Username or Email Address
Do you already have an account?
Forgot your password?
  • Log in or Sign up

    VWVortex


    Results 1 to 34 of 34

    Thread: Homebrew DSG Clutch Pack

    1. Member
      Join Date
      Oct 26th, 2010
      Location
      Little ol UK
      Posts
      927
      Vehicles
      05 MK1 3.3 TT V6T
      05-18-2012 04:17 AM #1
      On the clutch pack im currently running 5 inner and 4 outer friction plates with considerable slippage.
      I will be increasing this to 6 and 5 with an additional steel with each.
      I will be grinding down the steels to accomodate the additional stack height but also taking some of the free play out of the setup.
      This means that i will be buying two clutch kits to build one, with a few components left over for the future.
      Im already running Unitronic stage 3 DSG software, so we will see what happens...
      Last edited by sTT eV6; 05-18-2012 at 04:20 AM.

    2. 05-22-2012 03:24 PM #2
      5 inner and 4 outer on every of both clutch packs ?
      What discs you use and will use ? Stock or SSP ?
      And are you have any DSG logs ? I am interested to see what clutch pressure you run with that stage 3 file ?

    3. Member
      Join Date
      Oct 26th, 2010
      Location
      Little ol UK
      Posts
      927
      Vehicles
      05 MK1 3.3 TT V6T
      05-22-2012 04:17 PM #3
      I will be using new OEM clutch packs as there was a revision on the friction plate materials.
      Steels are currently at the machine shop and will be built up next week and then the engine will go in, with the plumbing. Then we will see.
      Clutch pressures aren't as important at the input and output shaft speeds.
      Steve
      Last edited by sTT eV6; 05-24-2012 at 02:51 AM.

    4. 05-23-2012 07:39 PM #4
      Wowwww interested to hear the outcome!

    5. 05-30-2012 06:05 PM #5
      Quote Originally Posted by sTT eV6 View Post
      I will be using new OEM clutch packs as there was a revision on the friction plate materials.
      So, you are not so happy with SSP clutch pack ???

      Quote Originally Posted by sTT eV6 View Post
      Steels are currently at the machine shop and will be built up next week and then the engine will go in, with the plumbing. Then we will see.
      We already try solution with one more steel and one more friction disc on even of both packets, with stock clutch pressure you can hold around 500-550nm torque on crank.

      Quote Originally Posted by sTT eV6 View Post
      Clutch pressures aren't as important at the input and output shaft speeds.
      Steve
      Why you think clutch pressures arent important ??? On DSG boxes clutch pressure is like pressure plate force on conventional clutches

    6. Member
      Join Date
      Oct 26th, 2010
      Location
      Little ol UK
      Posts
      927
      Vehicles
      05 MK1 3.3 TT V6T
      05-31-2012 07:51 AM #6
      Quote Originally Posted by kelesha View Post
      So, you are not so happy with SSP clutch pack ???
      I wasn't happy with the old SSP clutch setup but i was pushing it beyond its limits.

      [/QUOTE]
      We already try solution with one more steel and one more friction disc on even of both packets, with stock clutch pressure you can hold around 500-550nm torque on crank.[/QUOTE]

      I was running these numbers on a stock clutch and upgraded software but im pushing beyond this.

      [/QUOTE]
      Why you think clutch pressures arent important ??? On DSG boxes clutch pressure is like pressure plate force on conventional clutches[/QUOTE]

      It doesn't matter what the oil pressure is at as long as you can maintain the same shaft speeds and if the speed differs then obv you need more pressure or a better friction material and or etched steels.

      Im currently in talks with two companies that have got together to produce a better package than has been previously supplied for the 02M DSG and there may be a product release soon.
      Steve

    7. Member sentari's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 3rd, 2011
      Posts
      413
      Vehicles
      2008 Audi TT 3.2 VR6 Turbo/DSG and 2008 Audi A4 Cab 2.0
      06-15-2012 02:18 PM #7
      So what does is mean when HPA says (6:7 disk) Performance Clutch Pack? I have that coming with the Stage IV software. SSP is just about 100 miles from me, but I decided not to use them.
      Sentari,
      2008 Audi TT 3.2 (HPA FT500 Turbo): Build: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...ts-Turbo-Build
      2008 Audi A4 2.0T Cab (Hi-Flow Cat and APR Tune!)

    8. Member
      Join Date
      Oct 26th, 2010
      Location
      Little ol UK
      Posts
      927
      Vehicles
      05 MK1 3.3 TT V6T
      06-15-2012 03:11 PM #8
      HPA offer more friction plates and steels within the pack over the OEM amount.
      It will increase the amount of friction generated over OEM.
      More friction equals more heat though, so this has to be catered for, that's why I'm putting a DSG oil cooler in the equation.
      Steve

    9. Member sentari's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 3rd, 2011
      Posts
      413
      Vehicles
      2008 Audi TT 3.2 VR6 Turbo/DSG and 2008 Audi A4 Cab 2.0
      06-16-2012 12:15 AM #9
      But what do the numbers mean exactly? I don't get how you can just change the numbers... I should have watched when we pulled the clutch pack out to see it more closely.
      Sentari,
      2008 Audi TT 3.2 (HPA FT500 Turbo): Build: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...ts-Turbo-Build
      2008 Audi A4 2.0T Cab (Hi-Flow Cat and APR Tune!)

    10. Member
      Join Date
      Oct 26th, 2010
      Location
      Little ol UK
      Posts
      927
      Vehicles
      05 MK1 3.3 TT V6T
      06-16-2012 07:27 AM #10
      Quote Originally Posted by sentari View Post
      But what do the numbers mean exactly? I don't get how you can just change the numbers... I should have watched when we pulled the clutch pack out to see it more closely.
      There is a certain amount of free play but the steels have to be ground down a certain amount.
      Ask Marcel.. He should know.
      Steve

    11. Member ZPrime's Avatar
      Join Date
      Mar 7th, 2006
      Location
      [216 / 440] Mayfield Heights, OH
      Posts
      3,288
      Vehicles
      2008 R32 #3603/5000
      07-12-2012 12:59 AM #11
      How much torque are you dealing with here? Jeff (UM) has been holding 600nm on stock pack, I believe with room to spare... Are you open to trying other software loads?
      [Forge CAI, BlueFlame catback, DLI mounts, UM software, RNS510+MDI+9W7BT, RacingBrake 4pot, OEM (projector) fogs, other Euro stuff]
      I'm a tech nerd and radar/lidar countermeasure enthusiast. I like track days, autocross, and US Highway 129. I love aural pleasure.
      WitW 2014 || I UM

    12. Member
      Join Date
      Oct 26th, 2010
      Location
      Little ol UK
      Posts
      927
      Vehicles
      05 MK1 3.3 TT V6T
      07-12-2012 02:16 AM #12
      Quote Originally Posted by ZPrime View Post
      How much torque are you dealing with here? Jeff (UM) has been holding 600nm on stock pack, I believe with room to spare... Are you open to trying other software loads?
      I'm trying to push upto 800nm and I am currently running 500nm with the software installed.
      We're trying to overcome an engine torque calculation which is currently limiting the torque level the DSG is releasing.
      We're getting there slowly but surely, however UM may be asked to help out if progress stops.
      Steve

    13. 07-25-2012 03:51 AM #13
      Quote Originally Posted by sTT eV6 View Post
      We're trying to overcome an engine torque calculation which is currently limiting the torque level the DSG is releasing.
      I dont understand that ? Can you explain what you mean exactly ?

    14. Member sentari's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 3rd, 2011
      Posts
      413
      Vehicles
      2008 Audi TT 3.2 VR6 Turbo/DSG and 2008 Audi A4 Cab 2.0
      07-25-2012 08:33 PM #14
      The DSG unit will only allow so much TQ to be applied. So the trick is to "change its mind" through software (as long as the clutches can hold out).
      Sentari,
      2008 Audi TT 3.2 (HPA FT500 Turbo): Build: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...ts-Turbo-Build
      2008 Audi A4 2.0T Cab (Hi-Flow Cat and APR Tune!)

    15. 07-27-2012 12:51 PM #15
      I'm very interested in this. I have been considering using a DSG on my R32 turbo conversion (in to a corrado) and i'm very interested to know how far we can push this transmission.
      Are you mapping the transmission yourself? I've just got access to some new hardware to read and write the DSG ecu and will start looking into the maps when I have some time.
      I'm going to be looking towards 700nm and 750bhp..... is anyone managing this with a DSG trans?

    16. Banner Advertiser Jefnes3's Avatar
      Join Date
      Aug 17th, 2001
      Location
      Connecticut
      Posts
      5,323
      07-27-2012 11:35 PM #16
      We are holding ~570-590 ftlbs to the wheels on 4 motion cars.
      Above this cannot be done by software alone.

      upgraded clutch plates are not needed.
      I think my longest running car is on original plates
      and ~2+ years daily driven R32 Turbo.


      -Jeffrey Atwood
      United Motorsport
      UnitedMotorsport.net
      Email UnitedMotorsport
      Funny how launch control and NLS were gimmicks when Matt bought it to med9.
      Now others are using it to make people think the sun shines out of their 4$$.

    17. Member
      Join Date
      Oct 26th, 2010
      Location
      Little ol UK
      Posts
      927
      Vehicles
      05 MK1 3.3 TT V6T
      07-28-2012 02:16 AM #17
      Jeff at UM is unleashing the potential on stock clutches and is getting some very good numbers.
      I am trying to push closer to 700bhp and 700lb/ft so I have replaced the DSG oil pump and drive seals, voting basket seals and additional friction discs and pre-etched steels. The only thing I havnt done is added mechanical bracing..yet.

      She will be up and running next week for testing once my ECU is back from Unitronic after the torque output signal to DSG ECU has been rescaled.

      If results are poor then I will be contacting Matt at UM in the UK.
      Steve
      Last edited by sTT eV6; 08-12-2012 at 06:10 AM.

    18. 07-29-2012 02:53 AM #18
      Quote Originally Posted by Jefnes3 View Post
      We are holding ~570-590 ftlbs to the wheels on 4 motion cars.
      Above this cannot be done by software alone.

      upgraded clutch plates are not needed.
      I think my longest running car is on original plates
      and ~2+ years daily driven R32 Turbo.


      -Jeffrey Atwood
      United Motorsport
      So are clutch plates what is needed above this level or are there other parts in the box that fail?

    19. Member sentari's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 3rd, 2011
      Posts
      413
      Vehicles
      2008 Audi TT 3.2 VR6 Turbo/DSG and 2008 Audi A4 Cab 2.0
      07-29-2012 02:27 PM #19
      I'd love to see the clutch pack and the pieces, information, related to what they do and what is upgraded etc... This is not a very well defined part, even by those who sell the upgrades.
      Sentari,
      2008 Audi TT 3.2 (HPA FT500 Turbo): Build: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...ts-Turbo-Build
      2008 Audi A4 2.0T Cab (Hi-Flow Cat and APR Tune!)

    20. Member
      Join Date
      Oct 26th, 2010
      Location
      Little ol UK
      Posts
      927
      Vehicles
      05 MK1 3.3 TT V6T
      07-30-2012 05:59 AM #20
      The profit in sales will keep the product info under wraps for the time being, but bascially if you can get away with just software then UM can help.
      If you are pushing beyond just a software upgrade then additional friction plates and etched steels along with an uprated Basket seal is required.
      Pushing big power creates additional heat so i will be introducing a newly developed oil cooler for the DSG to keep the temps down.
      To incorporate extra friction plates and steels, the steels have to be evenly ground down whilst also taking some of the slack out of the stack, once built up.
      HPA, Unitronic, UM and SSP are leading the way in DSG performance.

      There are pictures of the clutch packs and seals in my build thread.
      Steve

    21. Banner Advertiser Jefnes3's Avatar
      Join Date
      Aug 17th, 2001
      Location
      Connecticut
      Posts
      5,323
      08-02-2012 12:29 PM #21
      Quote Originally Posted by jezzag60 View Post
      So are clutch plates what is needed above this level or are there other parts in the box that fail?

      Nothing immediately fails, if your engine supplies more torque than than you current system
      is capable of, the clutches will slip. (same as a manual transmission car)

      Parts fail when you continue to drive the car in this over loaded condition.

      Changing plates does not solve slipping issues.

      My opinion: I think the stock clutch plates will hold more.

      If someone can show a need to go beyond ~800nm we will figure out how to get there.

      -Jeffrey Atwood
      UnitedMotorsport.net
      Email UnitedMotorsport
      Funny how launch control and NLS were gimmicks when Matt bought it to med9.
      Now others are using it to make people think the sun shines out of their 4$$.

    22. Member
      Join Date
      Oct 26th, 2010
      Location
      Little ol UK
      Posts
      927
      Vehicles
      05 MK1 3.3 TT V6T
      08-02-2012 04:05 PM #22
      Quote Originally Posted by Jefnes3 View Post
      Nothing immediately fails, if your engine supplies more torque than than you current system
      is capable of, the clutches will slip. (same as a manual transmission car)

      Parts fail when you continue to drive the car in this over loaded condition.

      Changing plates does not solve slipping issues.

      My opinion: I think the stock clutch plates will hold more.

      If someone can show a need to go beyond ~800nm we will figure out how to get there.

      -Jeffrey Atwood
      Thats the level im heading to and hopefully going beyond.
      As long as the software is correct.
      The clutch is man enough.
      The gearbox casing doesn't explode.

      Next week we will be testing what we have ended up with and if the software needs help i may be giving Matt a ring.
      Steve

    23. 08-11-2012 04:39 PM #23
      Quote Originally Posted by Jefnes3 View Post
      ................
      Jeff what 1/4 mile times made these big power DSG cars what you done ?

    24. 08-14-2012 03:48 AM #24
      Any updates??

    25. Banner Advertiser Jefnes3's Avatar
      Join Date
      Aug 17th, 2001
      Location
      Connecticut
      Posts
      5,323
      08-15-2012 10:44 PM #25
      The 2L cars are 11.0-11.1
      1/4 mile.
      UnitedMotorsport.net
      Email UnitedMotorsport
      Funny how launch control and NLS were gimmicks when Matt bought it to med9.
      Now others are using it to make people think the sun shines out of their 4$$.

    26. Member
      Join Date
      Oct 26th, 2010
      Location
      Little ol UK
      Posts
      927
      Vehicles
      05 MK1 3.3 TT V6T
      11-02-2012 07:03 AM #26
      Thought i would update this post.
      After setting up my EBC and adjusting the throttle map (3D) pulled down between 2800 rpm and 4000 rpm to de-sensitise the pedal, control over boost is now night and day.
      The resulting efforts of all involved have now allowed higher levels of power to be realised..
      24 psi on 98 RON @ 5500 rpm

      Unitronic still need to do some tweaks but we are getting there.
      Steve

    27. Member storx's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 6th, 2006
      Location
      Earth
      Posts
      1,298
      11-03-2013 12:24 AM #27
      sorry to bring back an old post.. did we ever get the dsg to survive more?? i ask because i will be making alot of torque soon through a dsg if i choose to go this route.
      2001 Audi A4Q LS1 "Race car"
      2009 VW Jetta TDI GTB2260VK, Colt Cam, HP/LP EGR delete "Daily"
      303WHP/491WTQ
      Da Build

    28. Member
      Join Date
      Oct 26th, 2010
      Location
      Little ol UK
      Posts
      927
      Vehicles
      05 MK1 3.3 TT V6T
      11-03-2013 03:59 AM #28
      I ended up stripping teeth on my even gears secondary drive shaft and had to change gearboxes.
      I'm now running a mk2 DSG and Mk2 mechatronic with previous clutch.
      Early days of testing but the new box is tighter and mk2 mechatronic runs better software from Audi with overlaid aftermarket software.
      Pulling about 500lb/ft on 16/17 psi.

      Do you have a build link?
      Steve
      Last edited by sTT eV6; 11-03-2013 at 04:13 AM.

    29. Member storx's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 6th, 2006
      Location
      Earth
      Posts
      1,298
      11-04-2013 11:17 PM #29
      Quote Originally Posted by sTT eV6 View Post
      I ended up stripping teeth on my even gears secondary drive shaft and had to change gearboxes.
      I'm now running a mk2 DSG and Mk2 mechatronic with previous clutch.
      Early days of testing but the new box is tighter and mk2 mechatronic runs better software from Audi with overlaid aftermarket software.
      Pulling about 500lb/ft on 16/17 psi.

      Do you have a build link?
      Steve
      So you are on 2nd or 3rd DSG tranny?
      Are you on stock clutches or did you figure out a homebrew setup.. i would like to know more about it as i want to be able to survive 600wtq...
      I am planning to add a second turbo into the situation to increase my horsepower in the upper rpms. My current turbo is running out of air before i redline with the turbo hitting compressor speed max.. so i have it tuned right at the max of the compressor limits right now. possibly adding an hy35 from an dodge to the mixture.
      2001 Audi A4Q LS1 "Race car"
      2009 VW Jetta TDI GTB2260VK, Colt Cam, HP/LP EGR delete "Daily"
      303WHP/491WTQ
      Da Build

    30. Member
      Join Date
      Oct 26th, 2010
      Location
      Little ol UK
      Posts
      927
      Vehicles
      05 MK1 3.3 TT V6T
      11-05-2013 12:23 PM #30
      Im running the upgraded SSP 11 clutch plate setup as i was on their rubbish 9 before.
      There is less slippage, but the more boost i dial in then the slip appears, so i need a beeter tune for the DSG to increase clamping pressures, but for now she is running around with 500lb/ft at 16psi from the GT35/T04z hybrid, which is good enough for 650/700bhp with good supporting mods.
      Single turbo is less problomatical and adding another is compounding issues, so maybe considering a bigger single turbo with GTX characteristics may be better and the GTX has faster spool up than previous GT versions, however i wanted to push the revs slightly higher up the rev range to allow the DSG some comfort and also with TT DSG gearing im currently touching boost on mild throttle at 3500rpm. She will however start spooling at 2200rpm and on full boost by 3200rpm with aggressive throttle.
      Im on my 2nd box now and the first lasted 185,000 miles before FI pushed it over the edge.
      UM does good software for DSG and even on standard clutch packs.
      Steve

    31. Member storx's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 6th, 2006
      Location
      Earth
      Posts
      1,298
      11-05-2013 09:56 PM #31
      Interesting!!, Do you know the limits of the stock clutches? also may i ask why you went dsg over clutch box?
      I cant run a larger turbo.. because tdi's dont have the rpms to spool anything larger by itself.
      2001 Audi A4Q LS1 "Race car"
      2009 VW Jetta TDI GTB2260VK, Colt Cam, HP/LP EGR delete "Daily"
      303WHP/491WTQ
      Da Build

    32. Member
      Join Date
      Oct 26th, 2010
      Location
      Little ol UK
      Posts
      927
      Vehicles
      05 MK1 3.3 TT V6T
      11-06-2013 03:13 AM #32
      Quote Originally Posted by storx View Post
      Interesting!!, Do you know the limits of the stock clutches? also may i ask why you went dsg over clutch box?
      I cant run a larger turbo.. because tdi's dont have the rpms to spool anything larger by itself.
      I think an OEM clutch will take upto 350lb/ft before it starts to complain too much, however UM seem to have increased these numbers but longevity is unknown.
      I bought the TT with DSG and wanted to explore its limits.
      Running DSG takes some of the stress peaks out of the transmission, but there are limits to what the DSG can handle, an OEM manual tranny would probably have lost 4th gear a long time ago due to high torque.

      Didnt realise you were running an oil burner.
      You are limited in your options.
      My other daily is a BMW 535d which has twin turbos ( little and big ) setup to run sequentially and compound and the power is 340+lb/ft and 700nm+
      Could be your only option to retain early performance.
      Steve

    33. 01-11-2014 02:33 PM #33
      Quote Originally Posted by sTT eV6 View Post
      I think an OEM clutch will take upto 350lb/ft before it starts to complain too much, however UM seem to have increased these numbers but longevity is unknown.
      I bought the TT with DSG and wanted to explore its limits.
      Running DSG takes some of the stress peaks out of the transmission, but there are limits to what the DSG can handle, an OEM manual tranny would probably have lost 4th gear a long time ago due to high torque.

      Didnt realise you were running an oil burner.
      You are limited in your options.
      My other daily is a BMW 535d which has twin turbos ( little and big ) setup to run sequentially and compound and the power is 340+lb/ft and 700nm+
      Could be your only option to retain early performance.
      Steve


      Steve, Im a student doing some research for a school-project.

      Your project is taking a few years now I read on this forum and other forums. Pretty bad luck you have :/
      But also I'm surprised, cause they are enough solution to get it working right. I have seen at least 10 3.2 Turbo or supercharged cars when I was at my workspot.
      I'm sure they can get the SSP clutch working right without the vibration issues you had in the past. Thats the subject my school project is about You changed the friction ratio of the friction plates, the DSG software uses a PID function that controls the variable clutch pressure. This system can self learn as you experienced before, but not enough...
      I'm not sure what i'm allowed to tell or not so if you have questions refer to them.

      You were talking about thinner plates, thats kind a dangerous, I have seen some of these thin plates that were burned&bended.
      Hopefully this info helped you.

      I just posted this in another thread:



      Hi Guys,

      I work(Student) for TVS-engineering a.k.a DSG dokter in The Netherlands.
      They repair and program thousands of DSG's. This is without any doubt the largest DSG specialist in the world
      I'm sure they offer special race clutches as well.

      Their software does 17,5Bar thats the limit till now.
      I know a new they are working on a plug&play solution to achieve 20-25 bar, w/o changing the clutch doing 500-600Nm.
      Check their facebook?!.

      If someone can help me how to post images? Not sure how it works.
      I have some screenshots&photo's.

      Thx

    34. Member sentari's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 3rd, 2011
      Posts
      413
      Vehicles
      2008 Audi TT 3.2 VR6 Turbo/DSG and 2008 Audi A4 Cab 2.0
      01-13-2014 08:15 PM #34
      Steve, I don't recall the "vibration" he's talking about down there? Can you explain? I have what i'm sure is a brake issue (some vibration on stopping), but man ... you know anything is possible!
      Sentari,
      2008 Audi TT 3.2 (HPA FT500 Turbo): Build: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...ts-Turbo-Build
      2008 Audi A4 2.0T Cab (Hi-Flow Cat and APR Tune!)

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •