DSG in Neutral at red lights?

[worth_fixing]

Hey guys,

I posted this in the DSG-specific thread, but from past experience, it's kinda very slow for a response so I wanted to try here.

I've had my DSG GTI for about 3 1/2 weeks now. I've read (wikipedia) that you shouldn't leave it in D while waiting at a red lights, or any time with a significant wait time, for it hold the clutches on a "bite point" and heats up the trans fluid. Is this true? Do you guys do this?

Here's the source:

N position of the floor-mounted shift lever means that the transmission is in "neutral". Similar to P above, both clutch packs and all gear-sets are fully disengaged, however the parking lock is disengaged. This position should be used when the motor vehicle is stationary for a period of time, such as at red traffic lights, or waiting in a queue of stationary traffic. The DSG should not be held in any of the active gear modes while stationary using the footbrake for other than brief periods — due to the clutches being held on the bite point, as this can overheat the clutches and transmission fluid.

[dmorrow]

126k miles on mine and never heard of this. It would be a really bad design that would need to have an automatic shifted into neutral at red lights to prevent damage. I don't believe this is correct and won't be changing anything because of the post.

[ATL_Av8r]

Just remember....people like golfstrom and Pete can edit wikipedia "articles"

[Aonarch]

I've never heard of that before, and that would be crazy for VW to have done.

[Tim@VMG]

Just remember....people like golfstrom and Pete can edit wikipedia "articles"

This.

I owned a DSG GTI for nearly 5 years. I put just over 60,000 miles on it.

I almost never put it in neutral at red lights or anywhere else while driving.

My transmission didn't even asplode. Not once. Nor did it ever overheat.



If this was actually an issue, we'd have heard about it, and VW would have redesigned the thing. No automaker is going to sell a transmission that overheats itself just from sitting in traffic, or at least not for long.

-Tim

[Dr. Woo]

That's just silly.

Never did that in the R, and while I didn't have quite as many miles on it as some folks in here had on theirs, I went 48,000 miles without any transmission issues.

[Air-over-water]

It is an automatic, why take it out of drive unless you are reversing or parking?

[08 MKV GTI]

The car is in neutral when you come to a stop. If you let go of the brake on an incline you will roll back before you go forward. If you do the roll back a bit and go forward then stop immediately, that is when the transmission is lightly biting the clutch and you can't roll back any more. If you are worried about it, all you need to do is put the transmission into neutral then immediately back to drive.

[Jrod511]

It is an automatic, why take it out of drive unless you are reversing or parking?

Well, it's an automated manual. It uses clutches instead of a torque converter. The torque converter is what allows the automatic to stay in drive at a stop light. In this case the OP is asking about wear to the clutches; a perfectly valid question.

[Smooremin]

The car is in neutral when you are at a light while you hold the break. Both clutches are open when you have your foot on the brake, hence when you left off there is a slight delay until you start rolling. At least this is the way that I understand it.

[freedomgli]

Certain DSG equipped cars have suffered such high failure rates that some owners have become paranoid about expensive repairs so they do anything they can think of in an attempt to reduce wear and tear on the transmission. But much like motor oil change interval discussions, there is only limited anecdotal evidence that such antics do anything one way or the other.

[JettaGT8V80]

Certain DSG equipped cars have suffered such high failure rates that some owners have become paranoid about expensive repairs so they do anything they can think of in an attempt to reduce wear and tear on the transmission. But much like motor oil change interval discussions, there is only limited anecdotal evidence that such antics do anything one way or the other.

not true very early dog cars had a high failure rate because the trans mapping was too harsh and it would blow clutch packs most if not all the problems come from not changing the fluid every 40k

i have 50k on mine and its fine changed the fluid at 40k and i have never put it in neutral

[freedomgli]

not true

Tell that to the scores of people who have had multiple mechatronic units replaced. One could argue that the total failure rate over all model years and all variations of the DSG transmission is still acceptable for a complex, mass-produced assembly but given all the forum chatter on DSG failures and the astronomical repair costs (if forced to pay out of pocket) you can't say the failure rate is insignificant.

[SSLByron]

The way I've had it explained to me, you shouldn't just "hang" on a slight incline like you can with a slushbox, because that can cause the transmission to heat up. Think of holding a manual car on an incline by feathering the clutch. Same thing.

But when you're on the brakes? The transmission knows what it's doing.

[Daskoupe]

wow some peoples dsg ideas are crazy.Change the fluid every once in awhile and if your super anal do basic settings on the clutches at like 60k

[WOB-JDR]

42,000 miles/almost four years on my DSG. Had the mechatronic unit replaced once already and haven't had any problems since. Personally, I do put it in neutral at stoplights, not because I think OMGSHE'SGONNABLOWAGAIN but rather because I prefer how the car feels stopped in N compared to stopped in D.

There's a weird, yet small feeling of anticipation/fighting the brakes/slightly higher revs while in D that completely goes away in neutral. The car just feels more settled. Personal preference, really.

[kwik!gti]

Its an automatic. Just drive it like one.

[drkreign]

wow some peoples dsg ideas are crazy.Change the fluid every once in awhile and if your super anal do basic settings on the clutches at like 60k

This

Biggest issue WAS (note the word) the mech units, VW has an open campaign for the units, if your DSG isn't acting right and you didn't get it taken in under the 100K they gave you, then that's owners fault not VW's.

There have been a few issues with the spacing on the clutch baskets but that was very few and far between, and the flywheel chatter is only had around 100k, and the ones I've seen do it were on cars that were NOT maintained every 40k service so AGAIN owner issue.

In other words, do the normal (albeit expensive) services early on or pay the guaranteed expensive replacement of the transmission/components.

[dunhamjr]

had an 08 gti w/dsg for 3.5 years. never heard of this, either. never had any issues leaving it in drive.

[fs454]

Funny, that's like an unstoppable habit of mine driving my DSG-equipped A3. I don't think more than 1,000 of the 94,000 miles on my car were driven in any sort of Auto mode, either. The car has seen strictly manual, often to neutral at stops. The transmission feels like a manual in that regard, that it's natural to take it out of gear when sitting like that.


For me at least. I'm probably crazy. But I love DSG and drive it hard. About to do my second fluid change at around 100k.

There's a weird, yet small feeling of anticipation/fighting the brakes/slightly higher revs while in D that completely goes away in neutral. The car just feels more settled. Personal preference, really.

This is exactly what I feel, too. It just feels much more natural this way to not feel the car edging on the clutches trying to push you forward. Not doing so would pretty much be like stopping at a light in a manual car, lightly braking while stopped and then trying to overcome this force constantly by letting off the clutch a bit. It's less extreme than this but still annoying.

[MrRoboto]

It's an issue on the R8 with the robotized manual (R-Tronic). If you don't shift it into neutral at a stoplight, it will do it for you after 20 seconds I believe. Otherwise, while the car is stopped, the clutch is in a partially engaged mode, and can burn out the clutch quite easily.

It is really annoying, my friend's got a V10 vert, and he's quite adept now at putting the transmission into neutral when he comes to a stop. But it shouldn't have to be that way.

[fs454]

It's an issue on the R8 with the robotized manual (R-Tronic). If you don't shift it into neutral at a stoplight, it will do it for you after 20 seconds I believe. Otherwise, while the car is stopped, the clutch is in a partially engaged mode, and can burn out the clutch quite easily.

It is really annoying, my friend's got a V10 vert, and he's quite adept now at putting the transmission into neutral when he comes to a stop. But it shouldn't have to be that way.

Why do people buy this transmission in a supercar? The fact that it isn't even DSG or twin-clutch is awful.

[Tim@VMG]

It's an issue on the R8 with the robotized manual (R-Tronic). If you don't shift it into neutral at a stoplight, it will do it for you after 20 seconds I believe. Otherwise, while the car is stopped, the clutch is in a partially engaged mode, and can burn out the clutch quite easily.

It is really annoying, my friend's got a V10 vert, and he's quite adept now at putting the transmission into neutral when he comes to a stop. But it shouldn't have to be that way.

The R-Tronic / E-gear transmission in the R8 is a totally different transmission than the DSG, though, so that doesn't really have any bearing on the discussion here about whether or not leaving the DSG in gear at a stoplight will somehow overheat or ruin the transmission.

-Tim

[MCTB]

Tell that to the scores of people who have had multiple mechatronic units replaced. One could argue that the total failure rate over all model years and all variations of the DSG transmission is still acceptable for a complex, mass-produced assembly but given all the forum chatter on DSG failures and the astronomical repair costs (if forced to pay out of pocket) you can't say the failure rate is insignificant.

This is the reason why I will not own one. I would love to find an 09 or 10 Passat wagon for the updated dash/ binnacle but they are DSG and I dont want that. DSG is cool and all but I hate the driving dynamics of them (and the failures). My buddies surges and sometimes seems to stall on his GTI and my other friends R32 wasnt that much better.

I dont know. In a manual car, I never sit with my foot on the clutch at a stop light. I dont know if I would do it in a DSG car either.

[AndyTR32]

The car is in neutral when you are at a light while you hold the break. Both clutches are open when you have your foot on the brake, hence when you left off there is a slight delay until you start rolling. At least this is the way that I understand it.

This makes sense to me and is my impression after renting a DSG equipped EOS a few weeks ago. I'm assuming that the neutral shift is supervised by speed to ensure the car stays in gear under heavy braking?

[SSLByron]

Why do people buy this transmission in a supercar? The fact that it isn't even DSG or twin-clutch is awful.

The R-Tronic in the R8 works just fine. I've driven the V10 car. It's really not a big deal.

[Shomegrown]

It's an issue on the R8 with the robotized manual (R-Tronic). If you don't shift it into neutral at a stoplight, it will do it for you after 20 seconds I believe. Otherwise, while the car is stopped, the clutch is in a partially engaged mode, and can burn out the clutch quite easily.

It is really annoying, my friend's got a V10 vert, and he's quite adept now at putting the transmission into neutral when he comes to a stop. But it shouldn't have to be that way.

If you keep your foot on the brake, it won't go into neutral. If your foot is off the brake and you're not rolling anywhere, it will put you into neutral after a short time.

[scoTT la rock]

Strange- I do feel/hear a slightly louder "chattering" when stopped at a light in D. I put it in neutral ad it goes away. I don't think anything is wrong per-se but it does feel weird. Maybe I should change the fluids and see what happens (I'm at 89000)

[worth_fixing]

Ah ok, well that clears thing up. I found it weird too how they would design an automatic for Joe/Jane Anybody and have this kind of important protocol for long-duration immobility, ie every bloody traffic light. Just wanted to make sure, as I no longer have any warranty on the thing. I would hate for something to blow and cost me $6000.

[Air-over-water]

my DSG-equipped A3. I don't think more than 1,000 of the 94,000 miles on my car were driven in any sort of Auto mode, either. The car has seen strictly manual,

Wait, you can make the DSG strictly manual?

[Geesixty]

There is definitely a load on the engine when I am stopped in 'D' with my foot on the brake in my DSG-equipped TDI. If I kick it into 'N' while stopped with my foot on the brake, the engine note picks up and no more load.

With that said, I agree that the clutch engages once I let off the brake, however I am convinced there is something going on while stopped. Perhaps the clutch is "dragging" so that when it does fully engage, it does not lurch off the line as if you just dumped the clutch on a manual.

[Geesixty]

Wait, you can make the DSG strictly manual?

Well, with the paddles, yes. Basicially if you drop it to manual mode, the auto shift points adjusted to hitting the rev limiter on the high-end, and almost stalling on the low end. Once the car auto shifts, it basically boots you from manual mode unless you re-engage. At least that's how it works on mine.

[RacingManiac]

Funny, that's like an unstoppable habit of mine driving my DSG-equipped A3. I don't think more than 1,000 of the 94,000 miles on my car were driven in any sort of Auto mode, either. The car has seen strictly manual, often to neutral at stops. The transmission feels like a manual in that regard, that it's natural to take it out of gear when sitting like that.

Seems kinda strange to put it in neutral especially from M...where you are on a seperate gate...

When I drive spiritly I put it in M, when I am bored I put it in M. Commuting most of the time I just the D. When I autocross I put it in S....

[Air-over-water]

Well, with the paddles, yes. Basicially if you drop it to manual mode, the auto shift points adjusted to hitting the rev limiter on the high-end, and almost stalling on the low end. Once the car auto shifts, it basically boots you from manual mode unless you re-engage. At least that's how it works on mine.

So, no. Not strictly manual.
It is still, and always will be, an AUTOmated manual.
The car still has control over your shifting.

[kwik!gti]

So, no. Not strictly manual.
It is still, and always will be, an AUTOmated manual.
The car still has control over your shifting.

No such thing as an "automated manual"

You have 2 choices:

Choice #1: 3 pedals. I.E. Manual
Choice #2: 2 pedals. I.E. Automatic