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    Thread: Homebrew DSG Clutch Pack

    1. Member
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      Snailed Vee
      05-18-2012 04:17 AM #1
      On the clutch pack im currently running 5 inner and 4 outer friction plates with considerable slippage.
      I will be increasing this to 6 and 5 with an additional steel with each.
      I will be grinding down the steels to accomodate the additional stack height but also taking some of the free play out of the setup.
      This means that i will be buying two clutch kits to build one, with a few components left over for the future.
      Im already running Unitronic stage 3 DSG software, so we will see what happens...
      Last edited by sTT eV6; 05-18-2012 at 04:20 AM.

    2. 05-22-2012 03:24 PM #2
      5 inner and 4 outer on every of both clutch packs ?
      What discs you use and will use ? Stock or SSP ?
      And are you have any DSG logs ? I am interested to see what clutch pressure you run with that stage 3 file ?

    3. Member
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      Snailed Vee
      05-22-2012 04:17 PM #3
      I will be using new OEM clutch packs as there was a revision on the friction plate materials.
      Steels are currently at the machine shop and will be built up next week and then the engine will go in, with the plumbing. Then we will see.
      Clutch pressures aren't as important at the input and output shaft speeds.
      Steve
      Last edited by sTT eV6; 05-24-2012 at 02:51 AM.

    4. 05-23-2012 07:39 PM #4
      Wowwww interested to hear the outcome!

    5. 05-30-2012 06:05 PM #5
      Quote Originally Posted by sTT eV6 View Post
      I will be using new OEM clutch packs as there was a revision on the friction plate materials.
      So, you are not so happy with SSP clutch pack ???

      Quote Originally Posted by sTT eV6 View Post
      Steels are currently at the machine shop and will be built up next week and then the engine will go in, with the plumbing. Then we will see.
      We already try solution with one more steel and one more friction disc on even of both packets, with stock clutch pressure you can hold around 500-550nm torque on crank.

      Quote Originally Posted by sTT eV6 View Post
      Clutch pressures aren't as important at the input and output shaft speeds.
      Steve
      Why you think clutch pressures arent important ??? On DSG boxes clutch pressure is like pressure plate force on conventional clutches

    6. Member
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      Snailed Vee
      05-31-2012 07:51 AM #6
      Quote Originally Posted by kelesha View Post
      So, you are not so happy with SSP clutch pack ???
      I wasn't happy with the old SSP clutch setup but i was pushing it beyond its limits.

      [/QUOTE]
      We already try solution with one more steel and one more friction disc on even of both packets, with stock clutch pressure you can hold around 500-550nm torque on crank.[/QUOTE]

      I was running these numbers on a stock clutch and upgraded software but im pushing beyond this.

      [/QUOTE]
      Why you think clutch pressures arent important ??? On DSG boxes clutch pressure is like pressure plate force on conventional clutches[/QUOTE]

      It doesn't matter what the oil pressure is at as long as you can maintain the same shaft speeds and if the speed differs then obv you need more pressure or a better friction material and or etched steels.

      Im currently in talks with two companies that have got together to produce a better package than has been previously supplied for the 02M DSG and there may be a product release soon.
      Steve

    7. Member sentari's Avatar
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      06-15-2012 02:18 PM #7
      So what does is mean when HPA says (6:7 disk) Performance Clutch Pack? I have that coming with the Stage IV software. SSP is just about 100 miles from me, but I decided not to use them.
      Sentari,
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    8. Member
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      Snailed Vee
      06-15-2012 03:11 PM #8
      HPA offer more friction plates and steels within the pack over the OEM amount.
      It will increase the amount of friction generated over OEM.
      More friction equals more heat though, so this has to be catered for, that's why I'm putting a DSG oil cooler in the equation.
      Steve

    9. Member sentari's Avatar
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      06-16-2012 12:15 AM #9
      But what do the numbers mean exactly? I don't get how you can just change the numbers... I should have watched when we pulled the clutch pack out to see it more closely.
      Sentari,
      2008 Audi TT 3.2 (HPA FT500 Turbo): Build: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...ts-Turbo-Build
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    10. Member
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      Snailed Vee
      06-16-2012 07:27 AM #10
      Quote Originally Posted by sentari View Post
      But what do the numbers mean exactly? I don't get how you can just change the numbers... I should have watched when we pulled the clutch pack out to see it more closely.
      There is a certain amount of free play but the steels have to be ground down a certain amount.
      Ask Marcel.. He should know.
      Steve

    11. Member ZPrime's Avatar
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      07-12-2012 12:59 AM #11
      How much torque are you dealing with here? Jeff (UM) has been holding 600nm on stock pack, I believe with room to spare... Are you open to trying other software loads?
      ["OG" Mk5 R32 Club Member 5/3/2008-5/4/2015] Traded [PARTOUT HERE] --> [2012 Sepang Blue TT RS - Click For Mod Blog]
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    12. Member
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      Snailed Vee
      07-12-2012 02:16 AM #12
      Quote Originally Posted by ZPrime View Post
      How much torque are you dealing with here? Jeff (UM) has been holding 600nm on stock pack, I believe with room to spare... Are you open to trying other software loads?
      I'm trying to push upto 800nm and I am currently running 500nm with the software installed.
      We're trying to overcome an engine torque calculation which is currently limiting the torque level the DSG is releasing.
      We're getting there slowly but surely, however UM may be asked to help out if progress stops.
      Steve

    13. 07-25-2012 03:51 AM #13
      Quote Originally Posted by sTT eV6 View Post
      We're trying to overcome an engine torque calculation which is currently limiting the torque level the DSG is releasing.
      I dont understand that ? Can you explain what you mean exactly ?

    14. Member sentari's Avatar
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      07-25-2012 08:33 PM #14
      The DSG unit will only allow so much TQ to be applied. So the trick is to "change its mind" through software (as long as the clutches can hold out).
      Sentari,
      2008 Audi TT 3.2 (HPA FT500 Turbo): Build: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...ts-Turbo-Build
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    15. 07-27-2012 12:51 PM #15
      I'm very interested in this. I have been considering using a DSG on my R32 turbo conversion (in to a corrado) and i'm very interested to know how far we can push this transmission.
      Are you mapping the transmission yourself? I've just got access to some new hardware to read and write the DSG ecu and will start looking into the maps when I have some time.
      I'm going to be looking towards 700nm and 750bhp..... is anyone managing this with a DSG trans?

    16. Banner Advertiser Jefnes3's Avatar
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      07-27-2012 11:35 PM #16
      We are holding ~570-590 ftlbs to the wheels on 4 motion cars.
      Above this cannot be done by software alone.

      upgraded clutch plates are not needed.
      I think my longest running car is on original plates
      and ~2+ years daily driven R32 Turbo.


      -Jeffrey Atwood
      United Motorsport
      UnitedMotorsport.net
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      Funny how launch control and NLS were gimmicks when Matt bought it to med9.
      Now others are using it to make people think the sun shines out of their 4$$.

    17. Member
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      Snailed Vee
      07-28-2012 02:16 AM #17
      Jeff at UM is unleashing the potential on stock clutches and is getting some very good numbers.
      I am trying to push closer to 700bhp and 700lb/ft so I have replaced the DSG oil pump and drive seals, voting basket seals and additional friction discs and pre-etched steels. The only thing I havnt done is added mechanical bracing..yet.

      She will be up and running next week for testing once my ECU is back from Unitronic after the torque output signal to DSG ECU has been rescaled.

      If results are poor then I will be contacting Matt at UM in the UK.
      Steve
      Last edited by sTT eV6; 08-12-2012 at 06:10 AM.

    18. 07-29-2012 02:53 AM #18
      Quote Originally Posted by Jefnes3 View Post
      We are holding ~570-590 ftlbs to the wheels on 4 motion cars.
      Above this cannot be done by software alone.

      upgraded clutch plates are not needed.
      I think my longest running car is on original plates
      and ~2+ years daily driven R32 Turbo.


      -Jeffrey Atwood
      United Motorsport
      So are clutch plates what is needed above this level or are there other parts in the box that fail?

    19. Member sentari's Avatar
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      07-29-2012 02:27 PM #19
      I'd love to see the clutch pack and the pieces, information, related to what they do and what is upgraded etc... This is not a very well defined part, even by those who sell the upgrades.
      Sentari,
      2008 Audi TT 3.2 (HPA FT500 Turbo): Build: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...ts-Turbo-Build
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    20. Member
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      Snailed Vee
      07-30-2012 05:59 AM #20
      The profit in sales will keep the product info under wraps for the time being, but bascially if you can get away with just software then UM can help.
      If you are pushing beyond just a software upgrade then additional friction plates and etched steels along with an uprated Basket seal is required.
      Pushing big power creates additional heat so i will be introducing a newly developed oil cooler for the DSG to keep the temps down.
      To incorporate extra friction plates and steels, the steels have to be evenly ground down whilst also taking some of the slack out of the stack, once built up.
      HPA, Unitronic, UM and SSP are leading the way in DSG performance.

      There are pictures of the clutch packs and seals in my build thread.
      Steve

    21. Banner Advertiser Jefnes3's Avatar
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      08-02-2012 12:29 PM #21
      Quote Originally Posted by jezzag60 View Post
      So are clutch plates what is needed above this level or are there other parts in the box that fail?

      Nothing immediately fails, if your engine supplies more torque than than you current system
      is capable of, the clutches will slip. (same as a manual transmission car)

      Parts fail when you continue to drive the car in this over loaded condition.

      Changing plates does not solve slipping issues.

      My opinion: I think the stock clutch plates will hold more.

      If someone can show a need to go beyond ~800nm we will figure out how to get there.

      -Jeffrey Atwood
      UnitedMotorsport.net
      Email UnitedMotorsport
      Funny how launch control and NLS were gimmicks when Matt bought it to med9.
      Now others are using it to make people think the sun shines out of their 4$$.

    22. Member
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      Snailed Vee
      08-02-2012 04:05 PM #22
      Quote Originally Posted by Jefnes3 View Post
      Nothing immediately fails, if your engine supplies more torque than than you current system
      is capable of, the clutches will slip. (same as a manual transmission car)

      Parts fail when you continue to drive the car in this over loaded condition.

      Changing plates does not solve slipping issues.

      My opinion: I think the stock clutch plates will hold more.

      If someone can show a need to go beyond ~800nm we will figure out how to get there.

      -Jeffrey Atwood
      Thats the level im heading to and hopefully going beyond.
      As long as the software is correct.
      The clutch is man enough.
      The gearbox casing doesn't explode.

      Next week we will be testing what we have ended up with and if the software needs help i may be giving Matt a ring.
      Steve

    23. 08-11-2012 04:39 PM #23
      Quote Originally Posted by Jefnes3 View Post
      ................
      Jeff what 1/4 mile times made these big power DSG cars what you done ?

    24. 08-14-2012 03:48 AM #24
      Any updates??

    25. Banner Advertiser Jefnes3's Avatar
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      08-15-2012 10:44 PM #25
      The 2L cars are 11.0-11.1
      1/4 mile.
      UnitedMotorsport.net
      Email UnitedMotorsport
      Funny how launch control and NLS were gimmicks when Matt bought it to med9.
      Now others are using it to make people think the sun shines out of their 4$$.

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