16v CIS basic swap - no idle / dies when warm

[ArsenicPants]

I'm finishing up a 16v swap into my 81 jetta
I decided to keep it CIS basic (not lambda, no Oxygen sensor) but wire in the knock box with the throttle body switches intact
the original engine did not use throttle body switches, it had an elaborate system of vacuum lines and reservoirs

I believe I have 2 separate issues, and i'll try my best to describe them

issue 1) it starts fine when cold, but won't idle and dies if you don't give it constant throttle
issue 2) if you can keep it alive long enough for it to get warm, it cuts out and won't restart until it's cooled down again
the engine WILL idle if i unplug the break booster vacuum line, although it idles very high, making me think the idling issue has to so with a lack of air flow

the 8v that was in it before had ZERO issues, it was just lame

I'm using a standard CIS throttle body, not the scirocco or CIS-E style. it has an idle screw and the rubber washer is new
all of the vacuum reservoirs and lines have been removed, any open ports have been plugged, including any from the throttle body (and yes, i've double and triple checked)
I'm using the original fuel distributor, with a larger metering plate housing

the head has a thermo time switch in it to control cold starting, it has the cold start valve, it DOES NOT have the aux air valve installed. it also, obviously since it's CIS basic, DOES NOT have an idle stabilization valve
it also has a coolant temp sensor in the head next to the Thermoswitch, but it's not plugged into anything. I assumed since the original CIS didn't use one I wouldn't need to use it here either?

with CIS basic, if the advance has been changed to be controlled by the knock box, not vacuum, are any other vacuum lines necessary? or the vacuum reservoir (group of tennis balls/bubble looking thing)?

the engine had no hot start issues before, i've been reading about the accumulator valve in the fuel pump but if it was fine before i can't see why that would be the issue?

I hope someone can help me out with this
cheers

[DjBij099]

I can relate. I too have CIS-Basic on my 16V. I can help with issue #1.

CIS-Basic doesn't have ISV, but on Mk1s, they used an auxiliary air regulator that pretty much did the same thing an ISV did.

When you start the car cold, you should hold it at 2K rpms for about a min or so. Afterwards, the engine will idle just fine. I have an aftermarket water temp hooked up to mine and I take my foot off the gas when it gets to 100*F and the car idles fine afterwards

I had a thought and idea which I will get around to doing eventually. The auxiliary air regulators plug is only consisted of 2 wires. One is for ground and the other is for a switched 12V. It too has no ports just like a stock 16Vs ISV does except where the 16V ports are aimed left and down for the vacuum hookups, the auxiliary air regulators is aimed left and right. If and when I get around to doing mine, I would make a custom bracket to have it mounted in between the 2 intake manifold runners and positioned just where it sits a little bit over the fuel lines. Pretty much I would make a bracket mounted to one of the studs where the upper and lower intake manifold meet. Then, I would route the vacuum lines, one coming of the intake pipe and the other one to the cold start valve connecting pipe.

I hope you can understand and this gives some insight as well.

Sorry I can't help on issue #2

[WaterWheels]

the engine WILL idle if i unplug the break booster vacuum line, although it idles very high, making me think the idling issue has to so with a lack of air flow

Agree with air flow being you major issue right now. The engine speed increases when you un-plug the line because it starts getting enough air then too much and dies (air sensor plate does not lift to add fuel due to the air by-passing it).

I'm using a standard CIS throttle body, not the scirocco or CIS-E style. it has an idle screw and the rubber washer is new

Does this mean the smaller throttle body? If so it will hamper your engine a little but can be changed over later for the larger one. How did you install the switches? I don’t remember there being any threaded or non-threaded holes to mount switches on throttle bodies that did not come with any?

. . . it DOES NOT have the aux air valve installed. it also, obviously since it's CIS basic, DOES NOT have an idle stabilization valve

Here lies the biggest problem I believe. Without having an ISV, the idle has to be set different from engines with one. Even with an AAV, which might help some with cold starting and warm-up, the idle has to be set with the throttle valve. You are going to have to forget about that “set at the factory and should not require adjusting” statement and set it like a carburetor engine. You really need to do a complete fuel pressure test also to be sure the control pressure regulator is working OK

Just so you know, in Europe the KR code 16v which ran off basic CIS had an idle stabilizer. It is a stand alone kind of system which you can add to your engine if you can get the parts. I tried going the AAV route once on a CIS 16v and it just never worked right. Never understood just why, but it just didn't want to warm up smooth so I went back to the ISV system.
it also has a coolant temp sensor in the head next to the Thermoswitch, but it's not plugged into anything. I assumed since the original CIS didn't use one I wouldn't need to use it here either?

. . . with CIS basic, if the advance has been changed to be controlled by the knock box, not vacuum, are any other vacuum lines necessary?

You need a line for the knock sensor control unit to sense load. Any other lines would depend on the setup of the car, i.e. air conditioning or charcoal canister etc.

[ArsenicPants]

I had a thought and idea which I will get around to doing eventually. The auxiliary air regulators plug is only consisted of 2 wires. One is for ground and the other is for a switched 12V. It too has no ports just like a stock 16Vs ISV does except where the 16V ports are aimed left and down for the vacuum hookups, the auxiliary air regulators is aimed left and right. If and when I get around to doing mine, I would make a custom bracket to have it mounted in between the 2 intake manifold runners and positioned just where it sits a little bit over the fuel lines. Pretty much I would make a bracket mounted to one of the studs where the upper and lower intake manifold meet. Then, I would route the vacuum lines, one coming of the intake pipe and the other one to the cold start valve connecting pipe.

I hope you can understand and this gives some insight as well.

so, the ISV and the AAV will both operate using the same plug?
I gotta admit, I mostly took the ISV off the 16v just because it looked so fugly. I was trying to piece together some bits to have the AAV pass under the intake runners to hide it, kind of like you mentioned, but if the ISV works better and it will work on the same plug I might as well use it instead

Agree with air flow being you major issue right now. The engine speed increases when you un-plug the line because it starts getting enough air then too much and dies (air sensor plate does not lift to add fuel due to the air by-passing it).

looking at the throttle body, i realized last night that the screw that holds the resting place of the primary throttle is missing, so when it closes it closes completely. this is most likely the reason it doesn't idle, hahaha. I'll fix that tonight and update

Does this mean the smaller throttle body? If so it will hamper your engine a little but can be changed over later for the larger one. How did you install the switches? I don’t remember there being any threaded or non-threaded holes to mount switches on throttle bodies that did not come with any?

no, not the super old throttle bodies, this one came from an Audi 5000. it has the WOT switch on the top, and the closed throttle switch underneath of the throttle body. but they are a different style compared to the original 16v switches

Here lies the biggest problem I believe. Without having an ISV, the idle has to be set different from engines with one. Even with an AAV, which might help some with cold starting and warm-up, the idle has to be set with the throttle valve. You are going to have to forget about that “set at the factory and should not require adjusting” statement and set it like a carburetor engine. You really need to do a complete fuel pressure test also to be sure the control pressure regulator is working OK

I'll be sure to do a complete pressure test soon, as soon as I can find the proper tools. I think a friend of mine has them. I originally intended to use a beefier fuel dist. from a 2.5l Volvo (that's where the larger air plate came from) but I thought for now I'd just use the one that I know works

Just so you know, in Europe the KR code 16v which ran off basic CIS had an idle stabilizer. It is a stand alone kind of system which you can add to your engine if you can get the parts. I tried going the AAV route once on a CIS 16v and it just never worked right. Never understood just why, but it just didn't want to warm up smooth so I went back to the ISV system.

I didn't know the euro CIS came with the ISV, that's interesting. like I mentioned above, i'll try installing it and hiding it under the intake runners

You need a line for the knock sensor control unit to sense load. Any other lines would depend on the setup of the car, i.e. air conditioning or charcoal canister etc.

that's exactly what i figured. ya, I have that vacuum line teeing off from the brake booster line. I ditched all the charcoal canisters too

thanks a lot for the help guys
i'll make the changes and get back to you

[DjBij099]

so, the ISV and the AAV will both operate using the same plug?
I gotta admit, I mostly took the ISV off the 16v just because it looked so fugly. I was trying to piece together some bits to have the AAV pass under the intake runners to hide it, kind of like you mentioned, but if the ISV works better and it will work on the same plug I might as well use it instead

I don't want to hide it under the intake runners. I want to make a bracket that starts at the stud in the middle of the two intake runners. I'll be placing it just above the 3rd fuel injector. The red area will be the final place for the AAV and the green is the stud which I will make a bracket and then bend it accordingly to get it to rest where I want it. This is my actual motor

[IMG][/IMG]

I don't think the same plug will work. Here's a pic of the AAV plug:



I can't find a pic of a ISV plug, but if you have it, you should see the difference. I think ISV have 3 wires where this is only 2.

[WaterWheels]

No the connectors are not the same and to be honest just how do you plan to make it work anyway? The ISV is operated by the CIS-e (in this case) fuel ECU which you do not have using basic CIS. If you want to add an ISV then you have to find the KR parts, look for aftermarket systems or switch over to a different injection system like CIS-e (that would be my choice).

I can understand wanting to “clean up” the engine bay, but there are other things which can be moved or deleted to do that rather then remove the ISV. I can understand wanting to use basic CIS if you are on a budget and just driving the car until you can get the complete CIS-e (or other system) system and the car came with basic CIS. I ran basic CIS on 16v engines because the correct parts were used here and easy to find/buy. But to basically degrade your injection system to more or less a higher tech carburetor just seems useless.

I too tried placing an AAV in the location shown in the picture. Once it was mounted I found it interfered with the closing of the hood. Maybe it will not on your car but I ended up mounting it where the ISV was (so much for cleaning up things). Also keep in mind that although it would have a constant 12v supply for the heating element, placing it in a path of cooler incoming air could affect its operation a little. But the real issue with using an AAV if you can make it work is that it does not stabilize or “set” your idle. It is only for supplying the extra needed air during starts and warm up, once the engine is warm the AAV is closed. So the idle still has to be set using the primary throttle and the engine speed will wander with battery power draw, A/C use or power steering load.

I originally intended to use a beefier fuel dist. from a 2.5l Volvo (that's where the larger air plate came from) but I thought for now I'd just use the one that I know works

This also could be a problem. The air flow sensor, the cone it floats in really, is made based on the engines air needs. I doubt the 2.5L Volvo engine has the same needs as the 1.8L 16v engine throughout the RPM range. Even if it is not real bad and would work OK, have you set the plunger height and the air sensor plate rest position? I suggest getting the correct air sensor for your engine, either CIS or CIS-e.

The Audi throttle body is not larger or better than the newer VW ones. I don’t know if the switches are wired for what you need either, have you checked that? Not all throttle switches are made to work the same so be sure it does what you need it to do.

I'm not trying to or want to sound like I’m being negative about what you are doing, but I feel attempting to re-invent the wheel does nothing but give you a different wheel, but it’s still a wheel. The basic CIS 16v has been done, by VW, and with the correct parts it works very well. If you can’t get all the parts then you’re just half stepping, it will run but not exactly right. You have to make compromises which effect the daily operation of the car. For racing it would be no problem but for a street driven car, even worse if you live where it gets cold, why make a car that is not always fun to drive? Basic CIS did not make the KR engine produce more power than the PL 16v did. The PL 16v was what was offered in the US and the parts are cheap and easy to find, why not just go that route and build on it?

[ArsenicPants]

Ya, I didn't realise the ISV was controlled by a computer, I thought it just operated on resistance like the AAV

I installed the AAV yesterday underneath the intake runners, for now, using the hose I could find in my garage. A hose goes from the intake pipe to the stock 8v 'J' pipe down under the intake runners, to another straight hose, to the AAV, then a curved hose up to the cold start valve housing. It will do for now until I can find a way of mounting it on the backside above the exhaust
I also replaced the resting screw on the throttle body, it had snapped in half
I wasn't able to start it up though, I mean I didn't try. It was late at night and I live in a housing complex with an angry strata council.
I won't have a chance until friday now, actually

I'm keeping the CIS basic because I like the simplicity and archaic nature of it. CIS-E is something that was invented to get past emissions, and is a lot more restrictive IMO
I have full wiring for Motronic available, but like I said, I prefer the almost completely mechanical nature of early CIS
I've got another mk1 jetta with full modern wiring and fuel management, that's good enough for me
actually, if money was no object and I had all the time in the world to learn how to tune it properly, I would love to install some kind of purely mechanical race injection

the air metering bowl from the volvo unit is huge. it's a full 80mm thin walled bowl, similar to the euro bowl or maybe even to the VWMS bowl. as a Canadian, we got the larger bowls up here in gerneral, similar to the european specs. the american ones are all pitifully small.

I'll check on the throttle body switches. i'm sure it will be pretty apparent if they're correct once I have it running properly and at full throttle

also, the PL isn't that easy to find anymore
the 9A is, you can walk into any parts yard in Canada and probably find at least one 16v passat, but the scirocco motors are more or less all snatched up. I was lucky enough to find a 1.8 block and head from a friend of mine that had it stashed away in his father's garage for years. just the bare block and head though, nothing else. and it was water logged

actually, once I get the thing running properly, the next step is working in a set of GSXR ITBs running on the same CIS
just because
I'm looking for a suitable intake plenum I can adapt, preferably made from a modern plastic intake so it's nice and light, and one that I can run from the passenger side

[WaterWheels]

I installed the AAV yesterday underneath the intake runners, for now, using the hose I could find in my garage. . . I also replaced the resting screw on the throttle body, it had snapped in half :

The AAV as stated above will only help for cold starting and during warm-up. There was never an AAV made for the 16v so it might not work great and you might want to adjust it later to work better. Too close to the exhaust may not be a wonderful idea as too much heat could cause it to go bad fast. That screw you replaced is going to be how you set your idle. I would set it a little higher than what you really want due to weather causing you to switch on more electrical items (wipers, rear window de-fogger, headlights, heater fan, etc.).

I'm keeping the CIS basic because I like the simplicity and archaic nature of it. CIS-E is something that was invented to get past emissions, and is a lot more restrictive IMO:

We all have opinions, which is fine, but I have to say yours just does not seem to be based on anything accurate. CIS-e was not designed to pass any emissions requirements, it was designed long before they were enforced in the US and just installed on US models BECAUSE of emission regulations. CIS-e was a natural advancement step in the CIS system history, to refine it or have better control over the mixture. CIS-e does a much better job of controlling the mixture than basic CIS does and the tiny bit of electronics which does the work should not scare anyone. Restrictive is something I guess you would have to explain as I can’t think of any way it would be restrictive or more restrictive.

the air metering bowl from the volvo unit is huge. it's a full 80mm thin walled bowl, similar to the euro bowl or maybe even to the VWMS bowl. as a Canadian, we got the larger bowls up here in gerneral, similar to the european specs. the american ones are all pitifully small.

Huge means nothing. The part that matters is the shape of the cone which is determined by the engines needs through testing. If the 16v requires a certain cone angle say at mid-range engine speeds but the Volvo required a different cone angle, the air flow will not be correct and the mixture also. All air flow cones are shaped different for the engine they are used with, you might not be able to see it with the naked eye, but they are. As for the size used in the US, that was only for a few years that the 60mm was used and then the size was returned to 80mm

. . . but like I said, I prefer the almost completely mechanical nature of early CIS . . . actually, once I get the thing running properly, the next step is working in a set of GSXR ITBs running on the same CIS

Believe me when I say I’m not faulting you for what you want or plan to do. I just feel you are barking up the wrong tree unless you plan to make it a race only vehicle. The ITB CIS setup is not going to be all that easy. I believe I saw one or two times where people did something like that and it seemed complicated and custom. If basic is you desire then why not just run a pair of side draught carburetors? Easy and cheap to come by as are the manifolds and all the small parts required to put it all together.

But your plans were not the topic of this thread, so unless you have other issues related to the problem or another problem I'll just skip any more suggestions or comments on your plans or ideas.

[dogzila22]

We all have opinions, which is fine, but I have to say yours just does not seem to be based on anything accurate. CIS-e was not designed to pass any emissions requirements, it was designed long before they were enforced in the US and just installed on US models BECAUSE of emission regulations. CIS-e was a natural advancement step in the CIS system history, to refine it or have better control over the mixture. CIS-e does a much better job of controlling the mixture than basic CIS does and the tiny bit of electronics which does the work should not scare anyone. Restrictive is something I guess you would have to explain as I can’t think of any way it would be restrictive or more restrictive.

So you are saying CIS-E is better than CIS basic, so why better car Porsche than VW used CIS basic & CIS-L?

[WaterWheels]

So you are saying CIS-E is better than CIS basic, so why better car Porsche than VW used CIS basic & CIS-L?

So you're putting words in my mouth I did not say Better is relative, better then what? I stated CIS-e does a better job of controling the air/fuel mixture and that is true. That goes for stating one car is better then the other also.

Just so you know:
Porsche also used over the years L-Jetronic, LH-Jetronic, Motronic, LH-Motronic and a real crappy D-Jetronic.
And cars like Audi, Ferrari and Mercedes have used CIS-e over the years. You just can't judge a car by it's injection system just like you can't judge a book by it's cover

[ArsenicPants]

well, anyway, back to the task at hand
the AAV I installed doesn't seem to have done any good
the car still stalls out if I try to let it idle
I went back to the original throttle body, the Passat 16v one, and also put the original 8v air metering plate back on
I also checked for any foreign stuff in the intake manifold
none of that seemed to make a difference
at that point I pulled all the plugs and did another compression test
it read 180 all the way across the board (hooray!) but the plugs themselves were super black and coated in dry soot
meaning it's running pig rich
which makes sense if there's not enough air reaching the cylinders
so I took both the intake boots off of the intake hose and checked them for cracks. I covered up the open end and blew into the other end with it completely covering my mouth
they were both fine, no air could escape

at that point I put everything back together, making sure both boots were completely sealed everywhere, and tried firing it up
it started instantly and Idled at a normal rate
I was ecstatic, so I went to the engine and started trying to fine tune it
then I realized the port on the back of the throttle body was uncapped, and as soon as I put my finger over it it died

i'm pretty much stumped
the air metering plate lifts fine too, it doesn't seem to be stuck
the plunger on the metering head isn't difficult to compress

I might just put everything back together now from the swap (the axles, clean up the wiring, the front suspension back together and the wheels back on) and get it out of the garage so it's at least out of the way
but sucking in all that unmetered air can't be good

[ps2375]

but sucking in all that unmetered air can't be good

That would just lean it out some, sounds like it needed it, as it seems to be rich. We did this swap several years ago, running it on CIS basic with a normal CIS TB. The motor was tough to idle when cold, but after it warmed up, was quite happy to idle. We had no AAV or ISV. We set the AFR with a wideband and the CIS ran that AFR from idle to redline with no problems. I suggest you make sure that the idle and WOT switches are adjusted and functioning properly and set the mixture for around 13:1 for best power. Too rich or too lean could cause it to have problems idling. Get the mixture set for idle and see if that helps with it.

[ArsenicPants]

thanks!
I had a look at the throttle switches and rechecked the wiring. I actually had the idle switch wired as the 12v, the 12v to the WOT, and the WOT to the idle. so everything was backwards
you would think that fixing that would have made a difference, but apparently it didn't, because when I started it up again it did the same thing
then I noticed I was leaking fuel from the section of piping where I cut it back and moved it so it went up the passenger side, so I fixed that as well, and still the same thing
then I unplugged the throttle vacuum port so it would sort of idle, and took each plug wire out while it was running

1/2 made the idle drop, 3/4 did nothing, so I could be on to something
I pulled the plugs themselves and had a look. 1/2 were caked in black soot again, and 3/4 were as clean as when I put them back in before
remember, all 4 were caked in crud before

so that means there's fuel and spark getting to 1 & 2 (although TOO MUCH fuel) , but no fuel getting to 3 & 4?
or does that mean 3/4 have neither fuel or spark? or just spark?
if there was no spark in 3/4, wouldn't the plugs be caked in black soot from the unburned fuel? or does it need the spark to oxidize like that?

I did a fuel injector test twice already. all 4 of them are working properly
I'll try doing another test, but I'm still confused

I'll try borrowing a set of wires and see if they make a difference
any other suggestions?

also, I think the reason the engine is dying when i gets 'warm' is because of the amount of fuel flooding the cylinders and soot collecting on the plugs. my oil is super thin now as well

[WaterWheels]

I had a look at the throttle switches and rechecked the wiring. I actually had the idle switch wired as the 12v, the 12v to the WOT, and the WOT to the idle. so everything was backwards

Yeah, that would be a problem but not for fuel as it is only being used for the knock control ignition control box. Seeing as you have discovered a little issue, below, the problem with the incorrect wiring is of little or no real significance right now. Good it has been corrected but the more important problem is the cylinders not firing.

. . . then I unplugged the throttle vacuum port so it would sort of idle . . . and took each plug wire out while it was running . . . 1/2 made the idle drop, 3/4 did nothing, so I could be on to something. . . 1/2 were caked in black soot again, and 3/4 were as clean as when I put them back in . . . if there was no spark in 3/4, wouldn't the plugs be caked in black soot from the unburned fuel? also, I think the reason the engine is dying when i gets 'warm' is because of the amount of fuel flooding the cylinders and soot collecting on the plugs. my oil is super thin now as well

No, the ones which had no effect when the wire was removed would not be black with soot. If there is no spark to ignite the mixture then it is just raw fuel washing everything in the cylinder clean. They might show as being a little wet and smell like fuel, but with no ignition there is no soot. When it gets warm, the engine, warm-up enrichment is stopped and the mixture is leaned out to what would be a normal running mixture. If only two cylinders are firing then it would not be enough to maintain a running engine and it will die. I will not give a sermon about checking the basics before asking for help, but you need to fix the ignition system before anything else. EXCEPT for the oil which is now an oil/gasoline mixture and the cylinder walls have been washed dry of oil. Change the oil.

[ArsenicPants]

I will not give a sermon about checking the basics before asking for help, but you need to fix the ignition system before anything else. EXCEPT for the oil which is now an oil/gasoline mixture and the cylinder walls have been washed dry of oil. Change the oil.

thanks for the help, I appreciate it, but that's just the thing
I've previously checked everything in the ignition system already, it just seems ridiculous that this is the first time 3/4 aren't firing due to ignition. I realize thats's what's going on, I'm just kinda pissed about it I guess.
A friend of mine has a brand new set of wires for sale cheap, i'll grab those from him. and yeah, oil change for sure

cheers

[WaterWheels]

. . I've previously checked everything in the ignition system already, it just seems ridiculous that this is the first time 3/4 aren't firing due to ignition. A friend of mine has a brand new set of wires for sale cheap, i'll grab those from him.

If everything was checked and it checked out fine before, then you might want to do some deeper testing before buying those wires. Of course if you just want them anyway that's fine, but it could be something else. Try switching the wires if they can reach far enough to at least do two. If you switch a good wire with a bad wire (if they really are bad) then the cylinder which fired before should now be dead and vise-versa. Have you looked close at the distributor cap? Also, fuel fouled plugs might not fire. Pull the plug wires from the top of the cap and check the terminals too. If it is firing on 2 of 4 cylinders then it is going to be a problem between the distributor and the plugs. But I'm sure you know that the ignition has to be working correctly before going into any other problems.

[ArsenicPants]

alright, so I got a brand-new set of wires cheap from a friend
the cap & rotor are both new, there's no oil in the distributor, but i'm not sure about the hall sender itself
when I put the new wires on i realized I didn't have the proper coil with the snap-on connector, I had the old style sleeve connector style. so i went out and picked up a used but very new looking coil from the wrecker, as well as a few from the same friend with the wires that he said definitely worked
neither the coils nor the wires made any difference, and the plugs were still only firing on #1 and 2
I went back to the same friend and borrowed a new distributor he had, with all new parts etc. I threw it on, and it still wasn't firing on 3 & 4

so i thought about it, and I realized that the distributor was probably on backwards, so it was firing when 3 & 4 were open, not closed. i put it to TDC, took the dist off, rotated it once, and put the dist back on. NOW it's finally firing on all cylinders. still too rich, but all firing.

but it still doesn't idle, it just runs a lot better
so I figure I just have to adjust the throttle body and fuel mixture until it does idle

thanks for your help

[WaterWheels]

OK, so you’re either not making any sense or you were not completely up front about the cylinders firing. I don’t mean this to be picking on you or harassing but to maybe get you to clear things up. Lets discuss what you kind of just said if I understand things right.

You said in a post not too long ago that only two of the four cylinders were “firing”. That’s fine and logic would dictate that it has to be something between the sparkplugs and the high tension lead from the coil. The coil itself, Hall sender, ignition module, etc. just create the spark and the ignition distributor is what directs it to the individual cylinders. So if two were firing then it was not a spark creation but distribution issue.

Turning the distributor around, regardless if it is 180, 90 or 360 degrees, will not cause two more sparks to be produced, just alter where the spark travels to. So I have to assume that you didn’t physically test for “spark”, but assumed or determined that because two cylinders were clean that they were not getting any spark. If that is the case, yeah it was wrong and not real bright, then you wasted some time in the getting it running department. No real harm done and maybe a lesson learned as “no” spark is different from “incorrect firing order”, which is really what you were dealing with it seems.

[ArsenicPants]

ya, when I tested the plugs for spark i pulled them out individually and put them against metal while someone else cranked the motor
i saw spark jump
the plug leads were all 'in the right order' in that they were going to the proper plugs from the proper spot on the cap, but the distributor itself was not firing them at the right time. it was firing 3 and 4 when the ports were open instead of closed
so after i cleaned the plugs again, replaced the wires, coil, and distributor, i started the car up and tried to keep it running for a few minutes. then shut it down, and checked the plugs
1/2 were black, 3/4 were clean
i cleaned the plugs again, put them back in, put the motor to TDC, took the distributor off, rotated the engine once so it was back to TDC, put the distributor back on, and then all 4 cylinders were firing at the correct time.

doesn't the engine rotate twice for every 1 time the cams make a full rotation?

from there I adjusted the ignition timing and the throttle plate until it was idling normally
and now it runs perfectly (except for a cracked manifold )

[WaterWheels]

. . . doesn't the engine rotate twice for every 1 time the cams make a full rotation?

Yes, that is correct. Just a small tip for installing a 16v ignition distributor. The slot in the exhaust camshaft is off set just a little as are the pins on the distributor shaft (cog). It can be installed and it will spin with it installed 180° as there is a lot of slop (play) in the distributor cog. So be sure to look at the camshaft and match the distributor when installing it. But as I stated, this problem was not that the plugs were not firing but rather they were firing at the wrong time, i.e. a firing order issue (regardless if it was due to wires in the wrong position or distributor installed wrong).

[ArsenicPants]

well, thanks for your help

[rabbitnothopper]

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I can't find a pic of a ISV plug, but if you have it, you should see the difference. I think ISV have 3 wires where this is only 2.

a lot of times 3 wires go to only two connection pins on the plug

a lot of newer 1998-2003+ vw motors have those plugs (especially the injectors)
they are far superior to the older kind which tend to break