NYT: Can You Call a 9-year-old a Psychopath?

[Turbio!]

Okay, now THIS is your opinion.

Why don't you sit down and read the entire article through and then we can discuss opinions?

[compy222]

The article addressed that. There was a long-term study where 3 year olds were played a sound followed by a blast of unpleasant noise. All learned to anticipate the noise, but not all showed signs of aversion like tensing or sweating. The ones who didn't show aversion grew up to be criminals.

So the theory is that these kids just DON'T RESPOND TO NEGATIVE REINFORCEMENT. Fear, shame, punishment, whatever. Doesn't matter how young they are. You're not going to beat the psychopathy out of a toddler.

damage or poorly developed centers in that brain that control emotional response are obviously a primary cause for clinically anti-social behavior. these are some really angry people or people with not only low impulse control, but the ability to blend in. you're talking about very dangerous people. however, not all of them are what we would call "crazy," many are people you probably work with or pass on the street. Just because you have issues with your head doesn't mean you don't necessarily still have free will or the willingness to alter your behavior to societal norms...

[Big M]

damage or poorly developed centers in that brain that control emotional response are obviously a primary cause for clinically anti-social behavior. these are some really angry people or people with not only low impulse control, but the ability to blend in. you're talking about very dangerous people. however, not all of them are what we would call "crazy," many are people you probably work with or pass on the street. Just because you have issues with your head doesn't mean you don't necessarily still have free will or the willingness to alter your behavior to societal norms...

How does that relate to my post that you quoted?

[rrr rr]

Can You Call a 9-year-old a Psychopath?

Let's find out.

That 9-year-old is a psychopath.

Yes.

[Run L1ke H3LL]

Why don't you sit down and read the entire article through and then we can discuss opinions?

Dude read the whole thread. I was referring to how you pointed out that corporal punishment doesn't work on "normal kids." I already clarified myself and cited a source over this. Its on the previous page.

[sakigt]

If you download the "This American Life" podcast from this week its about Pyschopath and the test used to diagnose someone as such.

A good hour.

[Fritz27]

Dude read the whole thread. I was referring to how you pointed out that corporal punishment doesn't work on "normal kids." I already clarified myself and cited a source over this. Its on the previous page.

I'm pretty sure nobody was talking about corporal punishment not working on "normal" kids. You were the one struggling to understand that the brains of psychopaths don't work like that of "normal" kids.

[Run L1ke H3LL]

Maintain it all you want. It's ridiculous when talking about children who are neurologically dysfunctional, and not much better when talking about normal kids.

I'm pretty sure nobody was talking about corporal punishment not working on "normal" kids. You were the one struggling to understand that the brains of psychopaths don't work like that of "normal" kids.

You lack reading comprehension then.

[GTiTOM]

If you download the "This American Life" podcast from this week its about Pyschopath and the test used to diagnose someone as such.

A good hour.

There's a great non-fiction book called The Psychopath Test by Jon Ronson (he wrote The Men Who Stare At Goats, that was turned into the movie with Clooney).

The Psychopath Test is a fascinating journey through the minds of madness. Jon Ronson's exploration of a potential hoax being played on the world's top neurologists takes him, unexpectedly, into the heart of the madness industry. An influential psychologist who is convinced that many important CEOs and politicians are, in fact, psychopaths teaches Ronson how to spot these high-flying individuals by looking out for little telltale verbal and nonverbal clues. And so Ronson, armed with his new psychopath-spotting abilities, enters the corridors of power. He spends time with a death-squad leader institutionalized for mortgage fraud in Coxsackie, New York; a legendary CEO whose psychopathy has been speculated about in the press; and a patient in an asylum for the criminally insane who insists he's sane and certainly not a psychopath.

Ronson not only solves the mystery of the hoax but also discovers, disturbingly, that sometimes the personalities at the helm of the madness industry are, with their drives and obsessions, as mad in their own way as those they study. And that relatively ordinary people are, more and more, defined by their maddest edges.

[Tornado2dr]

You lack reading comprehension then.

You're gonna talk about reading comprehension and quote those two statements? Really?

Turbio states that corporal punishment doesn't work for psycopaths, and doesn't work too well for non-crazies...that does not equate to saying it "doesn't work", flat out.

BTW...he isn't wrong.

[Turbio!]

Dude read the whole thread. I was referring to how you pointed out that corporal punishment doesn't work on "normal kids." I already clarified myself and cited a source over this. Its on the previous page.

It doesn't work particularly well. It doesn't reliably promote the internalization of moral lessons, can degrade the parent-child relationship, becomes less effective the more often it's used, can promote antisocial behavior if it's delivered aggressively, and doesn't make the kid behave properly when the parent isn't around. The APA has recommended against it, on the basis of the research I cited. It can create immediate compliance in the discrete situation where corporal punishment is applied, but it's usually at best ineffective and useless - not harmful usually, but also not typically an effective tool in teaching your kid how to behave. And there are usually better ways to achieve short-term compliance if you're not an incompetent parent. So why bother?

That Gershoff paper (here) is a really good overview that analyzes the results of a number of other papers, so I'll refrain from citing more.

So why is it useless? According to Holden (2002), paraphrasing the work of Domjan's The essentials of conditioning and learning (2nd ed. 2002),

Punishment can be an effective agent of behavioral change, but only under certain conditions. To be effective, it must occur after every transgression, be immediate, be intense at least for the first transgression, and not be signaled by a discriminative stimulus. These conditions represent a tall order for parents; in fact, it is likely parents are destined to fail on all four counts.

So I won't flatly assert that it doesn't work, and I didn't. The best available research doesn't convince me that corporal punishment is particularly effective in any but a vanishing minority of cases where parents are able to meet all of the above criteria consistently and without fail. Since it's usually the case that corporal punishment is pretty ineffective, and since doing ineffective things is kind of ridiculous, I stand by my earlier statement in its entirety.

Of course, it goes without saying that when a psychopathic person is punished, by whatever means, it's usually completely ineffective because they're deficient in the empathy required to feel shame or contrition and are therefore not inclined to internalize those emotions to change future actions. All they're gonna do is figure out how to not get caught next time.

[Hurt]

LOL FLORIDA LOL

He is going to grow up to be a killer. Sad, really, that he has to destroy his family instead of himself. I now understand why some people just dump their children in the middle of no-where. If this was my kid, I would have long left him at a Hospital with a white flag of surrender.

[butterface]

Turbio I believe the middle ground you're looking for is 'authoritative parenting'. Overwhelming evidence suggests that it is the best method for rearing 'normal' kids, as well as producing subsequent well-adjusted adults. There is a very real element of punishment, but it is much more structured and psychologically sound than say, whipping your kid and not explaining why.

[GTiTOM]

It doesn't work particularly well. It doesn't reliably promote the internalization of moral lessons, can degrade the parent-child relationship, becomes less effective the more often it's used, can promote antisocial behavior if it's delivered aggressively, and doesn't make the kid behave properly when the parent isn't around. The APA has recommended against it, on the basis of the research I cited. It can create immediate compliance in the discrete situation where corporal punishment is applied, but it's usually at best ineffective and useless - not harmful usually, but also not typically an effective tool in teaching your kid how to behave. So why bother?

That Gershoff paper (here) is a really good overview that analyzes the results of a number of other papers, so I'll refrain from citing more.

So why is it useless? According to Holden (2002), paraphrasing the work of Domjan's The essentials of conditioning and learning (2nd ed. 2002),



So I won't flatly assert that it doesn't work, and I didn't. The best available research doesn't convince me that corporal punishment is particularly effective in any but a vanishing minority of cases where parents are able to meet all of the above criteria consistently and without fail. Since it's usually the case that corporal punishment is pretty ineffective, and since doing ineffective things is kind of ridiculous, I stand by my earlier statement in its entirety.

Of course, it goes without saying that when a psychopathic person is punished, by whatever means, it's usually completely ineffective because they're deficient in the empathy required to feel shame or contrition and are therefore not inclined to internalize those emotions to change future actions. All they're gonna do is figure out how to not get caught next time.

But he had one citation proving you wrong

[Turbio!]

But he had one citation proving you wrong

Not even that. His citation just established that it's not clear whether corporal punishment is potentially harmful. Some research suggests it is, some suggests it's not, but my point was that it was ridiculous, not that it was harmful. It's probably not harmful. It just doesn't do any good if you want to teach your child how to behave and act in a moral fashion.

[GTiTOM]

It's probably not harmful. It just doesn't do any good if you want to teach your child how to behave and act in a moral fashion.

Exactly.

[Turbio!]

Turbio I believe the middle ground you're looking for is 'authoritative parenting'. Overwhelming evidence suggests that it is the best method for rearing 'normal' kids, as well as producing subsequent well-adjusted adults. There is a very real element of punishment, but it is much more structured and psychologically sound than say, whipping your kid and not explaining why.

Yep.

[Brendan@bwalkauto]

Turbio I believe the middle ground you're looking for is 'authoritative parenting'. Overwhelming evidence suggests that it is the best method for rearing 'normal' kids, as well as producing subsequent well-adjusted adults. There is a very real element of punishment, but it is much more structured and psychologically sound than say, whipping your kid and not explaining why.

That's how I was raised, and I can say it was plenty effective.

[FBMphil]

Turbio I believe the middle ground you're looking for is 'authoritative parenting'. Overwhelming evidence suggests that it is the best method for rearing 'normal' kids, as well as producing subsequent well-adjusted adults. There is a very real element of punishment, but it is much more structured and psychologically sound than say, whipping your kid and not explaining why.

I likely would have been raised with that method had I not hatched at age 11

[Turbio!]

I likely would have been raised with that method had I not hatched at age 11

Psh. Commoner. I sprang fully formed from my father's forehead, kicked some monster/demigod ass, and then came back for some wine.

[Sloan Ketterling]

On the bright side if Michael ever runs away from home, for the reasons of being misunderstoood like I would imagine any child in his circumstance may feel, I've been told they have a great age progression photo that could be used on the back of that milk carton...