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    Thread: Haldex Sport controller = increased wear & tear?

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      05-06-2012 11:51 PM #51
      Quote Originally Posted by petef View Post
      You may be confused - no worries.

      First possible confusion - under acceleration all four wheels do not have equal traction. During acceleration weight shifts to the rear which unloads the fronts and causes them to lose traction. They begin to slip waaay before all the available engine torque is transferred to the pavement. Meanwhile the rears gain traction because of the rearward weight transfer.

      Second confusion - the Haldex only sends power to the rear tires when the fronts start to slip/spin. Otherwise the split is 90/10 by default. As long as you drive gently so that you don't cause the fronts to slip you will never engage the Haldex whether its in Race or Normal.

      Third confusion - during a dyno pull (esp with an FI motor) the front tires will be overloaded (slipping) during most of the pull so there will be rear power transfer during most of the pull. If the engine is strong enough you'll easily hit "maximum" rear transfer as shown in the dyno traces. No dyno tricks needed.
      1. The OP seems to imply that he wants equal traction meaning all on dry surface, not under loss of traction condition.

      2. Haldex can send power to the rear axle w/o the front wheels spinning. The controller receives information from steering wheel angle, accelerator depression rate to determine whether the likelyhood of potential front wheel traction loss and pre-engages the clutch before there is actual slippage. That is why the preferred way of driving the haldex AWD unit is not to get off the brake and slam the accelerator right away, since doing that does not give the haldex unit enough time anticipate the potential wheel slip situation. Getting on the throttle moderately and then going full throttle a short while later will usually result in power laid out in all wheels.

      3. From the dyno graph, One can assume the max clutch pressure determines the how much power goes to the rear axle, with its peak power transfer of 170 power units, which is indicates some slippage given the front axle still delivers more power. This will also be different depending on the gear the dyno run was on since the torque output from the transmission would be different in each gear.

      Quote Originally Posted by motrrrpsycho View Post
      In a 500 yard/meter strait line acceleration test starting from 0 MPH with all 4 wheels having equal traction (dry, warm, clean asphalt, good tires on the car so really good traction), using 80% throttle will the % of torque sent to the rear be roughly equal to / represented by the dyno plots through the entire distance / duration of the acceleration?
      This should be calculatable, they could just take the reading off the oil pressure reading off the haldex unit to determine how much of the torque is transferred to the rear axle, integrate it over the true torque output based on RPM/gear to determine the torque transfer cutoff point to the rear axle. But with a straight line acceleration where you don't loose traction won't be that interesting. If those data are collected over a road course, you can determine when AWD power are laid down and when it is not.

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      05-07-2012 01:17 AM #52
      Quote Originally Posted by LWNY View Post
      2. Haldex can send power to the rear axle w/o the front wheels spinning. The controller receives information from steering wheel angle, accelerator depression rate to determine whether the likelyhood of potential front wheel traction loss and pre-engages the clutch before there is actual slippage.
      Not on Gen 1 and Gen2. The hydraulic pressure to engage the clutch comes from the speed differential between the front and rear axles. Granted, the Haldex clutch can engage in "as little as 1/8th of a tire rotation" according to the VW documentation, but there is absolutely no way to "pre-engage" the Haldex on a Mk4 or Mk5 car.

      The GoRf (Mk6) is on Haldex v4, which uses an electric pump for hydraulics and it can pre-engage.

      That is why the preferred way of driving the haldex AWD unit is not to get off the brake and slam the accelerator right away, since doing that does not give the haldex unit enough time anticipate the potential wheel slip situation. Getting on the throttle moderately and then going full throttle a short while later will usually result in power laid out in all wheels.
      This is generally the best way to go fast on any car. Smooth = fast. You can drive an Evo and a GT-R like a pillock because the computers are more sophisticated (they have far more information than the Haldex does) and because the couplings are more advanced (electronically engaged clutches, etc).

      For whoever it was that asked for more info on the signals Haldex can see - I've found two different documents. VW SSP 206 is Mk4 specific, but the ideas are similar. VW SSP 333 is for a "2004" Mk5 chassis (it's from Germany and they got the Mk5 around then), so I'm assuming this is the Gen2 coupling. It's also covers the Transporter; interesting to see that the Transporter's version is similar but different from ours.
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      05-07-2012 02:12 AM #53
      Quote Originally Posted by ZPrime View Post
      Not on Gen 1 and Gen2. The hydraulic pressure to engage the clutch comes from the speed differential between the front and rear axles. Granted, the Haldex clutch can engage in "as little as 1/8th of a tire rotation" according to the VW documentation, but there is absolutely no way to "pre-engage" the Haldex on a Mk4 or Mk5 car.

      The GoRf (Mk6) is on Haldex v4, which uses an electric pump for hydraulics and it can pre-engage.
      There is always a speed differential between the front and rear wheels, given most of the weight are in the front and it compresses the tires more thus making its rolling diameter slightly smaller. Plus, one is never driving in a straight line forever, there are always turns, however small, where the rear wheels don't follow the front exactly, causing more rotational differences. Thus, when in a turn, it is where the greatest rotational difference between the front and rear without any wheel losing grip, the haldex pump has generated more than enough pressure to pre-engage the clutch if it deems required (based on accelerator position, amount of G force encountered, steerinng wheel position, etc).


      Quote Originally Posted by ZPrime View Post
      This is generally the best way to go fast on any car. Smooth = fast. You can drive an Evo and a GT-R like a pillock because the computers are more sophisticated (they have far more information than the Haldex does) and because the couplings are more advanced (electronically engaged clutches, etc).
      On a torsen based car, you can go from full brake to full throttle since there will be no slippage during that transition, but on the haldex based unit, if you go from full trail baking to full throttle as soon as you hit the apex, you will go into serious understeer, especially in low grip condition, and even if the haldex engages, it usually can't undo the understeer because the coefficient of friction on a sliding tire is lower than a tire in grip, thus the front tires will keep on sliding. But if you just give that slight throttle for a split second before jamming the throttle (no need for smooth), the haldex unit already determined you are in a situation where you power should be spread to both axles and you will not encounter wheelslip at the front, and if there is wheelslip, it should be on all 4 wheels and you will be going sideways.

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      05-07-2012 11:03 AM #54
      Quote Originally Posted by LWNY View Post
      There is always a speed differential between the front and rear wheels, given most of the weight are in the front and it compresses the tires more thus making its rolling diameter slightly smaller.
      Can you point us at info that supports this?

      Quote Originally Posted by LWNY View Post
      Plus, one is never driving in a straight line forever, there are always turns, however small, where the rear wheels don't follow the front exactly, causing more rotational differences. Thus, when in a turn, it is where the greatest rotational difference between the front and rear without any wheel losing grip, the haldex pump has generated more than enough pressure to pre-engage the clutch if it deems required (based on accelerator position, amount of G force encountered, steerinng wheel position, etc).
      This doesn't change anything Zprime or myself said. The Gen 2 Haldex cannot pre-engage, mate. It has to encounter front wheel slip before anything happens. No slip = no Haldex action.

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      05-07-2012 11:42 AM #55
      Quote Originally Posted by petef View Post
      Can you point us at info that supports this?



      This doesn't change anything Zprime or myself said. The Gen 2 Haldex cannot pre-engage, mate. It has to encounter front wheel slip before anything happens. No slip = no Haldex action.
      Stock, with no wheel slip you still get power to the rear wheels. Its simply biased heavily to the front wheels providing the power.

      As can be seen by this dyno graph ( the wheels do not slip on the dyno, and its linked it does not think its slipping )

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      05-07-2012 12:54 PM #56
      Quote Originally Posted by LWNY View Post
      1. The OP seems to imply that he wants equal traction meaning all on dry surface, not under loss of traction condition.

      Yes, this is exactly what I was asking. However, it appears from all the debate and Keir's commentary that this is NOT the case. The 'Race' Haldex does not turn the .:R into a *RWD-biased car*in everyday conditions (well, 50/50 anyways), which is specifically the answer I was hoping for and was also the wear & tear issue I would expect if this were the case, ie: 40k down the road having run with that heavy rear-torque bias.

      As per Keir's and others' answers, all the Haldex change does is increase the speed, frequency and 'volume' of torque that is applied in conditions when warranted. This is obviously better than stock, but not quite what I had hoped for.
      Last edited by AmRando; 05-07-2012 at 01:50 PM.

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      05-07-2012 12:59 PM #57
      Quote Originally Posted by Sales@HPAmotorsports View Post
      Stock, with no wheel slip you still get power to the rear wheels. Its simply biased heavily to the front wheels providing the power.

      As can be seen by this dyno graph ( the wheels do not slip on the dyno, and its linked it does not think its slipping )
      I stand corrected (don't you hate it when that happens?) Two missing data points (no wheel slip on dyno and linked rollers) make all the difference, yes?

      This also answers the OP's question pretty clearly. If you run in Race you're putting more torque through the rear diff on a continuous basis. This will increase the wear on the rear diff and possibly the Haldex (not sayin' its a bad thing, just trying to be accurate).

      Part 2 - F/R slip is required to move the Haldex off the default splits shown on the dyno, ie, more to the rear than the nominal split (90/10 or whatever). Without slip there's no change in the nominal split, correct?

      Part 3 - what is max transfer possible front to rear - 50/50? Or could we momentarily see 20/80 in some situations?

      Much appreciated - thanks.

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      05-07-2012 01:58 PM #58
      Quote Originally Posted by petef View Post

      This also answers the OP's question pretty clearly. If you run in Race you're putting more torque through the rear diff on a continuous basis. This will increase the wear on the rear diff and possibly the Haldex (not sayin' its a bad thing, just trying to be accurate).

      Part 2 - F/R slip is required to move the Haldex off the default splits shown on the dyno, ie, more to the rear than the nominal split (90/10 or whatever). Without slip there's no change in the nominal split, correct?

      Isn't this contradictory? If you're running in Race mode you're NOT 'putting more torque through the rear diff on a continuous basis', I'm pretty sure that's what everyone has said? The drivetrain will continue to use the default bias UNTIL it encounters wheelslip, and then it will pump up to a 50/50 bias. So in everyday, mundane driving it won't be creating additional wear on the drivetrain components constantly while driving- that was really my concern. If in wheelslip conditions it's doing so, well so be it- that's only a small percentage of average use anyways.


      Really what I wanted to know was two-fold:

      Whether the controller changes the handling of the car in average real-world use (possible oversteer at the limits, obviously) and whether this change would induce significantly more wear on the rear drivetrain. And if I read the thread correctly, it sounds like no on both counts.
      Last edited by AmRando; 05-07-2012 at 02:02 PM.

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      05-07-2012 02:20 PM #59
      Quote Originally Posted by AmRando View Post
      Isn't this contradictory? If you're running in Race mode you're NOT 'putting more torque through the rear diff on a continuous basis', I'm pretty sure that's what everyone has said? The drivetrain will continue to use the default bias UNTIL it encounters wheelslip, and then it will pump up to a 50/50 bias. So in everyday, mundane driving it won't be creating additional wear on the drivetrain components constantly while driving- that was really my concern. If in wheelslip conditions it's doing so, well so be it- that's only a small percentage of average use anyways.


      Really what I wanted to know was two-fold:

      Whether the controller changes the handling of the car in average real-world use (possible oversteer at the limits, obviously) and whether this change would induce significantly more wear on the rear drivetrain. And if I read the thread correctly, it sounds like no on both counts.
      Yes this changes your day to day impact with the Haldex. As quoted from our site as well:

      " The advantages of this HPP upgrade are it’s ability to predict the onset of torque. This upgrade takes into account the TPS signal more so than the OEM software and therefore can proactively begin applying power to the RWD clutch packs before wheel spin begins."

      Either controller in Race ( Competition or switchable ) will apply more torque to the rear axles in all situations, dry, wet, snowy, balmy, windy, even in a tornado you've got more to the rear axle. If your foot is to the floor, the most amount of torque available ( IE whatever is not being used by the front axles ) will be sent.

      Should be no perceivable drivetrain wear. Its hard to say this as we'd have to have someone drive their car stock, while driving a completely separate clone with the Race controller to give a back to back comparison. However Hadlex does refuse to make controllers for rear ends that cannot take any more power then the OEM has allowed for in other makes/models.
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      05-07-2012 04:07 PM #60
      Quote Originally Posted by AmRando View Post
      Isn't this contradictory? If you're running in Race mode you're NOT 'putting more torque through the rear diff on a continuous basis', I'm pretty sure that's what everyone has said? The drivetrain will continue to use the default bias UNTIL it encounters wheelslip, and then it will pump up to a 50/50 bias. So in everyday, mundane driving it won't be creating additional wear on the drivetrain components constantly while driving- that was really my concern. If in wheelslip conditions it's doing so, well so be it- that's only a small percentage of average use anyways.
      What may trip people up (including me ) is there are two parts to the Haldex behavior and we tend to mix them up or only focus on one:

      1) What happens when all wheels have full traction vs. 2) what happens once the fronts lose traction.

      Kier is saying that the 'full traction state' always sends power to the rear - the switch changes the F/R ratio (and some dynamic behavior). The dyno charts show this behavior, not the dynamic aspect.

      With front tire slip a dynamic transfer occurs - stock might roll at 90/10 around town but if you hit a slick spot you might get as much as 50/50 transferred briefly and then once the fronts grip it goes back to 90/10. This is what I was focused on.

      So - daily wear and tear in the 'full traction state' is increased by the Sport and Race settings over stock because the Haldex is always putting more torque to the rear no matter what.

      Dynamic F/R transfer is caused by front wheel slip so the switch settings don't affect it (much - Kier says the transfer is a bit more aggressive).

      Not contradictory so much as two halves of the same coin?

      Looking back at this thread I see half of us were talking 'full traction' behavior while the other half were talking 'dynamic transfer'. Dang.


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      05-07-2012 04:14 PM #61
      Petef: To answer your "Part 3" question above:

      Yes/no. Haldex will send up to 100% of the available torque to the rear; but you have to remember we are talking torque here. As was described beautifully earlier in the thread: if you have 0 traction on a wheel then you have 0 torque. So; if both front wheels are slipping heavily and have no traction, all available torque will be routed to the rear to keep forward momentum possible. However; in routine, even track driving, I don't think you could "realistically" see much beyond a 50/50 power scenario.

      I suppose you could get momentary points where the rear is getting more like 75% of available torque; but that would be because the front wheels have near 0 traction and you are likely sliding in an understeer nosedive anyway
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      05-07-2012 05:00 PM #62
      Quote Originally Posted by petef View Post
      What may trip people up (including me ) is there are two parts to the Haldex behavior and we tend to mix them up or only focus on one:

      1) What happens when all wheels have full traction vs. 2) what happens once the fronts lose traction.

      Kier is saying that the 'full traction state' always sends power to the rear - the switch changes the F/R ratio (and some dynamic behavior). The dyno charts show this behavior, not the dynamic aspect.
      But, no- he isn't.

      Quote Originally Posted by Sales@HPAmotorsports View Post
      As quoted from our site as well:

      " The advantages of this HPP upgrade are it’s ability to predict the onset of torque. This upgrade takes into account the TPS signal more so than the OEM software and therefore can proactively begin applying power to the RWD clutch packs before wheel spin begins."

      Either controller in Race ( Competition or switchable ) will apply more torque to the rear axles in all situations, dry, wet, snowy, balmy, windy, even in a tornado you've got more to the rear axle. If your foot is to the floor, the most amount of torque available ( IE whatever is not being used by the front axles ) will be sent.
      These conditions appear to be all based on the TPS signal, not the traction state.

      He's not talking about 'full traction state', because as most here seem to have agreed real-world conditions are always changing. Keir's contention that 'Yes this changes your day to day impact with the Haldex' is a Marketing-speak-bias -50/50? because YES, the controller will kick in more aggressively more often, but it isn't ON BY DEFAULT at a 50/50 bias at a steady speed on dry pavement (.. or is it? Noone seems to have literally answered this). During the dyno pull, this is an acceleration state generating uneven traction- OF COURSE the race controller is active. But if you ran that dyno test with the cruise control on, what happens when the system reaches a steady speed with stable traction conditions? Does it continue to distribute 50% power(my correction) to the rear indefinitely, or does it reapply this to the front wheels once that state is reached?

      I think the misunderestimation here is what factors the race controller accounts for and whether it really has an 'off' state at all - all FWD torque under ideal conditions as per the stock controller.

      -TPS signal - throttle state (the onset of torque)
      -wheel slip
      -???
      Last edited by AmRando; 05-07-2012 at 06:25 PM.

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      05-07-2012 05:04 PM #63
      Yes, to Saabstory02's quote. Too many ppl get torque and power mixed up with each other. 50:50 power distribution is not the same as 50:50 torque distribution. I try not to mix the two up, but when jumping back and forth between the two on discussion of torque transfer and power transfer, it is easy to assume it is the same discussion.


      Quote Originally Posted by petef View Post
      Can you point us at info that supports this?
      It is quoted in the PDF doc above. It is also a common knowledge of how wheel rotation works on a car.


      Quote Originally Posted by petef View Post
      This doesn't change anything Zprime or myself said. The Gen 2 Haldex cannot pre-engage, mate. It has to encounter front wheel slip before anything happens. No slip = no Haldex action.
      It is quoted in the HPA post:


      " The advantages of this HPP upgrade are it’s ability to predict the onset of torque. This upgrade takes into account the TPS signal more so than the OEM software and therefore can proactively begin applying power to the RWD clutch packs before wheel spin begins."


      That means, before torque is applied..thus before the onset of slip. One thing of issue is that, this quote is stated for the HPC controller. It actually is a fuction of Haldex. You do not need the HPC controller to have preemptive AWD

      Quote Originally Posted by AmRando View Post
      I think the misunderestimation here is what factors the race controller accounts for and whether it really has an 'off' state at all - all FWD torque under ideal conditions as per the stock controller.

      -TPS signal - throttle state (the onset of torque)
      -wheel slip
      -???
      As the doc indicates, haldex takes info from Accelerator pedal, steering wheel angle sensor, accelerometer sensors, wheel slip sensors and factor all of them in to determine when clutch engagement is necessarily.

      And as the doc state, the pressure valve allows full pressure on the clutchpack even when pressure is not generated anymore by the differential pump. Thus if you are still driving on the twisties after recoving from a low grip situation, it can stay at full AWD mode until deemed unnecessarily. That "unnecessarily" consists of many factors, such as speed, acceleration, etc. Scenarios are all described in the docs from above.


      As to the wear and tear of the haldex. The oil pressure of 1500 psi allows it to transfer around 1500 ft/lb of torque transfer. Anything beyond that, the clutch will slip and not transfer that to the rear axle and indeed will cause wear to the clutchpack. That would more likely occur on the very low gears where the torque out to the driveline is very high.

      As for the drivability, it will allow for for a more tail out feeling, especially if driven hard. If the haldex clutchpack locks, the rear axle will be forced to turn at the same rate as the front axle. This will cause it, instead of taking the shorter path that the rear axle usually takes, a longer path dictated by the equal amount of rotation required, thus a wider path, hence a feeling of the rear coming out in turns...not unlike the torque vectoring differentials.
      Last edited by LWNY; 05-07-2012 at 05:16 PM.

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      05-07-2012 05:49 PM #64
      Quote Originally Posted by LWNY View Post
      It is quoted in the PDF doc above. It is also a common knowledge of how wheel rotation works on a car.
      Thanks - will read the doc with great interest.

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      05-07-2012 05:53 PM #65
      Quote Originally Posted by AmRando View Post
      But, no- he isn't.
      Is it too late to apologize for stinking up your thread? I really thought I understood the Haldex but clearly...

      I'll go quietly you honor...

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      05-07-2012 06:22 PM #66
      Quote Originally Posted by petef View Post
      Is it too late to apologize for stinking up your thread? I really thought I understood the Haldex but clearly...

      I'll go quietly you honor...

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      05-07-2012 06:49 PM #67
      Quote Originally Posted by LWNY View Post
      That means, before torque is applied..thus before the onset of slip. One thing of issue is that, this quote is stated for the HPC controller. It actually is a fuction of Haldex. You do not need the HPC controller to have preemptive AWD
      This part I understood from the start, the race controller is simply more aggressive in doing so.


      Quote Originally Posted by LWNY View Post
      As the doc indicates, haldex takes info from Accelerator pedal, steering wheel angle sensor, accelerometer sensors, wheel slip sensors and factor all of them in to determine when clutch engagement is necessarily.
      And as the doc state, the pressure valve allows full pressure on the clutchpack even when pressure is not generated anymore by the differential pump. Thus if you are still driving on the twisties after recoving from a low grip situation, it can stay at full AWD mode until deemed unnecessarily. That "unnecessarily" consists of many factors, such as speed, acceleration, etc. Scenarios are all described in the docs from above.
      So it will not stay in this state indefinitely.


      Quote Originally Posted by LWNY View Post
      As to the wear and tear of the haldex. The oil pressure of 1500 psi allows it to transfer around 1500 ft/lb of torque transfer. Anything beyond that, the clutch will slip and not transfer that to the rear axle and indeed will cause wear to the clutchpack. That would more likely occur on the very low gears where the torque out to the driveline is very high.
      And if the controller is not in the engaged-state indefinitely, that allays my concern about wear and tear - I was afraid a full-time engagement over 30.. 50, 70,000km would cause excessive wear on the system.

      Quote Originally Posted by LWNY View Post
      As for the drivability, it will allow for for a more tail out feeling, especially if driven hard. If the haldex clutchpack locks, the rear axle will be forced to turn at the same rate as the front axle. This will cause it, instead of taking the shorter path that the rear axle usually takes, a longer path dictated by the equal amount of rotation required, thus a wider path, hence a feeling of the rear coming out in turns...not unlike the torque vectoring differentials.
      And this addresses Keir's contention that 'Yes this changes your day to day impact with the Haldex.' The car will feel different, but not to the extent I had been led to believe. Thank you one and all.

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      05-08-2012 10:38 AM #68
      It's too bad that the stock controller can't be reprogrammed to do a demo mode like APR chip tuning for 6 hours or whatever, so owners could get a fair idea of the difference in operation of this upgrade.

      I, too, have been curious if the Haldex upgrade makes the R drive perceptibly different even in normal day-to-day driving, or if it is something that really needs to be appreciated at limits.

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      05-08-2012 10:41 AM #69
      find another local R owner with a haldex switch and ask for a ride?
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      05-08-2012 12:32 PM #70
      Quote Originally Posted by abeR View Post
      find another local R owner with a haldex switch and ask for a ride?
      + that.


      With the HPA controller and switch you can go from stock mode to race mode so you would be able see what the difference really is. My switch is sitting on the spare wheel in the hatch since I never change modes. I think I will pull it out of there and do some driving in the different modes this weekend to see what the real difference is. I perceived a change when I put the controller in, but I never did any real comparisons of the modes.
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      05-08-2012 12:33 PM #71
      Quote Originally Posted by oidoglr View Post
      ...I, too, have been curious if the Haldex upgrade makes the R drive perceptibly different even in normal day-to-day driving, or if it is something that really needs to be appreciated at limits.
      The Blue HPP was definitely noticeable on my MK IV R32. Even something as mundane as pulling out of a driveway and turning uphill lets you feel the rear wheels pushing the car forward, rather than just the front wheels pulling it forward.

      And during spirited driving, it forces the rear wheels to take a wider track around corners, even pushing the rear out on command with some extra throttle input.

      Do it! I guarantee that you won't be disappointed! This is how the car should have been equipped when new.

      --Chuck--

    22. Member
      Join Date
      Oct 28th, 2004
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      Wstchstr Cnty, NY
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      2012 Golf R DBM
      05-08-2012 12:37 PM #72
      Quote Originally Posted by AmRando View Post
      ...And if the controller is not in the engaged-state indefinitely, that allays my concern about wear and tear - I was afraid a full-time engagement over 30.. 50, 70,000km would cause excessive wear on the system...
      A fully-engaged Haldex that never lets go will eventually overheat and fail.
      None of the controllers would knowingly allow that to happen unless they're faulty.

      --Chuck--

    23. Member
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      '08 Specialized Roubaix
      05-08-2012 12:46 PM #73
      Quote Originally Posted by abeR View Post
      find another local R owner with a haldex switch and ask for a ride?
      Okay. Anyone in Minneapolis area with one?

      I can pay in pizza and beer.

    24. Senior Member abeR's Avatar
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      3.2 electric boogaloo bitches
      05-08-2012 12:49 PM #74
      Quote Originally Posted by oidoglr View Post
      Okay. Anyone in Minneapolis area with one?

      I can pay in pizza and beer.

      zevion


      there have to be a few others in the area
      WITW

    25. Member 10Ten's Avatar
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      heavy understeer and snap oversteer. PQ35 perfect.
      05-08-2012 01:26 PM #75
      Quote Originally Posted by speedbump2 View Post
      The Blue HPP was definitely noticeable on my MK IV R32. Even something as mundane as pulling out of a driveway and turning uphill lets you feel the rear wheels pushing the car forward, rather than just the front wheels pulling it forward.

      And during spirited driving, it forces the rear wheels to take a wider track around corners, even pushing the rear out on command with some extra throttle input.

      Do it! I guarantee that you won't be disappointed! This is how the car should have been equipped when new.

      --Chuck--
      agreed. if i couldn't tell the difference then i wouldn't leave it in Race mode 24 7 365. cus Race mode also costs an extra 1mpg in my car. worth every drop.
      function/form

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