The JBS K04 manifold, reworked

[Atomic Ed]

I'm going to send these pics off to JBS with some background about the issue, the build and the F23 turbo. It will be interesting to hear back from them.

I'm sure one of the first comments will be my warranty has been voided

[JBS Sales]

Hi guys,

I’ve been following this thread for the past couple of days and I’m pretty pleased with the response the K04 manifold is receiving

The porting work on your manifold Ed certainly has voided the warranty but it’s all in the pursuit of hp so it’s all good

spartiati : are you any further forward with getting the logs for the software tech to look at?

As for 3 UK cars I only know of 2 which are on the same software done by the same company

We did have a customer based in central Europe tuned by JD Engineering that reported 'breakup' at high RPM but that turned out to be his fuel (E85) as the car was originally mapped on high octane unleaded, this 'breakup' has now since disappeared. This very customer is producing a healthy 317bhp (a little less than you guys on the F23's)

Looking at some of the discussion regards merge collectors we did extensive testing to ensure the flow was optimised and we saw no port sharing throughout the testing.

I look forward to seeing the outcome of some of the installations, especially yours Ed

[spartiati]

Hi guys,

I’ve been following this thread for the past couple of days and I’m pretty pleased with the response the K04 manifold is receiving

The porting work on your manifold Ed certainly has voided the warranty but it’s all in the pursuit of hp so it’s all good

spartiati : are you any further forward with getting the logs for the software tech to look at?

As for 3 UK cars I only know of 2 which are on the same software done by the same company

We did have a customer based in central Europe tuned by JD Engineering that reported 'breakup' at high RPM but that turned out to be his fuel (E85) as the car was originally mapped on high octane unleaded, this 'breakup' has now since disappeared. This very customer is producing a healthy 317bhp (a little less than you guys on the F23's)

Looking at some of the discussion regards merge collectors we did extensive testing to ensure the flow was optimised and we saw no port sharing throughout the testing

I look forward to seeing the outcome of some of the installations, especially yours Ed

With it being mother day weekend here stateside I figured doing full throttle runs while police are on high alert wouldn't be a good idea. Had Friday off and did basically what Ed did. I took a die grinder and reduced the divider a fair amount, polished and deburred any rough sections of the runners and the collector and reinstalled it. So far I haven't done any logging but the car pulls happily to redline at 25 psi with no breakups. I only had the opportunity for a quick 3rd gear pull so I wouldn't say I've fully tested to see if the issue is still present under a higher load like 4th gear. I'd say the porting was a success so far. Ill get some more testing done this coming weekend. Too slammed during the week to get anything done.

[Atomic Ed]

Hi guys,

I’ve been following this thread for the past couple of days and I’m pretty pleased with the response the K04 manifold is receiving

The porting work on your manifold Ed certainly has voided the warranty but it’s all in the pursuit of hp so it’s all good

spartiati : are you any further forward with getting the logs for the software tech to look at?

As for 3 UK cars I only know of 2 which are on the same software done by the same company

We did have a customer based in central Europe tuned by JD Engineering that reported 'breakup' at high RPM but that turned out to be his fuel (E85) as the car was originally mapped on high octane unleaded, this 'breakup' has now since disappeared. This very customer is producing a healthy 317bhp (a little less than you guys on the F23's)

Looking at some of the discussion regards merge collectors we did extensive testing to ensure the flow was optimised and we saw no port sharing throughout the testing.

I look forward to seeing the outcome of some of the installations, especially yours Ed

Great product guys! Kudos for putting on the market a manifold of this quality! I think I found a paper on the casting material you use and it seems to be almost impervious to heat cycling, even at 900*C. Perfect for a long term, high EGT vehicle like ours.

We are definitely pushing this manifold well beyond the 317 bhp. I believe Spartiati pushes his car to around 380 bhp on a 1.8L engine and he still has some room left to grow. Marcus will do his best to break it, given how hard he runs his TT I too want to know how all of this will behave with a big breath 2.1L, an F23 turbo and your manifold combo.

Nothing like real world testing to remind us that “all mathematical models are wrong, but some are more useful than others”.

[spartiati]

Great product guys! Kudos for putting on the market a manifold of this quality! I think I found a paper on the casting material you use and it seems to be almost impervious to heat cycling, even at 900*C. Perfect for a long term, high EGT vehicle like ours.

We are definitely pushing this manifold well beyond the 317 bhp. I believe Spartiati pushes his car to around 380 bhp on a 1.8L engine and he still has some room left to grow. Marcus will do his best to break it, given how hard he runs his TT I too want to know how all of this will behave with a big breath 2.1L, an F23 turbo and your manifold combo.

Nothing like real world testing to remind us that “all mathematical models are wrong, but some are more useful than others”.

Hehe you said it. I would have dyno'd with this manifold about 2 weeks ago if it wasnt for my little breakup issue. My best previous dyno was 335 whp corrected. That is around the 370-380bhp mark. EGT's would average a scorching 1680-1720*F post turbine. TOO HOT!!!!

With the JBS I am seeing a modest 1510* post turbine pushing it just as hard. We'll see what it does on the rollers. I'll be happy with a solid 350-360whp. Frankenturbo + JBS =

[Atomic Ed]

Hehe you said it. I would have dyno'd with this manifold about 2 weeks ago if it wasnt for my little breakup issue. My best previous dyno was 335 whp corrected. That is around the 370-380bhp mark. EGT's would average a scorching 1680-1720*F post turbine. TOO HOT!!!!

With the JBS I am seeing a modest 1510* post turbine pushing it just as hard. We'll see what it does on the rollers. I'll be happy with a solid 350-360whp. Frankenturbo + JBS =

I'm rooting for ya. 350-360 whp (400+ bhp) would put your combo in the same level as a well tuned gt2871r. You gotta love that from a turbo that could be mistaken for a stock K04-23.

The manifold has always been a major limitation. Makes me want to drag out my old ATP eliminator and see what it would do with this ported manifold.

[spartiati]

I'm rooting for ya. 350-360 whp (400+ bhp) would put your combo in the same level as a well tuned gt2871r. You gotta love that from a turbo that could be mistaken for a stock K04-23.

The manifold has always been a major limitation. Makes me want to drag out my old ATP eliminator and see what it would do with this ported manifold.

Last dyno session there was an atp 2871r kit with sem manifold and a 70mm that was watching to see what I made. He made 360whp but honestly looking at his power and he was only making more power than me from 6000-7000rpms. Otherwise I was making alot more everywhere else. Ill see if I still have his dyno and ill lay it over mine.

[doug@frankenturbo.com]

Hi guys,

I’ve been following this thread for the past couple of days and I’m pretty pleased with the response the K04 manifold is receiving
...As for 3 UK cars I only know of 2 which are on the same software done by the same company

I'd like to keep the "hearsay" about this manifold to a minimum. While it's true that I have "heard" about other people having problems you can be SURE I have also "heard" of problems in the past with any number of perfectly good performance parts. We all have. And so the community knows, I support this manifold and want it to prove worthy. So if a little bit of machining is needed to refine it, that's not a big deal at all. Let's see where this goes. I have a STRONG hunch that Steve's car has been improved with this addition.

[babarber]

I would like to see a comparison between this and Doug s manifold
Even more so I would like to see vendors offer this product in the us

[Atomic Ed]

I would like to see a comparison between this and Doug s manifold
Even more so I would like to see vendors offer this product in the us

My guess would be, real world performance wise, the two manifolds (with the mods done to the JBS mani) should be close to the same in performance. You could bench flow them both, but I'm not sure what you would do with the information. Too many varibles to deal with.

My perspective is that Doug's manifold is the best price point manifold on the market for the K04 as of today. On the other hand, the JBS manifold is made with probably the best material you can get for a manifold operated with the stress we put on them.

This isn't about one being better than the other, it's about choices, finally.

[badger5]

As for 3 UK cars I only know of 2 which are on the same software done by the same company

Same Company I suggest you look @ your products design and not look to deflect/balme others...


There are 2 Cars I know of... The SAME 2 you know of. I have told you.


To set some Facts Straight here, as you clearly are not accurately informed or trying to deflect the manifold issue elsewhere.


Car#1: Jonp, Leon Cupra R... JBS supplied and fitted k04 manifold and JBS/Custom Code software in 2010. The customer drove away after fitment of this with a misfire at higher rpms, and has chased every other mechanical/electrical component (at considerable expense to him) after your continued denial it could be the manifold. He runs your JBS05 hybrid k04, which ran fine on its stock k04 exhaust manifold and your JBS/Custom Code software made >300bhp on my dyno. You fitted the high flow ex manifold and misfires started >5.5krpms << Your hybrid, Your software, Your K04 ex manifold.

<>I have just fitted a Relentless ex manifold to this car, and guess what......... Zero misfire, runs fine, no break up at high rpms, for No Other Change from when it drove here a few days ago If this is'nt conclusive enough data, I dont know what is.


Car#2: Carl, Leon Cupra R, running Revo2, hybrid k04 with 550cc injectors and unisettings to adjust back out the oversize injectors. Car had rods fitted and jbs k04 exhaust manifold. Nothing else. Instantly on dyno misfire Exactly the same as jonp LCR did.. Many items swapped over to diagnose issue, all to no avail.. Refitted stock K04 ex manifold and again instantly back to normal, zero misfires.

So to CORRECT your misinformation, Not same Software, Not same anything.......... other than both suffered misfires after fitting the jbs k04 ex manifold.


I have rectified them for sure... by Removing the JBS hi-flow exhaust manifold.

2 cars, both Leon Cupra-R's both hybrid k04's, 2 different softwares on them when misfiring, only thing in common was Removing the JBS K04 ex manifold, Cured the misfires in Both Cases.

Looking at some of the discussion regards merge collectors we did extensive testing to ensure the flow was optimised and we saw no port sharing throughout the testing.

I suggest you review your test data, as what is being seen on these cars contradicts whatever model you have done..

As already eluded to in this thread, the small restrictive tri-collector compounds the runners from Cyl #1 & #2, and no 2 cylinder is always the one which breaks up as a consequence. Opening the collector up and the #1,#2 runners "unblock" it appears from real world testing US and UK.

Its obvious to me your Manifolds collector and runners #1,#2 caused the Misfire. This needs addressing and should not be ignored, or blamed on "other hardware" and "tuners" when it clearly is'nt.



Things these cars have in common being they both run hybrids, so the testing and others running around on these manifold are maybe not flowing or revving their cars like these two can, and at the high rpms, this breakup and misfiring looks to me to be flow related..

Rework the collector area like has been done by a couple of the guys here (good work guys) and it alleviates the runner #1,#2 share issue which causes the misfires on Cyl #2

It cant be ignored.. Its happening and for real, on more than one car..............

[20v master]

[DougLoBue]

x2

very interesting...

[warranty225cpe]

Did it just get hot in here..?

[badger5]

The only other thing that could possibly be a negative is that runners 1 and 2 merge before the collector. Given the firing order of this engine, there might be some back feed of pressure in the number 1 runner at high RPM. But JBS did run a fluid dynamics model on this design, so I'm hoping it's minimal.
.

You are very perceptive sir
runner #2 is the one which misfires in practice

[babarber]

i think redesigning the collector area would be beneficial for you guys at jbs rather then ignoring the problem. i know alot of work goes into designing a great performance part. even after it has hit production and is released to the public problems can still arise. going to extra mile to fix these problems like doug does with his frankenturbos really demands alot of respect and loyalty in the community that is nothing short of great for business.

[Marcus_Aurelius]

I am going to contact JBS personally and see if they want to send a manifold so I can test it. This will definitely give them the opportunity to be sure that there is an issue (or not) and if the collector porting completely solves it on a car that is truly pushed at the track and in the streets. I am sure that the community will respect them for working at addressing the issue and can vouch that I can properly and objectively test that sort of things. I hope JBS comes through and keep us excited about this awesome product.

Car that this will be tested on is a Nationally competitive SCCA Solo and ProSolo car that is also sponsored by the best companies in the business.


This the car this will be tested on and there is no K04 powered cars that are pushed more than this on a consistent basis

[Atomic Ed]

Thanks for the UK background on the manifold Bill.

As an old dog, I've learned that lots of field testing and customer feedback always yield a better product in the end. JBS wants this product to work more than we do. I can't imagine them ignoring all of this commentary.

The solution isn’t as simple as we make it out though. Re-doing the primary mold, negotiating with the foundry and dealing with the current inventory will be a headache for JBS; but worth the effort for us folks who have been waiting a long time for this product. I suspect they will want to confirm all of this in-house before re-tooling.

However, grinding out of the collector is a simple thing, even for an amateur like me. About an hour and a half worth of effort will get it done. Spartiati should come back with some important feedback soon, and I’ll do the same ….well…., not so soon.

JBS: One other comment if you do re-tool. Take another look at the outside radius of runner #4 at the collector. The wall is somewhat thinner there than the rest (at least on mine). With the greater than 90* bend into the collector, the outer radius will take a pounding with gas erosion over time. If I were you, I would think about adding some extra material on the bend; and possibly reducing the input angle, if you can.

Edit: The more I think about it, if I were JBS, I would load up a pallet of these manifolds and take them to the local trade school. Work out a deal with the welding/machine shop instructor and pay the advanced students $10-$20 each to grind them down. The students get to play with exotic metals as well as a performance part and JBS could write most of it off on taxes. (At least you could here in the states.)

[doug@frankenturbo.com]

runner #2 is the one which misfires in practice

spartiati here has been able to re-produce that anomaly. So he's now positioned to figure out a work-around. If anyone can...

[Atomic Ed]

spartiati here has been able to re-produce that anomaly. So he's now positioned to figure out a work-around. If anyone can...

Re-produce before the collector modification or after?

[spartiati]

Re-produce before the collector modification or after?

Prior to the collector massaging I did. Lol.
I haven't done any conclusive testing but the few pulls I did on the way home felt good with no breakup.

This weekend ill hopefully have some time to do some solid 4th gear pulls at 25 psi to red line to really see what's going on.

[badger5]

Prior to the collector massaging I did. Lol.
I haven't done any conclusive testing but the few pulls I did on the way home felt good with no breakup.

This weekend ill hopefully have some time to do some solid 4th gear pulls at 25 psi to red line to really see what's going on.

So you have ported yours again like atomic_ed did yea? Same level of porting?
should make for some interesting results

[spartiati]

So you have ported yours again like atomic_ed did yea? Same level of porting?
should make for some interesting results

More or less I did about the same level of porting.... I also went in and tried to debur anything that may have been impeding flow and any rough inmperfections. I finalized it by going in with a flapper wheel and polished as much as I possibly could.

[badger5]

More or less I did about the same level of porting.... I also went in and tried to debur anything that may have been impeding flow and any rough inmperfections. I finalized it by going in with a flapper wheel and polished as much as I possibly could.

good luck
hope the results are +ve

its a decent piece apart from its collector/runner share issue

looking fwd to the results/logs etc

[spartiati]

These were the work in progress pics I took. My phone died before I finished so I never had a proper completed picture of what it was like when I installed it. I smoothed it out alot more than what is in the pictures.

[badger5]

These were the work in progress pics I took. My phone died before I finished so I never had a proper completed picture of what it was like when I installed it. I smoothed it out alot more than what is in the pictures.

is that some coating on there like dougs mani's?
The jbs mani's here come bead blast as cast finished.. not coated

[spartiati]

is that some coating on there like dougs mani's?
The jbs mani's here come bead blast as cast finished.. not coated

It was delivered to me bare as well. I used VHT extreme heat coating to cover it up. 4 coats with 2 base coats of primer used. I cured it in the oven as well but during the install of banging it around and then removing it I chipped it in afew areas. The top portion looks pretty good so far. It certainly helps keep the heat down a bit.

[badger5]

hows the testing going?
all good now?

got any logs etc?

[spartiati]

hows the testing going?
all good now?

got any logs etc?

My dogs been really il lately. Took him to the vet and then internal specialist tomorrow. Kidney biopsies are not cheap for dogs. Ask me how I know. Hopefully by Sunday I am able to get some logs done.

[Atomic Ed]

is that some coating on there like dougs mani's?
The jbs mani's here come bead blast as cast finished.. not coated

Interesting, mine came with a coating. I assumed a ceramic coating, but now I'm not sure.

[badger5]

My dogs been really il lately. Took him to the vet and then internal specialist tomorrow. Kidney biopsies are not cheap for dogs. Ask me how I know. Hopefully by Sunday I am able to get some logs done.

any luck?
hope dogs ok

[spartiati]

any luck?
hope dogs ok

$2000 at the internal specialist and 2 procedures later he is doing better....

No logging but afew pulls I did getting on the highway seemed like the problem was fixed.

[JBS Sales]

Hi Bill,

I didn’t mean to cause any upset or anything along those lines hence why i mentioned no names.

The info I have been presented with regards JP's LCR after installation of the manifold showed no misfire at any point whilst undergoing testing, I was then advised that the misfire was present after changing software and or components.

The manifold in question was designed as a replacement for the OE unit which is a restriction as we all know. At the time of the design a number of companies were offering hybrid turbos capable of 320bhp which we took into consideration when designing it. From this point it looks as though the market has changed significantly with more companies offering K04 hybrids capable of upwards of 320bhp.

Our test TT 225 ran both the JBS05 hybrid turbo and the JBSK04 high-flow manifold with no misfires or breakup at high RPM and still to this day is running the same setup it was using for development purposes.

Further to the above we have a customer in central Europe running 317bhp on a hybrid K04 running a JD Engineering map, the only mention of high RPM break up mentioned to us was after running the vehicle on E85 rather than the super unleaded the vehicle was mapped on, this issue has now been resolved by changing back to super unleaded -

I am hoping the work both Atomic Ed and Spartiati have done will eliminate the issue currently being discussed..only time will tell

I will be running one of these on my own 1.8T Mk2 Golf shortly so Im hoping that I can put this issue to bed internally also.

[babarber]

i speculate the reason why the car started breaking up with e85 is because e85 produces more exhaust gases then gasoline.
it seems to me that your manifold because restrictive at airflow levels that the f23 and/or e85 produce and the shared runners on this manifold amplify the problem until it causes breakup or miss fires. thats why opening up the collector for these guys is producing results.

idk about in europe but in the us people who are willing to spend that kind of $ and running a k04 hyrbrid (f23 being the most common) are gonna extract the most possible from their cars. therefore most of your customer base (in usa) will see this problem. this is just my theory so dont take it to heart but is sounds good enough for me

[badger5]

Hi Bill,

Our test TT 225 ran both the JBS05 hybrid turbo and the JBSK04 high-flow manifold with no misfires or breakup at high RPM and still to this day is running the same setup it was using for development purposes.

I am hoping the work both Atomic Ed and Spartiati have done will eliminate the issue currently being discussed..only time will tell

I will be running one of these on my own 1.8T Mk2 Golf shortly so Im hoping that I can put this issue to bed internally also.

I didn’t mean to cause any upset or anything along those lines hence why i mentioned no names.

No names Lee indeed, as I noted at the time, however, you tried to blame others, for a fault which clearly lies with the JBS K04 manifold design. I posted up the facts. Its not a.n.other companies issue, its a JBS issue.

The info I have been presented with regards JP's LCR after installation of the manifold showed no misfire at any point whilst undergoing testing, I was then advised that the misfire was present after changing software and or components.

You were advised incorrectly Lee I'm afraid.
JP's Leon cupra R drove from JBS, with its JBS05 Hybrid K04, JBS exhaust manifold and JBS/Custom-code software and had a misfire on his way home.. and was reported back immediately, and was told it could not have been the manifold it must have been something else on the car.
I reiterate, all yours...... no one else had intervened with that car. Only replacing the manifold some many months after has the misfire ceased.


You could imagine this as a one off occurance, but to ignore it at the time was a mystake.


Many months later I am invited by James to try the JBS K04 manifold sent to me to test, which I do on another leon cupra r (also running a hybrid), and encounter exactly the same thing, Misfires on Cyl 2, which again was immediately rectified by removing the JBS K04 Ex manifold.... is 100% an issue with the manifold design. This "test" cost me a whole heap of time to rectify and rework.

From this point it looks as though the market has changed significantly with more companies offering K04 hybrids capable of upwards of 320bhp.

BOTH leon cupra r's with misfires were doing sub 300bhp level on my dyno... whilst misfiring on cyl #2 whilst on the JBS K04 manifold.


BOTH leon cupra r's had previously been here when on stock exhaust manifolds, and ran fine making >300bhp, misfire free on their respective softwares (neither were mine at that time)



Big question is what is JBS doing to rectify this manifold design?

I am hoping the work both Atomic Ed and Spartiati have done will eliminate the issue currently being discussed..only time will tell

the porting and opening up of the collector seems to be the key area here...

fix that and you have a great product.


Good luck with your mk2..
(I await some issue to be claimed from its B5 80mm TIP in due course.... or am I just being paranoid )