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    Thread: The JBS K04 manifold, reworked

    1. Member babarber's Avatar
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      05-16-2012 12:59 PM #51
      i think redesigning the collector area would be beneficial for you guys at jbs rather then ignoring the problem. i know alot of work goes into designing a great performance part. even after it has hit production and is released to the public problems can still arise. going to extra mile to fix these problems like doug does with his frankenturbos really demands alot of respect and loyalty in the community that is nothing short of great for business.
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    2. 05-16-2012 01:54 PM #52
      I am going to contact JBS personally and see if they want to send a manifold so I can test it. This will definitely give them the opportunity to be sure that there is an issue (or not) and if the collector porting completely solves it on a car that is truly pushed at the track and in the streets. I am sure that the community will respect them for working at addressing the issue and can vouch that I can properly and objectively test that sort of things. I hope JBS comes through and keep us excited about this awesome product.

      Car that this will be tested on is a Nationally competitive SCCA Solo and ProSolo car that is also sponsored by the best companies in the business.


      This the car this will be tested on and there is no K04 powered cars that are pushed more than this on a consistent basis

    3. 05-16-2012 02:28 PM #53
      Thanks for the UK background on the manifold Bill.

      As an old dog, I've learned that lots of field testing and customer feedback always yield a better product in the end. JBS wants this product to work more than we do. I can't imagine them ignoring all of this commentary.

      The solution isn’t as simple as we make it out though. Re-doing the primary mold, negotiating with the foundry and dealing with the current inventory will be a headache for JBS; but worth the effort for us folks who have been waiting a long time for this product. I suspect they will want to confirm all of this in-house before re-tooling.

      However, grinding out of the collector is a simple thing, even for an amateur like me. About an hour and a half worth of effort will get it done. Spartiati should come back with some important feedback soon, and I’ll do the same ….well…., not so soon.

      JBS: One other comment if you do re-tool. Take another look at the outside radius of runner #4 at the collector. The wall is somewhat thinner there than the rest (at least on mine). With the greater than 90* bend into the collector, the outer radius will take a pounding with gas erosion over time. If I were you, I would think about adding some extra material on the bend; and possibly reducing the input angle, if you can.

      Edit: The more I think about it, if I were JBS, I would load up a pallet of these manifolds and take them to the local trade school. Work out a deal with the welding/machine shop instructor and pay the advanced students $10-$20 each to grind them down. The students get to play with exotic metals as well as a performance part and JBS could write most of it off on taxes. (At least you could here in the states.)
      Last edited by Atomic Ed; 05-16-2012 at 06:56 PM.

    4. Banner Advertiser doug@frankenturbo.com's Avatar
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      05-16-2012 09:17 PM #54
      Quote Originally Posted by badger5 View Post
      runner #2 is the one which misfires in practice
      spartiati here has been able to re-produce that anomaly. So he's now positioned to figure out a work-around. If anyone can...
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    5. 05-17-2012 12:34 AM #55
      Quote Originally Posted by doug@frankenturbo.com View Post
      spartiati here has been able to re-produce that anomaly. So he's now positioned to figure out a work-around. If anyone can...
      Re-produce before the collector modification or after?

    6. 05-17-2012 05:43 AM #56
      Quote Originally Posted by Atomic Ed View Post
      Re-produce before the collector modification or after?
      Prior to the collector massaging I did. Lol.
      I haven't done any conclusive testing but the few pulls I did on the way home felt good with no breakup.

      This weekend ill hopefully have some time to do some solid 4th gear pulls at 25 psi to red line to really see what's going on.

    7. Member badger5's Avatar
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      05-17-2012 07:33 AM #57
      Quote Originally Posted by spartiati View Post
      Prior to the collector massaging I did. Lol.
      I haven't done any conclusive testing but the few pulls I did on the way home felt good with no breakup.

      This weekend ill hopefully have some time to do some solid 4th gear pulls at 25 psi to red line to really see what's going on.
      So you have ported yours again like atomic_ed did yea? Same level of porting?
      should make for some interesting results
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    8. 05-17-2012 08:40 AM #58
      Quote Originally Posted by badger5 View Post
      So you have ported yours again like atomic_ed did yea? Same level of porting?
      should make for some interesting results
      More or less I did about the same level of porting.... I also went in and tried to debur anything that may have been impeding flow and any rough inmperfections. I finalized it by going in with a flapper wheel and polished as much as I possibly could.

    9. Member badger5's Avatar
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      05-17-2012 08:45 AM #59
      Quote Originally Posted by spartiati View Post
      More or less I did about the same level of porting.... I also went in and tried to debur anything that may have been impeding flow and any rough inmperfections. I finalized it by going in with a flapper wheel and polished as much as I possibly could.
      good luck
      hope the results are +ve

      its a decent piece apart from its collector/runner share issue

      looking fwd to the results/logs etc
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    10. 05-17-2012 08:56 AM #60
      These were the work in progress pics I took. My phone died before I finished so I never had a proper completed picture of what it was like when I installed it. I smoothed it out alot more than what is in the pictures.







    11. Member badger5's Avatar
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      05-17-2012 11:02 AM #61
      Quote Originally Posted by spartiati View Post
      These were the work in progress pics I took. My phone died before I finished so I never had a proper completed picture of what it was like when I installed it. I smoothed it out alot more than what is in the pictures.







      is that some coating on there like dougs mani's?
      The jbs mani's here come bead blast as cast finished.. not coated
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    12. 05-17-2012 12:15 PM #62
      Quote Originally Posted by badger5 View Post
      is that some coating on there like dougs mani's?
      The jbs mani's here come bead blast as cast finished.. not coated

      It was delivered to me bare as well. I used VHT extreme heat coating to cover it up. 4 coats with 2 base coats of primer used. I cured it in the oven as well but during the install of banging it around and then removing it I chipped it in afew areas. The top portion looks pretty good so far. It certainly helps keep the heat down a bit.

    13. Member badger5's Avatar
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      05-18-2012 11:30 AM #63
      hows the testing going?
      all good now?

      got any logs etc?

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    14. 05-18-2012 03:41 PM #64
      Quote Originally Posted by badger5 View Post
      hows the testing going?
      all good now?

      got any logs etc?

      My dogs been really il lately. Took him to the vet and then internal specialist tomorrow. Kidney biopsies are not cheap for dogs. Ask me how I know. Hopefully by Sunday I am able to get some logs done.

    15. 05-18-2012 07:26 PM #65
      Quote Originally Posted by badger5 View Post
      is that some coating on there like dougs mani's?
      The jbs mani's here come bead blast as cast finished.. not coated
      Interesting, mine came with a coating. I assumed a ceramic coating, but now I'm not sure.

    16. Member badger5's Avatar
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      05-22-2012 08:16 AM #66
      Quote Originally Posted by spartiati View Post
      My dogs been really il lately. Took him to the vet and then internal specialist tomorrow. Kidney biopsies are not cheap for dogs. Ask me how I know. Hopefully by Sunday I am able to get some logs done.
      any luck?
      hope dogs ok
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    17. 05-22-2012 12:19 PM #67
      Quote Originally Posted by badger5 View Post
      any luck?
      hope dogs ok
      $2000 at the internal specialist and 2 procedures later he is doing better....

      No logging but afew pulls I did getting on the highway seemed like the problem was fixed.

    18. 05-24-2012 01:15 PM #68
      Hi Bill,

      I didn’t mean to cause any upset or anything along those lines hence why i mentioned no names.

      The info I have been presented with regards JP's LCR after installation of the manifold showed no misfire at any point whilst undergoing testing, I was then advised that the misfire was present after changing software and or components.

      The manifold in question was designed as a replacement for the OE unit which is a restriction as we all know. At the time of the design a number of companies were offering hybrid turbos capable of 320bhp which we took into consideration when designing it. From this point it looks as though the market has changed significantly with more companies offering K04 hybrids capable of upwards of 320bhp.

      Our test TT 225 ran both the JBS05 hybrid turbo and the JBSK04 high-flow manifold with no misfires or breakup at high RPM and still to this day is running the same setup it was using for development purposes.

      Further to the above we have a customer in central Europe running 317bhp on a hybrid K04 running a JD Engineering map, the only mention of high RPM break up mentioned to us was after running the vehicle on E85 rather than the super unleaded the vehicle was mapped on, this issue has now been resolved by changing back to super unleaded -

      I am hoping the work both Atomic Ed and Spartiati have done will eliminate the issue currently being discussed..only time will tell

      I will be running one of these on my own 1.8T Mk2 Golf shortly so Im hoping that I can put this issue to bed internally also.

    19. Member babarber's Avatar
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      05-24-2012 01:53 PM #69
      i speculate the reason why the car started breaking up with e85 is because e85 produces more exhaust gases then gasoline.
      it seems to me that your manifold because restrictive at airflow levels that the f23 and/or e85 produce and the shared runners on this manifold amplify the problem until it causes breakup or miss fires. thats why opening up the collector for these guys is producing results.

      idk about in europe but in the us people who are willing to spend that kind of $ and running a k04 hyrbrid (f23 being the most common) are gonna extract the most possible from their cars. therefore most of your customer base (in usa) will see this problem. this is just my theory so dont take it to heart but is sounds good enough for me
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    20. Member badger5's Avatar
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      05-25-2012 12:39 PM #70
      Quote Originally Posted by JBS Sales View Post
      Hi Bill,

      Our test TT 225 ran both the JBS05 hybrid turbo and the JBSK04 high-flow manifold with no misfires or breakup at high RPM and still to this day is running the same setup it was using for development purposes.

      I am hoping the work both Atomic Ed and Spartiati have done will eliminate the issue currently being discussed..only time will tell

      I will be running one of these on my own 1.8T Mk2 Golf shortly so Im hoping that I can put this issue to bed internally also.
      I didn’t mean to cause any upset or anything along those lines hence why i mentioned no names.
      No names Lee indeed, as I noted at the time, however, you tried to blame others, for a fault which clearly lies with the JBS K04 manifold design. I posted up the facts. Its not a.n.other companies issue, its a JBS issue.

      The info I have been presented with regards JP's LCR after installation of the manifold showed no misfire at any point whilst undergoing testing, I was then advised that the misfire was present after changing software and or components.
      You were advised incorrectly Lee I'm afraid.
      JP's Leon cupra R drove from JBS, with its JBS05 Hybrid K04, JBS exhaust manifold and JBS/Custom-code software and had a misfire on his way home.. and was reported back immediately, and was told it could not have been the manifold it must have been something else on the car.
      I reiterate, all yours...... no one else had intervened with that car. Only replacing the manifold some many months after has the misfire ceased.


      You could imagine this as a one off occurance, but to ignore it at the time was a mystake.


      Many months later I am invited by James to try the JBS K04 manifold sent to me to test, which I do on another leon cupra r (also running a hybrid), and encounter exactly the same thing, Misfires on Cyl 2, which again was immediately rectified by removing the JBS K04 Ex manifold.... is 100% an issue with the manifold design. This "test" cost me a whole heap of time to rectify and rework.


      From this point it looks as though the market has changed significantly with more companies offering K04 hybrids capable of upwards of 320bhp.

      BOTH leon cupra r's with misfires were doing sub 300bhp level on my dyno... whilst misfiring on cyl #2 whilst on the JBS K04 manifold.


      BOTH leon cupra r's had previously been here when on stock exhaust manifolds, and ran fine making >300bhp, misfire free on their respective softwares (neither were mine at that time)



      Big question is what is JBS doing to rectify this manifold design?

      I am hoping the work both Atomic Ed and Spartiati have done will eliminate the issue currently being discussed..only time will tell
      the porting and opening up of the collector seems to be the key area here...

      fix that and you have a great product.


      Good luck with your mk2..
      (I await some issue to be claimed from its B5 80mm TIP in due course.... or am I just being paranoid )
      Last edited by badger5; 05-25-2012 at 12:44 PM.
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    21. 05-25-2012 05:13 PM #71
      Sadly, it will be several more weeks before I put my TT on the road and/or rollers.

      The builder fired the TT up over the weekend for the first time and found the fuel trims to be way out of spec. Thinking that it was a problem with his first attempt to use Maestro, he plugged in a known ECM with a REVO stage III just to confirm the fuel trims. Same problem.

      Next was the intake leak test. Surprisingly, he found that the porosity of the casting on the new SEM intake manifold was so bad, the manifold was literally “leaking like a sieve”. The builder found several micro fractures in the casting and bleeding through of the casting material itself. (The builder is the local Audi service manager and has access to VAG leak testing equipment.)

      SEM has jumped on this and is sending a new manifold out and wants to look at this particular manifold.

      The good news is the new engine started right up and no parts wanted to push their way out the sides of the block.

      And it goes on and on……

    22. Member badger5's Avatar
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      05-26-2012 04:31 AM #72
      Quote Originally Posted by Atomic Ed View Post
      Sadly, it will be several more weeks before I put my TT on the road and/or rollers.

      The builder fired the TT up over the weekend for the first time and found the fuel trims to be way out of spec. Thinking that it was a problem with his first attempt to use Maestro, he plugged in a known ECM with a REVO stage III just to confirm the fuel trims. Same problem.

      Next was the intake leak test. Surprisingly, he found that the porosity of the casting on the new SEM intake manifold was so bad, the manifold was literally “leaking like a sieve”. The builder found several micro fractures in the casting and bleeding through of the casting material itself. (The builder is the local Audi service manager and has access to VAG leak testing equipment.)

      SEM has jumped on this and is sending a new manifold out and wants to look at this particular manifold.

      The good news is the new engine started right up and no parts wanted to push their way out the sides of the block.

      And it goes on and on……
      oh dear
      i really hope marco gets this sorted quickly @ sem
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    23. Banner Advertiser doug@frankenturbo.com's Avatar
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      05-27-2012 12:47 PM #73
      ^2

      When an SEM intake manifold went on the FrankenTT, the transition was very smooth. No software adaptations needed, no odd behavior at all. I'm sure this is an isolated problem.
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    24. 05-27-2012 01:34 PM #74
      While I’m disappointed that I’m pushed back again on getting the TT on the street, I’m not too concerned about SEM’s response. It’s just another reminder that there is no perfect manufacturing process. Small batch casting is a risky business. Most companies can’t afford a high dollar QA/QC program for low margin/low production items.

      My first thought was to just powder coat it to seal it up, but my training kicked in and said go back to SEM. I’m sure other folks that have this manifold from the same batch of manufacturing will want to keep a close eye on theirs.

    25. Member badger5's Avatar
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      05-30-2012 07:48 AM #75
      Quote Originally Posted by doug@frankenturbo.com View Post
      ^2

      When an SEM intake manifold went on the FrankenTT, the transition was very smooth. No software adaptations needed, no odd behavior at all. I'm sure this is an isolated problem.
      with IE's manifold offering launched....... in both handed otpions also, SEM need to nail the current quality issues to not loose customers. Hope they get it sorted asap, it works very well. (I run one myself modified for 8 injectors)
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