BMW/Audi falling behind with their sports cars?

[Chipped B6]

With GM and Ford coming out with 550/650hp cars for cheaper.. those ARE now being cross shopped with the M3/Audi/MB brand because of the price-to-fun ratio.. Remember the '12 Mustang GT and the E92 M3?

The new RS car is going to have the RS5 motor.. and the new M3 has the turbo'd 6 coming for it.
While it may handle better than the US variants, most people don't track their cars and love ACCELERATION it seems. If you want a track rat, you get an Elise..
The new camaro/mustang's are already on par with these european sports car on the track.. besides the obvious interior/exterior.. Why wouldn't anyone want one since they're so much cheaper?

When the M3 with the turbo hits 550hp, the ZL1/GT500 will be at 700whp...

[RacerrRex]

"In the end, its still a Ford" -Some BMW owner at my job a few months back, when talking about the GT500

[C4 A6]

What sports cars? The only sports car between any of the companies you've mentioned is the BMW Z-series.

[Avicenna]

Again with the horsepower argument? By this logic, Lotus is waaay behind.

[Chipped B6]

Well excuse me for naming the M3, a SPORTS car.
The mean is VERY subjective.

An M3 has utility, so that mean it's a utility vehicle too?

[sullie]

I think BMW and Audi have historically wandered in and out of the sports car segment. Seems like SUV's are still the best money makers for both companies.

What sports cars? The only sports car between any of the companies you've mentioned is the BMW Z-series.

Really? Corvette and R8 don't count as sports cars?

[Live-Wire]

It's everything tho... BMW's tend to be more sublime, they are a wonderful, complete package. That's what you pay for. Yes, you can buy more, cheap horsepower... but what are you missing?

-Interior
-Suspension finesse
-Steering finesse (maybe not on a BMW anymore?...)
-Features, and how nicely those features are implemented

And of course, yes... you pay for the badge. BMW doesn't want everyone to buy one... they want to have that cachet, that allure, that aspirational quality.

My next point is... when is enough, enough.

500hp, 600, 700? Come on.... America has the lowest speed limits in the world, right up there with Canada. We are a joke in terms of the power of our cars, and how fast the man lets us drive them. Do ya really need a 600hp Camaro? Probably not! Sure, its fun... but in a car where the outrageous/flamboyant styling matches the outrageous power... it's a cop magnet.

BMW's, Audi's, Porsche's etc... they cater to a different taste. It's like saying... oh well you can buy this home distilled malt liquor, you will get drunk way faster because it's 120 proof, and it only costs 5 bucks a gallon... Why the hell would you spend $40 on a 60oz bottle of quality spirits... or $50 on a fine bottle of vintage wine... I'm not trying to imply Chevy/Ford are cheap malt liquor... I'm trying to get to the point of different stroked to different folks... Yes, there is powerful and cheap, it's intoxicating. There is also powerful, yet refined - it's expensive tho. Same end result, maybe a little less fast - but still damn quick.

[ToucheTurtle]

There's nothing new about the Germans making an inferior product at an inflated price they've been doing it since the mid 90s.

[2.0T_Convert]

Germans will very likely always still have that "soul" and strokable dash factor. Plus a Ford badge just isn't as fancy as 4 rings.

People willing to pay extra for that will always choose the Audi or BMW. People unwilling very likely already don't own an Audi or BMW.

[Chipped B6]

Well that's the argument.. with the American cars getting ever so close with their chassis feel (subjective thought though), interiors featuring more leather/alcantara than before.. it's not far behind.

[PsyberVW]

With GM and Ford coming out with 550/650hp cars for cheaper.. those ARE now being cross shopped with the M3/Audi/MB brand because of the price-to-fun ratio.. Remember the '12 Mustang GT and the E92 M3?

The new RS car is going to have the RS5 motor.. and the new M3 has the turbo'd 6 coming for it.
While it may handle better than the US variants, most people don't track their cars and love ACCELERATION it seems. If you want a track rat, you get an Elise..
The new camaro/mustang's are already on par with these european sports car on the track.. besides the obvious interior/exterior.. Why wouldn't anyone want one since they're so much cheaper?

When the M3 with the turbo hits 550hp, the ZL1/GT500 will be at 700whp...

I think you don't "Get" sportscars, at all.

You seem to be looking for something to drag race with, and that's usually best left to GT/Coupes or other vehicles that come with bigger engines than sports cars.

Anyone shopping HP per Dollar will always find a reason NOT to by a BMW or Audi because they simply aren't built to that spec.

I don't get the apples-llamas sky is falling comparison of this thread.

[PsyberVW]

There's nothing new about the Germans making an inferior product at an inflated price they've been doing it since the mid 90s.

Entirely subjective. I wouldn't say it's inferior product, but I will agree that the prices seem excessive.

BMW is probably the worst offender with the inane pricing on options and packages.

But then again - look at the Mustang. You can go from $16k to $75k and still get the same interior.

[SchnellFowVay]

With GM and Ford coming out with 550/650hp cars for cheaper.. those ARE now being cross shopped with the M3/Audi/MB brand because of the price-to-fun ratio.. Remember the '12 Mustang GT and the E92 M3?

The new RS car is going to have the RS5 motor.. and the new M3 has the turbo'd 6 coming for it.
While it may handle better than the US variants, most people don't track their cars and love ACCELERATION it seems. If you want a track rat, you get an Elise..
The new camaro/mustang's are already on par with these european sports car on the track.. besides the obvious interior/exterior.. Why wouldn't anyone want one since they're so much cheaper?

When the M3 with the turbo hits 550hp, the ZL1/GT500 will be at 700whp...

This whole situation is not anything new.

Back in the 1980's even the BMW M3 only had 200hp. Corvettes had almost 50% more power . . . etc. The damn BMW M1 (and "exotic" car) only had 270hp.

[PsyberVW]

This whole situation is not anything new.

Back in the 1980's even the BMW M3 only had 200hp. Corvettes had almost 50% more power . . . etc. The damn BMW M1 (and "exotic" car) only had 270hp.

and the M3 was a 4 banger.

[50fridge]

Are people really cross-shoping RS5's and M3's with GT500's and ZL1's? Most likely not. When my dad got an Audi S4. There was nothing made by an American or Japanese manufacture to match it. Even if a Mustang GT 0-60 is similar to the S4. The S4 out handles it, has better transmission, interior, and the AWD system is one of the best in the industry.

[AZGolf]

A sports car is a front engine, rear wheel drive 2-seat convertible with sporting intentions. As was pointed out, the only car from Audi/BMW that fits this description is the BMW Z-series. Everything else mentioned would be either a musclecar, sports coupe, sports sedan, or grand touring car. While vehicles do sometimes get widely cross-shopped by price ($60k Camaro versus $60K BMW?) it's not as common as shopping within a particular segment, such as sports sedan.

[JLJetta]

"In the end, its still a Ford" -Some BMW owner at my job a few months back, when talking about the GT500

Enzo Ferrari once felt the same way.

[Chipped B6]

to the people trying to define sports car/coupe/GT in this thread..

back OT: There ARE people cross shopping it. And who said I was? I've been lately thinking about it too as there is a huge want factor with high HP cars. How desirable would a Ferrari be if a Toyota Camry V6 could keep up with it?

[2.0T_Convert]

to the people trying to define sports car/coupe/GT in this thread..

back OT: There ARE people cross shopping it. And who said I was? I've been lately thinking about it too as there is a huge want factor with high HP cars. How desirable would a Ferrari be if a Toyota Camry V6 could keep up with it?

I don't know about Camry V6 but if a $350,000 Ferrari was just as fast as a $75,000 limited edition carbon fiber Mustang if I could afford it I'd take the Ferrari because Ferrari.

[Juiced6]

"In the end, its still a Ford" -Some BMW owner at my job a few months back, when talking about the GT500

same can be said about a BMW

it really is just a preference

Enzo Ferrari once felt the same way.

[PsyberVW]

to the people trying to define sports car/coupe/GT in this thread..

to the people that ignorantly throw around terms they don't understand...

. How desirable would a Ferrari be if a Toyota Camry V6 could keep up with it?

About as desireable as they are now, and as they always have been.

The person who is thinking HP/$ isn't the person who should be buying a Ferrari or a BMW. They will never appreciate or understand what these vehicles offer until they change perspective.

Not saying they are right or wrong - just saying it isn't their "crowd".

[Wheelwright]

The Germans don't produce direct competitors to el-cheapo muscle cars. Their sports cars are smaller, nimbler, better assembled and utilize superior materials and technology. And none of them will ever fall apart above 112 miles/hr as V6 Mustangs do (link). That's because German cars are made primarily for the European market where handling and quality matter most. Apple and orange comparison really.

[zsqure]

camaro and mustang cannot hold a candle to the likes of anything from BMW or Audi. The german autos may not have the straightline acceleration of the US junk, but lets see who turns the first corner flat out. I guarantee the german cars will be pulling away in the corner like they are on rails. And the so called pony cars will be eating grass in the field they just spun out in.

[Chipped B6]

to the people that ignorantly throw around terms they don't understand...


About as desireable as they are now, and as they always have been.

The person who is thinking HP/$ isn't the person who should be buying a Ferrari or a BMW. They will never appreciate or understand what these vehicles offer until they change perspective.

Not saying they are right or wrong - just saying it isn't their "crowd".

It's not ignorant if my description of the car is correct. It's a sporty. car. I don't get why someone would get all nitpicky about something like that. Seriously? I understand if I called a muscle car an exotic.. but a sports coup/GT car, a sports car? Like seriously?

Secondly; they WOULDN'T be desirable. There are plenty of cars made that look exotic in nature, but don't have anywhere near the prestige or racing pedigree. So.. in that case, if they were slow, but looked as good as they do now, everyone might change their minds about what a Lambo/Ferrari "can do on the track".
It's the high strung, screaming V8/V12's that separate them from the rest.

Now if they didn't have it.. would it be desirable? Same can be said for Camry with a Ferrari motor. It wouldn't work, both things need to be there. Looks and performance.

This is the thing it comes down to.. the cars are looking good from both countries, and are fast to boot. While remaining cheaper in the US.

I'm a diehard euro car (mainly BMW) fan, but the 'mericans are catching up. It's just a matter of when they'll be overtaken if they don't up something to make them stand out for the excessive premium they cost over the US cars.

Oh and btw; the ZL1 reported a faster 'ring time than any production BMW in the history of everything. Besides their race cars.

[Juiced6]

The Germans don't produce direct competitors to el-cheapo muscle cars. Their sports cars are smaller, nimbler, better assembled and utilize superior materials and technology. And none of them will ever fall apart above 112 miles/hr as V6 Mustangs do (link). That's because German cars are made primarily for the European market where handling and quality matter most. Apple and orange comparison really.

Autobahn perhaps?
If i had to live driving on the highway/interstate for over 30 minutes for work ever again i will be going back to a german car.

This is one thing I think the BMW/Audi/VWs do very well.

As for that mustang - wtf are you doing taking a V6 mustang to 135mph on the streets?

[audi0to60]

I was planning on purchasing a camaro less than a year ago until I sat inside...
It feels as if the engineers/designers took their vacation when the interior was being planned.

[Juiced6]

I was planning on purchasing a camaro less than a year ago until I sat inside...
It feels as if the engineers/designers took their vacation when the interior was being planned.

people demanded retro
chevy delivered retro

i would only buy a COPO

[Activ8]

What sports cars? The only sports car between any of the companies you've mentioned is the BMW Z-series.

Other than the E36/7 & E36/8 Z3 M Coupe - the Z cars were never sports cars. Even BMW doesn't sell the Z4 as a "sports car", but a GT, so go figure.

A sports car is a front engine, rear wheel drive 2-seat convertible with sporting intentions. As was pointed out, the only car from Audi/BMW that fits this description is the BMW Z-series. Everything else mentioned would be either a musclecar, sports coupe, sports sedan, or grand touring car. While vehicles do sometimes get widely cross-shopped by price ($60k Camaro versus $60K BMW?) it's not as common as shopping within a particular segment, such as sports sedan.

I can't believe someone thinks he's the authority for defining such things. No comments for this one although this definition of sports car is nothing more than a "roadster", and hence falls into the category of everything else mentioned

[C4 A6]

Really? Corvette and R8 don't count as sports cars?

Whoops, forgot about that one.

And no, the R8 is NOT a "sports car."

[mack73]

WTF is up with all of these definitions of sports car.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sports+car?s=t


Where has anyone said it must be front engine

All I read is a 2 seater with "sporty" intensions, manuverability, agility, etc.

the R8 is a sports car

[BRealistic]

the R8 is a sports car

If the 3600 lb all wheel drive R8 is a sports car, then so is the 3600 lb all wheel drive Mazdaspeed6.

Do you agree?

[DamienR8]

I really hate these goddamn threads

[someguy123]

same can be said about a BMW

No way, pal. Unless it's a Ferrari/Lambo owner.

[stascom]

More horsepower = better racecar

[stascom]

If the 3600 lb all wheel drive R8 is a sports car, then so is the 3600 lb all wheel drive Mazdaspeed6.

Do you agree?

Are we ignoring power, number of doors, and suspension?