavement.

Get Better suspension and understand how the 4Motion works, be safe and slow down a little. Steering and fuel inputs around turns, use the AWD to reduce speed....not them brakes.



See the Curve, BE the Curve !!

[jerd]

^^^^^ Nasty looking pic:thumb up:

WOT at the apex and hold on for dear life!!!!
again a bluebox would give you that added torque push out of the twists!!!!

[rajuncajun37]

lol, ya....hang on.

If you get the car cockeyed or loose it will not end well. But, with the right setup you can make changes during the scary moments. Steering input and throttle inputs will save you. Can't hold your line due to understeer.....try a little less fuel and open up your angle, use more of your lane. Coming in hot.....brake hard and down shift BEFORE the curve, try to get ya foot on the pedal as you enter, drive through the hard spot and use all that torque to throttle out of the difficult corner.

Just practice but be safe and always remain CALM. Read more about the suspension and AWD of our cars.

[swartzentruber]

There is a decent amount of bad advice in this thread, along with some good advice from speedbump and GTIFly, and the post immediately previous from rajuncajun. Just curious, is this on the street or track? If on the street, maybe think about slowing down a bit?
1) The cause of this is almost certainly braking technique. I did this all the time in heavy braking corners when I first started track driving, and even today still do it a little under REALLY heavy (threshold) braking. Under hard braking, you shift so much weight to the front, it's easy for the rear to get squirrelly. In general, this is caused by braking too abrubtly, which unsettles the car. Many instructors will advocate actually repeating to yourself "hard, harder, hardest" to help remember not going immediately from 0 to 100% braking, but rather 0, 50, 75, 100% (but still quickly), which gives the suspension more time to reset.
2) Yes, there is a technique called trail braking, but no, you should never be deliberately using it on the street. It should be reserved for the track, it is considered a technique for advanced drivers, and only slower speed corners. Use it on faster corners (or faster turns on the street), and it's easy to spin.
3) There is no need to think about upgrading braking components. The OEM parts are perfectly fine for anything but heavy track use. If anything, I'd consider a different street pad for cost reasons, but not necessarily performance.
4) I do not think this is related to your suspension, though it's possible some type of suspension issue could be causing this. However, if this was a onetime thing, I doubt it. Stiffening the springs might let you get away with bad braking technique, but could cause other problems.

[rajuncajun37]

good advice

this ain't a great setup: Koni FSD with stock springs

And, still gotta be safe out there. Should have never been in that position to begin with. Plus, I'm speaking from experience. We had the PSS9's on #6 soft and the car did not brake as needed for the DRAGON runs. Felt unsettled. We set the rear on #4 stiff and the car reacted perfectly. On full stiff #1 the rear end get's a little loose and oversteer is the result. Some people like the oversteer, I do not. My perfect setup is front #1 full stiff and rear #4 stiff. Alignment is -1 camber up front and -1.7 in the rear.

Everyone posting here should try taking a 40 mph curve at 80 mph and go ahead and TOUCH them brakes. Let me know how that works for ya.

[mapleleaf979]

RB front setup
ECS stage 1r out back with EBC redbox pads... loses lots of weight all around and braking performance is amazing

As for the loose back end... did u take physics? a body in motion wants to stay in motion and stay in motion in the direction it is already traveling.

by braking in a corner you are changing both the direction and the momentum/velocity of that body, which inturn causes your back end to come about.

think about it this way, your front axle and rear axle are attached by a strong. try to turn and watch the back end. this is the same effect as you braking in a corner.

Did u notice a difference with the ECS stage 1r? I think if only for visual this mod is a good one. That small 256mm rear disc looks terrible. Looks like it belongs on a civic.

[nothing-leaves-stock]

get rid of the front calipers- they are worthless on the track. stock rotors are "ok" if your not serious but the oem calipers get too hot and boil quick on track. the front oem rotors are "floating ones, upgrades should eb to a true 2 piece rotor NOT a solid crossed drilled thes not floating as oem is. the rear brakes won't help much if fronts are stock. brake before turns. better suspenion setup. comp haldex controller.

[blinkinbanana]

I ran the mintex red box pads on my old car and there was absolutely no difference between them and the oem pads as far as feel, grab, and stopping power. So i would stay away from those, they are a horizontal move, not an improvement of a downgrade.

As for hawk HPS, heard only good things but do not have anything to compare them to as i have not run them.

I run the red stuff pads in the rear from ECB and i am happy with them. Both them and the RB kit survived the track day with no issues.

I know mintex are very similar to stock but they are they only thing I know. The one time I tried a different pad I hated them, and since I had very little money was stuck with them until it was time for a change. I'll look into them a little more thanks for the recommendation.

[blinkinbanana]

this ain't a great setup: Koni FSD with stock springs

Everyone posting here should try taking a 40 mph curve at 80 mph and go ahead and TOUCH them brakes. Let me know how that works for ya.

Unfortunately this is basically what I did. I'm not proud of that fact and I'm not trying to come off as bragging. In my first post I stated that I know I need to slow down.

I think I was in fourth. Down shifted and broke to 3rd. I felt I was at an "ok" speed for the right hand turn ahead until conditions changed. I do not believe I jammed on the brakes but rather slowly applied. Drivers rear might have been on the yellow line and I felt the car start to rotate. Off brakes, coast maybe or slight gas into left hand turn. Which makes me think that I probably went 5>4 first turn then 4>3 for the next.

I wouldn't say I panicked but I did get a little nervous.

The other thing I've noticed recently is my car seems to squat while breaking for a turn, I turn then the car seems to rebound or float towards the outside of the turn. My first test drive after can install the car felt squirrelly.

I should also say, I'm not asking so that I can go out and try this again. Nor do I plan on being in this situation again.

[gnatman]

keep racing speeds for the track not public roads
if your ass is rotating out then slow it down. If you dont track the car then you dont need a BBK. hell I tack my f'ing car and could stop faster than a BBK could with **** pads.

[Yak Meat]

I can’t say I noticed a good amount difference going to the EBC Red Stuff and the ECS stage 1r because
I also did the RacingBrake front kit at the same time, so discerning which improvement came from where was not really possible. I have a whole review of everything in my build thread.

However, both the RB kit and ECS stage 1R save a significant amount of weight which I noticed instantly!

As for the driving techniques: Driver mod and Track days. I have 1 under the belt this year and 2 more already planned plus I have Lemons this weekend and another race at the end of Oct. Experiences are all posted in the build thread I mentioned earlier. Either way, you will learn a **** load doing even one track day.

Stock brakes are not good for the track though. They are heavy, they really aren’t as good as people make them out to be, and because the car is so heavy, especially up front, you will boil your brake fluid coming off high speed areas and probably glaze your pads if using OEM ones. The R32 really has a lot of power coming out of turns and on turn tracks, the straights stock will make you want more power though.

Regardless, as was mentioned earlier, trail braking is for experts do not try it on the street. Also, the best advice I’ve seen in here and a huge mistake I used to make was the whole throttle and brake modulation piece. It’s a progressive addition and subtraction of force through both pedals. It makes the car settled more often than not and once you start doing it, it makes a world of difference. That also goes for steering inputs. The instantaneous input of steering is unsettling to the car and can have negative effects. It’s best to have progressive inputs and be smooth with all input into the car, steering, braking, and throttle. Smooth is fast, and you know you’re doing it right when it doesn’t feel fast. Also, the addition and subtraction of power is a good way to control your line. If you’re under steering, letting off some (not all) will tighten your line, if you want a wider line, add power in a turn, but don’t ever touch the brakes. It’s a death sentence on most tracks.

The R32 really is a lot of car to handle at first and the funky awd makes learning a little more difficult than a strictly AWD/FWD/RWD car. And once you mod it, depending on what you do, you will learn more or less, feel more or less, and cover up problems/mistakes you were making beforehand.

[gnatman]

slow in fast out.

5years of experience, I cant even tell you how many hours on the track I have.
I run 2 days a month 8 months out of the year for 5 years plus riding with people. also ASA certified

ASA is the 2nd biggest sanction 1st is nascar

[Yak Meat]

This is only my 2nd year doing them. but ill get 3 in. Unfortunately, nothing is super close and not a ton of days are offered...

NHMS, Lime Rock, NJMP T and L, and Glen are closeish... but unless i pay like 400000 dollars in license fees and memberships im relegated to only a few a summer.

[mapleleaf979]

YAk meat did i see your ecs stage 1r in another thread? If so cant u post a link, if not can i see a pic of the Rear disc setup? If its a pain, dont sweat it.

Looking at the RB testing it was pretty impressive. Do u think RB kit outperforms the Porsche 6 piston?

[gnatman]

This is only my 2nd year doing them. but ill get 3 in. Unfortunately, nothing is super close and not a ton of days are offered...

NHMS, Lime Rock, NJMP T and L, and Glen are closeish... but unless i pay like 400000 dollars in license fees and memberships im relegated to only a few a summer.

guess I'm just lucky to have three tracks side by side that we utilize. though in arizona all are flat and well it never rains so they are almost always dry lol

[oldracer]

Bestimprovement to car not even mentioned - A DRIVING COURSE

That would be the best bang for the buck

It never ceases to amaze how people will spend 2 grand+ on suspension and parts and not on a quality driver training school.....



You can change parts but you still don't know how to drive in a manner to get the most out of your car.....

A good driving course will teach you how to drive, why your car does wat it does, and how to best utilize the amazing potential your OEM R possesses.

I have been thru several courses over the years for both cars & Superbikes, every time I learn something new and reinforce my belief that smooth is fast....

It was hard to adjust to AWD after 50 years of RWD racing, everything has to done differently and while AWD is fast, it has quirks that must be learned and coped with

When in doubt - throttle out - is good but hard to wrap your reactions around initially; it takes discipline and practice.

I have not done track time with my R32, and when I do, I don't expect to be fast until I have some meaningful seat time.
Put me in a 911 and 25 years of seat time will make a difference though.... it's what you are comfortable with and know - that takes training first and the improvements are amazing with no car changes...

DO IT!!!! It is the best $$$$ you will ever spend

[TechEd]

The habit you appear to have, and what you are doing without (apparently) knowing about it, is initiating enough yaw acceleration by introducing steering during the last part of braking, and this is a common HP driving technique called traibraking. Problem is, if you are able to induce enough yaw acceleration (or rotation) while driving on public roads, ...you're going too fast for your own safety and that of others ...or your rear tires are worn out or have the wrong air pressure.

If we focus on this within the context of track use during an HPDE, we should not focus on braking by itself because braking and then trailing off of the brakes while initiating steering inputs are but two of the five critical parts of the entire cornering event ...and the proper way to approach this (as correctly suggested by many above) is to understand the dynamics of tire load transfer and your role as the driver to initiate and control this. Indeed, many novices suffer from over-braking and subsequently over-slowing the car prior to the subsequent stages of the corner, and this throws off the timing for the subsequent stages of the corner. Trail braking is a good thing, but it is often hard to do right, and many overuse it.

For a detailed look at the entire dynamic, refer to my primer on tire load transfer and especially focus on adjusting your technique as necessary to prevent frying the outside tire shoulders on a VWAG Haldex chassis ....i.e.: NO on-off WOT with lots of steering lock still dialed-in.

In terms of the stock components, the brake balance on MKIV R32 is nearly perfect as-is. If HPDEs are considered in future, brake fade resistance is the only thing that needs consideration, via upgraded pads and brake fluid ...a BBK is a complete waste of money when a skilled driver is behind the wheel.