Power steering delete. Is it worth it?

[Taytor]

So I have researched a little about deleting the power steering.

I have an 89 Golf GL. 1.8l 8v. Manual tranny.

I was informed by friends that it would reduce some weight and help free up some HP (one less belt to turn)

IM NOT trying to build a race car here, just wanting to possible rid myself of one more thing under the hood that I might not need.

So is it worth it? How difficultg will it be to turn the wheel after the power steering is gone?
Is it worth the hassle of deleting it?

[Glegor]

So I have researched a little about deleting the power steering.

I have an 89 Golf GL. 1.8l 8v. Manual tranny.

I was informed by friends that it would reduce some weight and help free up some HP (one less belt to turn)

IM NOT trying to build a race car here, just wanting to possible rid myself of one more thing under the hood that I might not need.

So is it worth it? How difficultg will it be to turn the wheel after the power steering is gone?
Is it worth the hassle of deleting it?

how hard is it to turn the wheels without power steering?

well, if you dont swap a manual steering rack into your car, you better be pretty friggen buff, because its NOT EASY to turn the wheels without power steering..

if you swap in the manual rack, its quite a bit easier..

but, the thing is, the power steering system weighs less than 20 pounds, and doesnt take any noticable power to run it either.. the VW system uses a TINY pump compared to other systems ive seen. as long as you dont have issues with keeping the belt tight, i would just leave it there..

you get TONS of road feedback thru a power rack without it hooked up to power steering. you get none of that feedback thru the manual rack, like with the power rack..

i daily drive an 86 GTI with manual steering, and boy, let me tell you what, its NIGHT AND DAY different, driving my 92 jetta thats equipped with power steering.. the jetta handles and steers much nicer..

if it were me, and the system is good, and completely functional, i would leave it there, and maintain it..

[weejunGL]

i've got some insight here. and this is my new found knowledge:

i've got a Golf 2 G60 syncro

i had a powersteering setup, which i later ditched for the loop-kit which is sold right here on the tex.

had issues with it being choppy when steering, and very very hard to turn the wheel, even when driving.

so i ditched the loop kit, and did a manual rack conversion, still hard to steer. and i'm on 195-45-16 wheels, so it should not be that hard

so, i'm going back to the powersteering

yes, you get a bit more feedback from the non PS, but not that much.. and the pump does not steal that much power..

its your choice. i would reccomend powersteering, especially if you usually run your car slow, like in a town etc


and excuse my terrible english, kinda hard to get my point since i don't know all the right words in english

[rick90210]

how hard is it to turn the wheels without power steering?

well, if you dont swap a manual steering rack into your car, you better be pretty friggen buff, because its NOT EASY to turn the wheels without power steering..

if you swap in the manual rack, its quite a bit easier..

.

He is right... I have an old 1990 jetta that has power steering, but the pump is not connected... and let me tell you.. IT IS HARD to turn the wheels when parked.. it is not like having manual steering... which uses a totally different system...

so, is it worth it to just remove the power steering pump and hoses and leave the power steering rack? NO. not even if you gained 10 horses on power...

is it worh it to swap it for a manual rack system ? probably yes, but that depends.

maybe, you could remove the pump belt and drive the car around the block... and definitly test it like if you were getting out of a parking slot with cars in front and back, which is were not having the power pump really shines , that way you could get an idea what it is like to have power steering without the power steering pump jejeje...

[TomSwift]

I highly recommend it, driving is great (so much feedback from the road) but parking is a total pain in the ass. Just don't ever turn your wheels unless your car is moving or you could break your rack. Also be aware you need to find the longer universal joint for the manual rack to swap in, that for me was the worst part of doing it.

[weejunGL]

I highly recommend it, driving is great (so much feedback from the road) but parking is a total pain in the ass. Just don't ever turn your wheels unless your car is moving or you could break your rack. Also be aware you need to find the longer universal joint for the manual rack to swap in, that for me was the worst part of doing it.

there isn't much difference in feedback..

[AnAgentOrange]

I'm currently running looped steering rack. Not by choice. Hit a rock in a canyon and it broke that bracket that holds the pump. On street driving, it's totally fine. I actually really like it on the streets. Feels great and there's just a hair more on the butt dyno. Not hard to steer at all (but I drive a 69 FJ40 with 33's and no power steering off road, so you can't trust me) but as soon as I get into the canyons, I wish I had my power steering back.

[Maggiolone]

I wish my MK1 has power steering. Light as it may be, I dislike parking lots and parallel parking.

Without power, the feel is tighter, but you can relax with power steering. Little undulations in the road don't seem to come into play with the wheel in power steering.

[Glegor]

I wish my MK1 has power steering. Light as it may be, I dislike parking lots and parallel parking.

Without power, the feel is tighter, but you can relax with power steering. Little undulations in the road don't seem to come into play with the wheel in power steering.

no mk1 ever needed power steering, they are 1600#s

i drive my mk1 like it has power steering.. i still palm the steering wheel with one hand, and cut it from lock to lock easily..

my mk2 tho, its not that easy.

mk1s NEVER needed power steering in my opinion, except the female cabriolet owners..

mk2s, its a take it or leave it type of thing.. if you dont want it, then get rid of it the right way, and swap in a manual rack. you can use the u-joint off a rabbit, to hook the manual rack to your existing steering shaft. the mk2 u-joint is basically made of unobtanium..

and YOU GUYS can take my word on all of what ive said.. BOTH of my GTIs are manual steering, and my TD jetta was manual steer for the first part of its life.. hooked up power steer, and it is AMAZING.. never deleting power steering ever again, unless im goin with a track car..

[89Coupe]

i've got some insight here. and this is my new found knowledge:

i've got a Golf 2 G60 syncro

i had a powersteering setup, which i later ditched for the loop-kit which is sold right here on the tex.

had issues with it being choppy when steering, and very very hard to turn the wheel, even when driving.

so i ditched the loop kit, and did a manual rack conversion, still hard to steer. and i'm on 195-45-16 wheels, so it should not be that hard

so, i'm going back to the powersteering

yes, you get a bit more feedback from the non PS, but not that much.. and the pump does not steal that much power..

its your choice. i would reccomend powersteering, especially if you usually run your car slow, like in a town etc


and excuse my terrible english, kinda hard to get my point since i don't know all the right words in english

Seemed to nail the English pretty well

[Glegor]

Seemed to nail the English pretty well

thats what i thought too.. post was quite clear, and easy to understand..

judging from all his posts, i would have assumed he was pretty fluent in English..

[Guidofester]

Several things to add. MKII power steering system sucks balls. All the cars in my area are subject to sever winter environment and heavy salt and slush on the roads in the winter months that reaks havoc on the pulleys. I have seen several MKII's where the pulleys wore a hole from the belt slipping. Another problem is that the power steering belt also drives the water pump. When it slips so does the water pump.

If you don't tighten the belt enough it will squeal. If you tighten it too much you put stress on the power steering pump & water pump bearings. There isn't very much adjustment on this system and it it a pita to adjust. Also if the belt comes loose the engine won't cool properly especially when the belt gets wet.

On the MKII that I have for my mom I installed the MKIII serpentine system. It is one of the best modifications I have ever done. High level of satisfaction. Very east to adjust, and you can keep a spare serpentine belt in the car when on a road trip just in case. If you have to replace the serpentine belt you can just cut off the power steering belt with a knife and install a new serpentine belt using a pair of vise grips or an adjustable wrench.

[Guidofester]

On my autocross car I still have a power steering rack but I installed a non-power steering pulley on the water pump that allows me to use one belt to drive the alternator and the water pump.

Somewhere in the post selling the power steering delete kits there is a linc that shows the proper way to convert the power steering rack to manual. Apparently it helps if you disassemble the rack and remove the power steering seals. The seals make it hard to steer the rack. I can't really add anything or comment on this modification because I haven't had the opportunity to remove these seals from my rack. When I find the linc I will post a linc to it.

[Glegor]

Several things to add. MKII power steering system sucks balls. All the cars in my area are subject to sever winter environment and heavy salt and slush on the roads in the winter months that reaks havoc on the pulleys. I have seen several MKII's where the pulleys wore a hole from the belt slipping. Another problem is that the power steering belt also drives the water pump. When it slips so does the water pump.

If you don't tighten the belt enough it will squeal. If you tighten it too much you put stress on the power steering pump & water pump bearings. There isn't very much adjustment on this system and it it a pita to adjust. Also if the belt comes loose the engine won't cool properly especially when the belt gets wet.

On the MKII that I have for my mom I installed the MKIII serpentine system. It is one of the best modifications I have ever done. High level of satisfaction. Very east to adjust, and you can keep a spare serpentine belt in the car when on a road trip just in case. If you have to replace the serpentine belt you can just cut off the power steering belt with a knife and install a new serpentine belt using a pair of vise grips or an adjustable wrench.

mk3 serp setup does not drive the water pump or power steering in a normal factory setup..

[Glegor]

On my autocross car I still have a power steering rack but I installed a non-power steering pulley on the water pump that allows me to use one belt to drive the alternator and the water pump.

Somewhere in the post selling the power steering delete kits there is a linc that shows the proper way to convert the power steering rack to manual. Apparently it helps if you disassemble the rack and remove the power steering seals. The seals make it hard to steer the rack. I can't really add anything or comment on this modification because I haven't had the opportunity to remove these seals from my rack. When I find the linc I will post a linc to it.

there is no PROPER way to convert a POWER RACK to manual steering, IMHO.. not even the loop.

to swap to manual steering THE RIGHT WAY, you install a manual steering rack and be done with it.

or drive your car with power steering and be happy..

[Guidofester]

mk3 serp setup does not drive the water pump or power steering in a normal factory setup..

Look again. There are several serpentine set-ups. Most came with air,some didn't. My serpentine set-up runs the water pump and the power steering pump runs directly off the crank. The water pump pulley is designed for the serpentine belt thus impossible to be powered by the vee belt.

For this conversion you have to use the MKIII Power Steering pump. This pump uses a banjo bolt to connect the pressure line. The MKII uses a fitting similar to a brake line only larger. Suprise, the pitch is the came and I just bolted the MKII fitting into the MKIII pump. The MKIII pump works much better than the MKII pump. Don't know why but I suspect that the lpressure relief valve in the pump is better.


Even if you find a system from a car with Air conditioning you can still use it. You just have to find a water pump pulley designed for the serpentine system and use a belt from a diesel MKIII.
I'll take a few pictures later.

[Guidofester]

there is no PROPER way to convert a POWER RACK to manual steering, IMHO.. not even the loop.

to swap to manual steering THE RIGHT WAY, you install a manual steering rack and be done with it.

or drive your car with power steering and be happy..

As stated this is for my "Autocross car". Not a daily driver. Car is hard to steer when parking, but responds much better on the track. The year before I had a serpentine system on this same car and I would definitely recommend deleting the power steering for autocross. The power steering rack also has a different ratio than the factory manual rack that seems to be great for autocross.

Next I am going to disassemble a power steering rack and remove the seals as suggested in another post in hopes a to make parking the autocross car a little easier.

Check out this linc post #8. There is a linc there describing how to remove the seals.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...teering+delete

[Glegor]

As stated this is for my "Autocross car". Not a daily driver. Car is hard to steer when parking, but responds much better on the track. The year before I had a serpentine system on this same car and I would definitely recommend deleting the power steering for autocross. The power steering rack also has a different ratio than the factory manual rack that seems to be great for autocross.

Next I am going to disassemble a power steering rack and remove the seals as suggested in another post in hopes a to make parking the autocross car a little easier.

Check out this linc post #8. There is a linc there describing how to remove the seals.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...teering+delete

dude, link is spelled L-I-N-K theres no C in it, and you LIKE spelling it that way, so i figure maybe you didnt know any better..

anyways, i dont see how its going to be EASIER to turn if the seals are removed. but its not like you have to worry about your rack locking up going down the road..

yes, power racks will LOCK UP if they are left without power for long enough.. my buddy has one that basically locked up one day, his mom was driving the car..

yes, the power rack has a QUICKER ratio..

manual rack is 4 turns lock to lock. power rack is ~3.2 turns lock to lock.. so for auto-x, it CAN be done, and can be better, but for ease of use, im going for manual steering..

manual rack is MUCH LIGHTER anyways.. most people remove there power steering because of weight, and thats kinda half-ass leaving the HEAVIER rack in the car, sure you saved A LITTLE weight, but why not save 10 more pounds, and use the LIGHTER steering rack?

[Guidofester]

Linc Link. I use both but from now on I will try my best to use the proper from that you mention. At least I spelled it correct when I repaired my link as stated for the reason for editing my post,but it all went to hell when I wrote fixing wrong.

The only reason I would remove the power steering is to simplify the system. Autocross purposes only. I will disassemble a power steering rack, when I get a chance, and remove the seals. This will only be on the Autocross car. When I do I will post up my results.

The only reason I don't use a manual rack is because I don't have one. They are few and far between in these parts.

[weejunGL]

Seemed to nail the English pretty well

well, thank you :=)

thats what i thought too.. post was quite clear, and easy to understand..

judging from all his posts, i would have assumed he was pretty fluent in English..

being norwegian, my second language is english, but i'm mostly self thaught

Several things to add. MKII power steering system sucks balls. All the cars in my area are subject to sever winter environment and heavy salt and slush on the roads in the winter months that reaks havoc on the pulleys. I have seen several MKII's where the pulleys wore a hole from the belt slipping. Another problem is that the power steering belt also drives the water pump. When it slips so does the water pump.

If you don't tighten the belt enough it will squeal. If you tighten it too much you put stress on the power steering pump & water pump bearings. There isn't very much adjustment on this system and it it a pita to adjust. Also if the belt comes loose the engine won't cool properly especially when the belt gets wet.

Well, the MK2 PS system is exactly the same as the MK3 altho it has some pulley differences. the rack and pump are still pretty much the same

anyhow, i live in norway, we have pretty harsh weather, and long winters, and the gouvernment uses salt as a solution for keeping all the bad drivers on the roads here

and i do not have the same experience as you on that problem, yes, pulleys wear down, but thats normal on a V-belt over time (15+ years)

i strongly suggest a splashguard for the pulleys if this is a problem. i've had about 10 different golfs, mostly with Powersteering, and i've never had this problem before, with or without splashguards

i just think you've had some bad luck

[WAGENHAUS]

No it's not worth the time and headache, unless some high dollar or unavailable parts are needed. To repair your P/S system.

[JettaKid90]

I have a 90 Jetta and since i first got it, it never had the P/S belt and i like it better without it. But like mentioned above, it really sucks when your trying to park.

[twinair]

[QUOTE=Glegor;77396824]no mk1 ever needed power steering, they are 1600#s


I beg to differ.

1980-1984 (North America)

* With A/C and manual trans: 2,236 - 2,276 pounds



1984.5-1985 (North America)

* With A/C and manual trans: 2,276 pounds



1986-1987 (North America)

* With A/C and manual trans: 2,254 pounds



1988-1993 (Worldwide)

* With A/C and manual trans: 2,330 pounds

[Glegor]

there isn't much difference in feedback..

there is MORE feedback with the rack NOT connected to the pump.. my Jetta has more road feedback than any other car i have.

ive been driving that car for about the last week, and let me tell you what, my shoulders are friggen hurting!!! power steering is going to be hooked back up later today..

[Glegor]

[QUOTE=twinair;77881391]

no mk1 ever needed power steering, they are 1600#s


I beg to differ.

1980-1984 (North America)

* With A/C and manual trans: 2,236 - 2,276 pounds



1984.5-1985 (North America)

* With A/C and manual trans: 2,276 pounds



1986-1987 (North America)

* With A/C and manual trans: 2,254 pounds



1988-1993 (Worldwide)

* With A/C and manual trans: 2,330 pounds

im going by the weight that the scale at the scrap yard/weigh station tells me, not what you tell me.

the scales at the scrappers/weigh stations are calibrated REGULARLY.

my 86 GTI is 2200#s with me in it (200lbs), my stereo/tools (100lbs easy) and a full tank of fuel (~100lbs)

and when i used to work at the rock pit (scale also calibrated regularly) i weighed BOTH of my rabbits at different times. both cars were 1900#s (within ~75 lbs of each other, iirc) when loaded (me, tank of fuel, stereo, tools)

the ADVERTISED WEIGHT of a car is ALWAYS more than the actual weight, from my experiences..

so, i stand by what i said. also, none of those cars have power steering or a/c

(FWIW, those cars weigh the same #s on truck weigh stations as well)

im not JUST GUESSING that weight, im actually basing it on factual evidence.. i highly doubt that EVERY SCALE ive ever used has been that far out of calibration.. thats like 35% off if you say they weigh 2250, and i say 1600-1700.

mk1s are LIGHT. 3-4 guys can pick up a mk1 w/ no engine and move it. ive done it.

sorry if you dont agree, but i stand by what i said.. and the likelihood of EVERY SCALE being mis-calibrated, is not a possibility, really..

im not going off some number that a book, or someone else told me, im going by the numbers that my 2 god given eyes read off the scale display.

(btw, the scale at the rock pit, was sensitive to 25#s)

[Glegor]

i still stand by what i said, no mk1 EVER NEEDED POWER STEERING!!!

even with 205/40/17 tires/wheels on it, still was easy to steer..

[AnAgentOrange]

there is MORE feedback with the rack NOT connected to the pump.. my Jetta has more road feedback than any other car i have.

ive been driving that car for about the last week, and let me tell you what, my shoulders are friggen hurting!!! power steering is going to be hooked back up later today..

Shoulders hurt??? I've been rocking a looped rack in my Mk2 for a couple months with a mountain commute at speed for work. Shoulders hurt the first 2 days because I was too tense with the extra feedback, but now I love it. Just need to get ball joint extenders and tie rod flip kit to kill some of my bump steer.

[Glegor]

Shoulders hurt??? I've been rocking a looped rack in my Mk2 for a couple months with a mountain commute at speed for work. Shoulders hurt the first 2 days because I was too tense with the extra feedback, but now I love it. Just need to get ball joint extenders and tie rod flip kit to kill some of my bump steer.

i daily drive a mk2 with REAL manual steering. it is only marginally harder to drive than power steering. i cant tell a difference going down the road, between the manual, and the power car, besides the power car has basically ZERO road feedback.. the only time you really tell the difference between the GTI (manual) and the Jetta (power) is when you are going under 10mph, or parking..

as for my shoulders hurting, i run 195 60s, and my car needs an alignment.. plus, on top of that, i have a bad back. so, easier steering is WORTH IT to me..

ball joint extenders? tie rod flip kit? WTF, are you slammed to the ground or something? i would have the front bumper/lip or oil pan ripped off your car in 5 minutes around here.. you can only go SOO LOW when you live in the country.. i still need some height to my cars. any lower, and my car would rub WAY MORE than i feel comfortable..

[AnAgentOrange]

i daily drive a mk2 with REAL manual steering. it is only marginally harder to drive than power steering. i cant tell a difference going down the road, between the manual, and the power car, besides the power car has basically ZERO road feedback.. the only time you really tell the difference between the GTI (manual) and the Jetta (power) is when you are going under 10mph, or parking..

as for my shoulders hurting, i run 195 60s, and my car needs an alignment.. plus, on top of that, i have a bad back. so, easier steering is WORTH IT to me..

ball joint extenders? tie rod flip kit? WTF, are you slammed to the ground or something? i would have the front bumper/lip or oil pan ripped off your car in 5 minutes around here.. you can only go SOO LOW when you live in the country.. i still need some height to my cars. any lower, and my car would rub WAY MORE than i feel comfortable..

I live in the desert. Which means NASTY roads (if there is pavement). I'm not slammed all that low, but I want the control arms to come up to level to quell some of the quirks my car has in the mountains like the off camber dips. But if I had a bad back, I'd for sure go back to power steering.

[Glegor]

I live in the desert. Which means NASTY roads (if there is pavement). I'm not slammed all that low, but I want the control arms to come up to level to quell some of the quirks my car has in the mountains like the off camber dips. But if I had a bad back, I'd for sure go back to power steering.

ah, gotcha.. when i lowered my cars, i just kept the a-arms parallel to the ground, maybe a tid bit higher..