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    Thread: MotorTrend: Mustang V6 vs. Subaru BRZ

    1. 05-04-2012 12:31 AM #1

    2. Get Off My Lawn!!! vwlarry's Avatar
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      05-04-2012 12:50 AM #2
      If I were in the market for such a thing, I would HAVE to have a BRZ. It's the only new car that makes me drool. The spirit of my late, beloved Sciroccos lives in these cars.
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    3. Member elementpb's Avatar
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      05-04-2012 12:51 AM #3
      Turbo that Suby and then we will talk.

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      05-04-2012 12:52 AM #4
      They both look really nice, I really like that green colour on the mustang, and I hate all types of green on cars.

      Anyway, I'm not surprised, BRZ is all about the driver. Can't wait to see these on the streets.

    5. 05-04-2012 01:04 AM #5
      I'd have the Subaru, I already have a Mustang .
      Bowtie wearing, tattooed, Mustang driver

      Quote Originally Posted by Fritz27 View Post
      I was more annoyed with the implication of being a Browns fan.

    6. Member watsontb's Avatar
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      05-04-2012 01:06 AM #6
      Quote Originally Posted by TetsuoShima View Post
      They both look really nice, I really like that green colour on the mustang, and I hate all types of green on cars.

      Anyway, I'm not surprised, BRZ is all about the driver. Can't wait to see these on the streets.
      When they first anounced the green I was "meh, give me Bullitt Green"


      and now that I see it in video I cant look away.

    7. Member XiaoNio's Avatar
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      05-04-2012 01:11 AM #7
      The lap times were surprisingly similar considering the horsepower and rubber disparity. Pirelli P Zeros in 255 should offer some pretty ludicrous grip.

    8. Member mike02467's Avatar
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      05-04-2012 01:25 AM #8
      I want a BR-Z so bad right now... all these videos are just making it worse

      I find it interesting he compares the engine to a "Acura VTEC" opposed to just saying Honda.

      I've read elsewhere that the engine is nowhere near as rev-happy as Honda's screamers though, which kind of puts me off. Speaking of Honda... Where oh where is their answer? I guess we'll just have to wait and see?

    9. 05-04-2012 01:37 AM #9
      Am I crazy or at .18 seconds does it say the BRZ is turbocharged

      EDIT: Duh should've kept watching

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      05-04-2012 03:02 AM #10
      At the end of the day most people judge a car's performance at the red light and on the highway passing ol' grandma hoggin on the left lane.

    11. Member eunos94's Avatar
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      05-04-2012 03:16 AM #11
      The BRZ really rubs salt into my wounds and makes it even more difficult to accept that my legs will never function properly again.
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    12. Member mike02467's Avatar
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      05-04-2012 04:02 AM #12
      Quote Originally Posted by eunos94 View Post
      The BRZ really rubs salt into my wounds and makes it even more difficult to accept that my legs will never function properly again.
      Are you a paraplegic? There's ways to drive without legs, though I don't know how sporty a hand throttle and brake lever can be

    13. Member velocidub's Avatar
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      05-04-2012 05:41 AM #13
      There are sooooooooooo many great cars out there today. Really enjoyed that comparison.

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      05-04-2012 07:23 AM #14
      Good video, I really like both cars... that green on the mustang looks surprisingly good.
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    15. Member eunos94's Avatar
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      05-04-2012 07:27 AM #15
      Quote Originally Posted by mike02467 View Post
      Are you a paraplegic? There's ways to drive without legs, though I don't know how sporty a hand throttle and brake lever can be
      Where would you put the wheelchair?
      How much fun would an automatic really be in a true sports coupe?

      To answer your question. No I'm not. I just have severe balance and strength issues due to nerve damage from breaking L3/L4 twice.
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      05-04-2012 08:25 AM #16
      Is this an all new flat four, or a carry over from the Subie line?

      What type of reliability have the Subie flat fours had on launch in the past?
      Quote Originally Posted by teklord69 View Post
      Scenario: Uphill on two lane hwy. You need to pass and overtake a slower vehicle. That 151 torque won't let you. You will hit an oncoming car the opposite side if you do.

    17. Member Slipstream's Avatar
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      05-04-2012 08:52 AM #17
      Quote Originally Posted by cougar View Post
      I'd have the Subaru, I already have a Mustang .
      No, you have a REAL Mustang.

      The hot lap results are interesting... Despite flopping around all over the track, the Mustang was still quicker.
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    18. 05-04-2012 08:59 AM #18
      This is becoming a great time to be an car nut.
      I wonder if instead of turboing the flat four will trd or somebody come up with a bolt-on supercharger? anybody know if the 86/brz uses regular or premium fuel?

    19. Member Slipstream's Avatar
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      05-04-2012 09:06 AM #19
      Quote Originally Posted by dubscientist View Post
      This is becoming a great time to be an car nut.
      I wonder if instead of turboing the flat four will trd or somebody come up with a bolt-on supercharger? anybody know if the 86/brz uses regular or premium fuel?
      TRD does tend to favor superchargers for their bolt-on kits, so I wouldn't be surprised.

      It sounds like this engine could make great use of a low to mid-range torque bump from a blower (vs. a turbo).
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    20. Senior Member 6cylVWguy's Avatar
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      05-04-2012 09:07 AM #20
      Pretty decent video and I enjoyed watching Randy Pobst drive both cars on the track. Hard for me to really say which one I'd rather have without really driving them. I like the grunt of the mustang and chassis finesse of the BRZ. If toyota/subaru gave us something maybe just a bit more like a 968, I'd be a bigger fan. And by 968, I mean a large 4-cyl motor so that it not only had a bit more power, but also more torque. Of course, a turbo could also address those issues.

      A drivers car to me is something that is fun not only in the turns, but also in a straight line and the BRZ just doesn't seem like it would be all that fun if you weren't going at least 9/10's, at or close to redline, on a canyon road.

      In the end, I'm not really a huge fan of either car, but I can see the advantages of both cars.

    21. 05-04-2012 09:11 AM #21
      Quote Originally Posted by Slipstream View Post
      No, you have a REAL Mustang.
      Well I *WAS* thinking that, but...
      Bowtie wearing, tattooed, Mustang driver

      Quote Originally Posted by Fritz27 View Post
      I was more annoyed with the implication of being a Browns fan.

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      05-04-2012 09:19 AM #22
      Quote Originally Posted by XiaoNio View Post
      The lap times were surprisingly similar considering the horsepower and rubber disparity. Pirelli P Zeros in 255 should offer some pretty ludicrous grip.
      Streets of Willow is a short track with SHORT straights - none more than 1000 feet. 1.4 seconds is also a pretty sizable gap for an under 2 minute lap.

      I think, if we can imagine such a thing, that the "grip to weight" of these two cars is pretty similar. The "Prius tires" are unfairly mocked, they're high-treadwear/low resistance, but they're also summer tires with stiff sidewalls and an ability to handle a lot of heat without getting greasy. Mr. Tada, the engineer, talks really highly of them.

      When C&D gets the FR-S/BRZ onto VIR for a "Lightning Lap", the results should be really interesting. VIR in the Grand configuration they use has a couple 3000-foot straightaways and more elevation change than Streets of Willow, so it rewards power-to-weight ratios more heavily. In fact, C&D plotted their lap times against P:W and it's almost linear. But it'll be interesting to see if this is a car that can transcend moderate power output (like the RX-8 R3 or Golf R). If it were to fall right on the trend line, this car should run a 3:21 or so; but I bet it'll be quicker.
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    23. Senior Member Aonarch's Avatar
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      05-04-2012 09:26 AM #23
      I've owned that Mustang and boy was it sloppy just as the driver was complaining about.

      It takes a pro driver to hit 1:29, where as an amateur could have hit 1:30 in the BRZ.
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      05-04-2012 09:28 AM #24
      Quote Originally Posted by AKADriver View Post
      Streets of Willow is a short track with SHORT straights - none more than 1000 feet. 1.4 seconds is also a pretty sizable gap for an under 2 minute lap.

      I think, if we can imagine such a thing, that the "grip to weight" of these two cars is pretty similar. The "Prius tires" are unfairly mocked, they're high-treadwear/low resistance, but they're also summer tires with stiff sidewalls and an ability to handle a lot of heat without getting greasy. Mr. Tada, the engineer, talks really highly of them.

      When C&D gets the FR-S/BRZ onto VIR for a "Lightning Lap", the results should be really interesting. VIR in the Grand configuration they use has a couple 3000-foot straightaways and more elevation change than Streets of Willow, so it rewards power-to-weight ratios more heavily. In fact, C&D plotted their lap times against P:W and it's almost linear. But it'll be interesting to see if this is a car that can transcend moderate power output (like the RX-8 R3 or Golf R). If it were to fall right on the trend line, this car should run a 3:21 or so; but I bet it'll be quicker.
      Don't forget the Mustang is getting a power bump from 305 to 323 this year, that'll only make the gap bigger!

      I'm just glad the base mustang is no longer a penalty box. I had a V6 Camaro (99) as my first car, and while it wasn't the be all end all, the engine was good enough (3.8 series 2) to get it into the high 14's, at a time while the V6 mustang was a 16 second car, and the V8 stang in 98 was a 15 second car as well. The times are a changing.


      I view the BRZ as a hardtop version of the solstice, sky, miata. Not a Camaro competitor. We'll see. Most people put up with power shortcomings in a convertible, but not in a coupe (see RX8-although there were other issues). I think its a great shape and does everything right, but 200 hp for 27k, just not enough. Needs at least 250 in the base, and 300+ in the upgraded model. I know I'm missing the point, but I want more than that.
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    25. 05-04-2012 09:48 AM #25
      Quote Originally Posted by Slipstream View Post
      TRD does tend to favor superchargers for their bolt-on kits, so I wouldn't be surprised.

      It sounds like this engine could make great use of a low to mid-range torque bump from a blower (vs. a turbo).
      exactly. I really like both cars in this test. It seems like you could fix any of the shortcomings of either car with little aftermarket support.

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      05-04-2012 09:49 AM #26
      RX-8s actually sold okay the first couple years, in the context of a sports coupe. The biggest failure of that car was that you had that first gas price spike into the $3 range in mid-2005. On top of a $30,000 car it was hard to bear. This car ought to perform just about as well, use literally half the fuel, and costs about 20% less.

      No, it's not a Camaro competitor, and thank goodness for that. It's a breath of fresh air after every new promise of a sporty RWD coupe turned into a 3500lb six-cylinder touring car. The 350Z was originally supposed to be a neo-240Z, and then they stretched it to fit onto the FM platform. The BMW 1-series was originally promised to be a neo-2002, a four cylinder only small car, and then it ended up being the size of an E46 3-series. The Genesis Coupe was supposed to be a Veloster-sized Tiburon replacement originally. Mazda has teased Miata coupes since the NA and they've all been vaporware, then they give us the PRHT which is 80lb heavier than the soft top and honestly not much more practical.
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      05-04-2012 10:04 AM #27
      Quote Originally Posted by Aonarch View Post
      I've owned that Mustang and boy was it sloppy just as the driver was complaining about.

      It takes a pro driver to hit 1:29, where as an amateur could have hit 1:30 in the BRZ.
      So why didn't this guy get a better time than 1:30 in the BRZ?

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      05-04-2012 10:08 AM #28
      Quote Originally Posted by BeaArthur View Post
      So why didn't this guy get a better time than 1:30 in the BRZ?
      You took that too literally.

      What I am saying is the BRZ is a drivers car, like he said you simply keep you foot down and go. Simple no quirks. Easy to drive, superb beginners car just like the Miata or a RX8.

      The Mustang takes a lot of focus, skill, and precision to get around a tight track like that. Sawing the steering, hitting a bump mid-turn, throttle manipulation, etc. Takes a lot to get it around that track, but when done correctly it is a quick car.
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      05-04-2012 10:09 AM #29
      Quote Originally Posted by P-Body View Post
      Is this an all new flat four, or a carry over from the Subie line?

      What type of reliability have the Subie flat fours had on launch in the past?
      All new and its going to be a beast once the tuners get their hands on it. It is a high compression direct injection with stadard EFI aux injectors as well. Takes what VW did with DI but just makes it near perfection IMO of course.

      quick clip on it


      Its kind of a carry over shortblock with piston upgrades and a different head and fueling system. I think its going to beautiful.

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      05-04-2012 10:24 AM #30
      I love the look of the BRZ. It sounds like a sharp handler that is also very forgiving. It's great when you can keep your foot down like on a track, but I think the lack of mid-range / torque might be a bummer on the street, where you can't.

      I do wonder if these will sell as fast as everyone thinks they will. Or if people will wait for more power, or take their $26k elsewhere.

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      05-04-2012 10:42 AM #31
      I remember being told that the BRZ would own Mustang GT's around a track. Got to love fanboys

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      05-04-2012 10:50 AM #32
      Quote Originally Posted by fknlo View Post
      I remember being told that the BRZ would own Mustang GT's around a track. Got to love fanboys
      People are naive about how street cars really perform on a race track. This isn't new. I'm a total fanboy but I'd never, ever claim that this car is going to whup on something with a significantly better P:W and 255/40R19 Pirelli PZeros.

      Especially when I've personally been in the navigator seat while a 2011 GT with the same suspension and tires was passing up C5 Z06s on the track.
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      05-04-2012 11:09 AM #33
      This is exactly as I predicted. I posted before that I was willing to bet the Mustang with performance package would turn in better or very close times vs the BRZ. Some people thought it was a crazy statement to make. I like the green on that mustang!

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      05-04-2012 11:20 AM #34
      Quote Originally Posted by Noside View Post
      All new and its going to be a beast once the tuners get their hands on it. It is a high compression direct injection with stadard EFI aux injectors as well. Takes what VW did with DI but just makes it near perfection IMO of course.

      quick clip on it


      Its kind of a carry over shortblock with piston upgrades and a different head and fueling system. I think its going to beautiful.
      So direct injection coupled with port injection avoids the carbon issue?
      Quote Originally Posted by rich! View Post
      i'd lock this thread but i have no clue how...

    35. Senior Member 6cylVWguy's Avatar
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      05-04-2012 11:23 AM #35
      Quote Originally Posted by spongebob_squarepants View Post
      I do wonder if these will sell as fast as everyone thinks they will. Or if people will wait for more power, or take their $26k elsewhere.
      Outside of the people who have been chomping at the bit to own one of these, I doubt this car will sell as well as some are predicting around here. There are simply so many performance-oriented choices that one can go with in the $25k range these days. There really is an affordable performance car for pretty much everyone. I don't think the BRZ/FRS will sell in numbers even close to what the more popular ~$25k performance coupes sell at.

      I can see Scion/Subaru keeping a very tight leash on the number of cars that they give dealers, which might give the impression that they are hard to get ahold of (I mean once the initial hype has fied down and everyone who REALLY wants one has purchased them) but I doubt the actual number of cars sold will be anything all that impressive.
      Last edited by 6cylVWguy; 05-04-2012 at 11:28 AM.

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