Wiring HELP

[Hoppy92]

Well there are nothing connected to the pigtails anymore they are just attached to the wire with nothing connected to them.

[Hoppy92]

So I've been thinking about how sick i am of not being able to drive my damn car so I have been thinking about PLAN B.... I have a 98 jetta wolfsburg edition 2.0 with a blown tranny. How complex would the motor&electrical swap be from my 92 electrical system to the OBD II Electrical system in the 98?

[tolusina]

Are you still getting a single spark when switching on the key?
That single spark indicates power through the coil and that the power stage pulls the negative to ground so the coil windings saturate, then the negaitive releases making the single spark.
That single spark says lots of stuff is working, narrows possibilities quite a bit.
Re-read post #17 back on page 1, never mind (for now) the pics and comments.

[Hoppy92]

So reading post #17 and checking out the link to the other thread and I did the whole middle connector of the distributer "pick up?" and jumped it to ground and the coil sparked every time I took the jumper off the ground.
I'm not sure what this determains?

[tolusina]

It means that you just determined that the car doesn't spark because the ECU isn't getting a Hall signal.
You know this because you just simulated the Hall signal.

Don't throw a Hall generator in it just yet, first you must verify the the Hall generator is getting voltage and ground.
Power is on the red/black wire, ground is the brown/yellow.

[Hoppy92]

so there is power going to the ground not sure if my battery is a little low on power but there was 11.09 volts to the red and black wire using a multimeter but i didn't get anything when i tested for ground with my test light. hooked the alligator clip on the positive post of the battery and then test light end on the brow and yellow terminal and got nothing what other way is the to test for ground?

[tolusina]

...... i didn't get anything when i tested for ground with my test light. hooked the alligator clip on the positive post of the battery and then test light end on the brow and yellow terminal and got nothing what other way is the to test for ground?

This is diagnostic progress.
Yes, there are other ways to test grounds, no mater at this time though, since this circuit has failed the test light ground test, it has FAILED, let's keep moving.

---
Bentley, >Main Wiring Diagram - Cabriolet from 1991> pages 2 and 3 of 10, on page 3, right hand half page, about in the center you should see 'G40 Hall Gen'. On it's right pin marked 1/- is the brown/yellow ground wire of our current interest. brown/yellow goes up and connects to a thin horizontal line, that thin line represents a connection. That connection is shown being common to the throttle switches, pin 6 of the ECU, pin 2 of the Coolant Temp Sender, pin 4 of the Air Flow Sensor and the mysterious (circled) 94.
Test light ground test all those other component points, I suspect you won't find ground on any of them, that (circled) 94 is likely open and THE fault common to all.

Should you find any of these common components do have ground, there's a break in the harness you'll have to figure out on your own, then fix it or else kludge a work around.

Back to Page 2 of 10, all we can find out there is that (circled) 94 is >in DigiFant wiring harness>, which helps us not at all (I already ranted in post 20 of this thread).

So, back to your photo.........


Those two cut wires that connect to ground at the cylinder head side coolant flange, are either of those brown/yellow? Regardless, can you find the other ends of the cuts?
How about that twisted splice connection just below the coolant hose to the expansion tank, follow that both ways, where do those wires go?

Your turn..........






.

[Hoppy92]

I took the wiring harness out of the car a little while ago and i took all the tape and what not off al the wires and i can see that someone has tried to repair the harness becasue there is 15 splices in the harness over all.... i dont know if this was dont right and i dont know what i should do about it...?
fallowing what you said about the bently wiring diagram i found this

these are some of the spices that are through out the wiring harness.....
these are foregin and the colors of the wires dont correspond to anything becase they are just short pieces of wire put inline like a "patch". The image corresponds to the thin horizontal line in the bently. all the wires come together at one splice. the yellow wires slpices into the idle switch and the yellow wire splices into the ground wire for the Hall Generator...
I didnt understand what you ment by "that (circled) 94 is likely open and THE fault common to all."
what does this mean?

And i have no idea where the two orange/black wires go to

as for the black wire the from that splice it doesnt go anywhere but it goes into some srink wrap and then goes into the firewall. then i cant find it. stumped on that wire may go into the fuse pannel right next to a big red/black wire like the red/black wire is as big around as a pencil.

[tolusina]

Sorry, I had some brain fade, what some call a brain tart, others call a senior moment, er, (circled) 94.

(circled) 94 is what they've called in other schematics, a "Welded Connection". That cluster of components that are connected to it in common all ground through the ECU into Pin 6, through magic, mirrors, dragons and smoke until finally back out of the ECU on Pin 19 (brown/black) and grounded at (circled) 18 which Bentley says is on the engine block (but I think they really mean the side coolant flange on the head).
---
Um, that spliced up harness on your knee, next thing to do with it is feel all those splices. Hopefully those splices are stiff from soldering. Generally guys that are sharp enough to use shrink tubing are sharp enough to solder, but you won't know for sure until you check. Wouldn't hurt to remove the shrink from one or more of those splices and have a 1st person look at what the guy did. You might want to post pics of the inside of those spices if you think they might be questionable.

It does look like the car had some major wiring repairs. The car could have had a serious short, a fire, a collision or any combination.
Aside from the guy's lack of matching colored wire (and possibly questionable splices) it looks like he did decent work, trying to duplicate the original as closely as possible with materials on hand. Unfortunately, it leaves you to sort out just what color should be what other colors.

Just think how well you will know these circuits once you do sort it all out.

By the way, when I've posted Pin numbers and (circled) numbers, part of the reason is so that you could follow in Bentley, learn schematic reading, interpretation and diagnosis by doing. Have you found any of the references I've posted in your Bentley?

[Hoppy92]

well this is quite frustrating to me!!!!!! just had a huge long past typed up and went to eat something acam tried to post it when i came back and it asked me to long back in and when it did it deleted what i had typed and now i need to retype/remember what i touched upon.....
It is actually a good thing that it go deleted becaseu as i looked close at the digifant connector what i thought was pin 20 is really pin 6 on not sure of how i read it but this is what it says on the back of the connector!!

this proves alot because ppin 6 is where all the grounds go to and if it isnt there then eveything isnt getting grounded..... but the connector is broke/crackes when pin 6 would go and cracked on the other side by where pin 16 is.. i think im going to need a new connector or a new wiring harness. if feel as though this is the problem!!!!!

WERE GETTING SOME WHERE I LIKE IT

i found this inder some of the shirk wrap

its not the best looking solder job but at least there is some solder there.. it doesnt matter thought because all the wires that are spliced except for a few go to pin 6!!!

You have been such a help and yes the references to bently is a great help with getting use to fallowing th diagrams and finding things!!! i really appreciate your help.

Here is what the the connector looks like

here is one crack near oin 16
Here is pin 6... this is what im thinking the problem is and im not sure if its fixable....


also there is a violet wires that comes out of pin 2 this would be to the O2 sensor and its goes into a bigger insulator with a black wire....... the black wire is cut... isn what that means. im not sure where it goes or where its suppose to go either. any ideas?

[CajunSpike]

If it would be helpful, I have most of the wiring harness from a 91 in my garage. I cut a few wires off the ends..nothing removed close to the big plug...if you need it.

[Hoppy92]

what is pin 20 suppose to be because it has a solid brown wire going to it but in the bentley doesnt even show a pin 20 in the diagrams. its the brown wire that all the splices go into?. this isnt right!

the wire my pointer finger is on..

What am i to do?!

[tolusina]

Bottom line on top, get a replacement harness, that one is just too boogered to mess with.
I see no Pin 20 in Bentley either, no ideas what the last guy was up to there.

The violet on Pin 2 with the mysterious black is normal. The oxygen sensor signal is both very low voltage and very low current, to keep random noise off the signal wire, it must be shielded, the black wire is the shield. That wire pair might be (probably is) coaxial, just like TV cable wire. See Current Track 34, violet passes through a dashed circle, the dashed circle connects to black on Track 33 to ground.
To conform to the DIN convention, that black ground should have been brown, but hey, it's VW and it's electrical, VW techs need to be able to send their kids to college ya know.

Speaking of the DIN standards, there's a wikipedia link to the topic on the page the link in my sig points to.
---
In the two views of the connector showing wires, it looks like something burned in there, yikes.
---
I'd suggest you take Cajun up on his harness offer.
Whatever he's cut off, you've got plugs to splice on. You've also got examples of how to solder and shrink the splices, just solder better. Use an iron, not a torch.
Cajun, it's a 25 pin ECU connector, right?





.

[Hoppy92]

i can get a complete wiring harness from a junk yard near me for $120 but im not sure of that kind of shape its in.

what do you mean by DIN? or DIN standards?

and yes all through out the harness there is parts of the brown and yellow wire that would go to pin 6 this would be the ground what would cause it to burn up so bad?

Having the grounds going into pin 20 would probably screw up the ECU huh? becasue that would out me out 60 bucks becasue the ECU'S i have are probably junk because of this pin 20?...

what do you think?

[CajunSpike]

The harness came out of the 91 Etienne I junked a while back, digi 2, 5 speed.
It was removed by the previous owner before I bought the car.

I remember cutting off door switch wires, and one or two connectors to specific devices...but the main body of the harness is untouched. At worst you could compare the two to replace what I took off, from his old harness.

I'd let it go for $50, shipping included. More trying to help than get rich off his problems.

[tolusina]

DIN is something like Deutsch Industrial Norm, Euro standards kind of like SAE but different, sometimes better.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIN_72552
A few of those don't apply to VWs, most do.
---
Don't yet sweat the ECU, you just got it to spark, remember? Do the harness first.







.

[Hoppy92]

sounds like a plan!

[CajunSpike]

I've heard of messed up wiring harnesses...but from the pics he posted, that one is totally hosed.

[Hoppy92]

Hosed would mean junk? Haha

[Hoppy92]

Does taking out the airbag system effect anything as far as the car running??

[CajunSpike]

Yep. The airbag system is tied into the ignition. If you remove it without making a special connection in the wiring, it kills the ignition.

[tolusina]

Start looking at Bentley, 4 of 10, Tracks 34 through 36.
See in the Fuse/relay Panel (FRP), the gray part across the top, there's a horizontal line marked '15' at each end, that's the key on power buss.
On Track 34, 15 tees down to Fuse S17, then out the FRP at D2, right back into the FRP on R1. With key on, that actuates the DigiFant ECU Power Relay.
Another pigtail drops off to the right from R1 to the air bag control unit.
That bridge from D2 to R1 doesn't exist on air bag cars.
-
Flip back to the air bag scheme, Tracks 14 through 18, this is how air bag cars actually power the DigiFant ECU Relay.
Power comes from the ignition switch 15 on Track 16, connects to A8 FRP where it also is spliced to another wire going to Pin 18 of the air bag controller through T6/3.
Between T6/3 and air bag Pin 16 is a thin horizontal line to the right that ends in (circled) T1.
From (circled) T1 it passes through T6/4, then continues up to R1 FRP where it actuates the DigiFant ECU Power Relay.

When the air bag controller is simply unplugged (Connector T6, all six pins, 1 through 6), that connection at (circled) T1 (being 'south' of T6) is no longer in the circuit, no key on voltage can get from the ignition switch to the DigiFant ECU Power Relay, car no start.
The splice I came up with (I think a pic is posted on the previous page) effectively duplicates that (circled) T1 connection on the car harness ('north' of) side of T6.
---
To see if you need to do this, remove the DigiFant ECU Power Relay, test for key on voltage at Pin 4 of the socket, the one that corresponds to 86 on the relay.
---
In case you haven't found this yet, you need to print at least the pin out diagram of the back of the FRP from Kammy's site,
http://www.cabby-info.com/Files/ElectricalSystem.pdf

[Hoppy92]

the small numbers at the bottom of the page are the tracks? correct? and what ive done with the paper would represent the tracks themselves???

i see where S17 comes out of the FRP at D2 and it goes right back into R1. Where would D2 and R1 correspond to the car?

the pigtail that drops off to the airbag controll unit and R1 would be this here??


im not seeing the (circled) T1 im seeing a (circled) A2... am i looking at the correct diagram?

and i did the splice from my previous thread that you or someone else posted you can see it in the picture above. this wouldnt be a final splice just a temp to see if it would fix a previous problem. does this splice mean i can take out the air bag system with no issues with the ECU being affected?



I really appreciate all the help you have provided!!!! sorry that im a little slow to comprehending whats being throw at me but im slowly cathching on. THANKS AGAIN!!!!!!

[Hoppy92]

Having made the splice, does this mean i dont need that other side of the connector because thats the side that goes to the air bag controll unit. I have just about all of it out aready.... this is why im asking these questions becasue i dont want to dig myself a deeper hole then i am already in hahaha

[CajunSpike]

Once splice is made, can separate the connectors, car will still start/run.

harness pics as requested.

http://cajun.dyndns.org:81/images/vw/harness1.jpg
http://cajun.dyndns.org:81/images/vw/harness2.jpg
http://cajun.dyndns.org:81/images/vw/harness3.jpg

[Hoppy92]

This harness looks like it has so much more to it then mine does. Does this harness go throught the whole car like to the FPR and in the engine bay?

[CajunSpike]

I do feel its pretty complete. Some of the relays are still plugged into their sockets. Many of the cables do have oil crap on them..so they had to be near the motor area to get that.

[briano1234]

Pin 20 is brown on a California Digifant 1 car. It comes from/goes to the injector for cyl 1.

It is not unusual for a OEM to re-use a connector between models and leave pins out, or unconnected. Since it was for a Dgi1 I woudn't worry too much about it.

It is not on the Digifant II.

[Hoppy92]

the car is digifant II and in th ebently there is nothing going to pin 20 on the digifant connector but on mine there is and this is wrong. the wire going to pin 20 should be going to pin but the pin 6 hole is broke/burnt so i need a wiring harness.

secondly, while working on taking out the air bag system i found this here. its a wire coming out of the ignition switch.

i THink it goes to this connector on the back of the FRP?? (highlighted in yellow) would this be correct.


i have no idea why it has a connector like this, i dont know why it has been cut either. do you think this has something to do with the spark issue??

[tolusina]

.......
i see where S17 comes out of the FRP at D2 and it goes right back into R1. Where would D2 and R1 correspond to the car?...

The entire gray section on the top of the schematics IS the FRP, schematically.
Here's a link to a hand annotated (looks like done with a mouse) FRP pic........
http://reflectionsandshadows.com/cabby/ensone-panel.jpg
I gotta love the kid that did this and the effort that went into it, but there's a much better one in the pdf at cabby-info that I linked above and again here.....
http://www.cabby-info.com/Files/ElectricalSystem.pdf

the small numbers at the bottom of the page are the tracks? correct? and what ive done with the paper would represent the tracks themselves???..

The numbers along the bottom of the schematics are the "current tracks". They are like coordinates on a map, like where Adams Avenue runs from H14 to K17.

(circled) number schematic references are found listed in the schematic's index at the beginning of each schematic.

When you find a wire suddenly ends in a [boxed] number, note the number in the box and the track
it is on. Go to the track number found in the [box] find another [box] with the track number you just came from, that's the continuation of the circuit you were just looking at.
Grasp this concept, it's one of the keys to using these schemes.

An example; on the air bag scheme ('cause it's open right now) far left, Track 1, up from the bottom is a brown wire that ends in a [boxed] 5. Go to Track 5, find [boxed] 1, it's a brown wire to the diagnostic connector. The (circled) 30 on the bottom of Track 1 refers back to the legend where we find it is "beside fuse/relay panel". It is brown and (schematically) connects to the bottom, we know it is ground.

.......
i see where S17 comes out of the FRP at D2 and it goes right back into R1. Where would D2 and R1 correspond to the car?.....
.....and i did the splice from my previous thread that you or someone else posted you can see it in the picture above. this wouldnt be a final splice just a temp to see if it would fix a previous problem. does this splice mean i can take out the air bag system with no issues with the ECU being affected?...

Best I could tell when I yanked my air bag system, found the car wouldn't start without the air bag controller harness plugged in and I came up with 'the splice', the D2 to R1 bridge doesn't exist.
If the D2 to R1 bridge was there, the cars would start whether the air bag controller harness was connected or not.
I already covered the bottom line on this topic above...

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To see if you need to do this, remove the DigiFant ECU Power Relay, test for key on voltage at Pin 4 of the socket, the one that corresponds to 86 on the relay.
---

...im not seeing the (circled) T1 im seeing a (circled) A2... am i looking at the correct diagram?.....

(circled) T1 is on the air bag scheme, Track 18 back to Track 14.
I'm not seeing the (circled) A2 you've found, where did you find it?
---
I can't make heads or tails of what is actually going on with fuse S17.
Page 4 of 10 shows it powers the DigiFant ECU Power Relay, but from the air bag scheme we know that's not true.
Kammy's pages show it is power for the Power Windows, Bentley Power Window schemes show that the windows are powered by S37.
I no longer have a car to look at and (try) to sort out S17.

[Hoppy92]

Im thinking that we are looking at a different schematic....... Im on page 3 of 10, Maine wiring diagram, Cabriolet from 1991.... track 1 in my bentley is a blue wire that comes off the alternator that goes up to T1a then goes in to the FRP.... not what you explained...

Im seeing the (circled)A2 on track 11. track 11 going from bottom to top, track 11 if fallowed up to 72 in a box, then goes up to the (circled)A2 with a thin horizontal line coming from the same (circled)A2 off to the right to tracks 12 and 14. All the wires are black.

This is why i think we are looking at different diagrams.... Im lost with what you have said with the diagrams.

i made the splice for the air bag and have EVERYTHING for the air bag system out of the car as of last night made the splice neater!

[Hoppy92]

That's the splice to the air bag bypass. More realistic splice.

Here's the (circled)A2 I'm looking at.

This is the schematic I'm looking at for the airbag system is this correct?

[tolusina]

I see where I lost you, I think.
The (circled) T1 and the Track 1 I used in the example, neither are on the main schematic. One page past 10 of 10 starts the add on diagrams, the first is for the air bag system, that's the one I was referencing.
---
I now see on the schematic the (circled) A2 you are talking about, I see it by your description, which also means you are catching the hang of scheme reading.
I guess you think you posted a pic of that scheme, oops, it's missing in action......

[Hoppy92]

Whoops I forgot to paste the image links haha

[tolusina]

Whoops I forgot to paste the image links haha

That's what I'm saying, I found that in Bentley by your description. Since your description worked, it tells me you are getting the hang of scheme reading.
--
Did you find the air bag scheme one page past 10 of 10?