Homebrew DSG Clutch Pack

[sTT eV6]

On the clutch pack im currently running 5 inner and 4 outer friction plates with considerable slippage.
I will be increasing this to 6 and 5 with an additional steel with each.
I will be grinding down the steels to accomodate the additional stack height but also taking some of the free play out of the setup.
This means that i will be buying two clutch kits to build one, with a few components left over for the future.
Im already running Unitronic stage 3 DSG software, so we will see what happens...

[kelesha]

5 inner and 4 outer on every of both clutch packs ?
What discs you use and will use ? Stock or SSP ?
And are you have any DSG logs ? I am interested to see what clutch pressure you run with that stage 3 file ?

[sTT eV6]

I will be using new OEM clutch packs as there was a revision on the friction plate materials.
Steels are currently at the machine shop and will be built up next week and then the engine will go in, with the plumbing. Then we will see.
Clutch pressures aren't as important at the input and output shaft speeds.
Steve

[jm6001]

Wowwww interested to hear the outcome!

[kelesha]

I will be using new OEM clutch packs as there was a revision on the friction plate materials.

So, you are not so happy with SSP clutch pack ???

Steels are currently at the machine shop and will be built up next week and then the engine will go in, with the plumbing. Then we will see.

We already try solution with one more steel and one more friction disc on even of both packets, with stock clutch pressure you can hold around 500-550nm torque on crank.

Clutch pressures aren't as important at the input and output shaft speeds.
Steve

Why you think clutch pressures arent important ??? On DSG boxes clutch pressure is like pressure plate force on conventional clutches

[sTT eV6]

So, you are not so happy with SSP clutch pack ???

I wasn't happy with the old SSP clutch setup but i was pushing it beyond its limits.

[/QUOTE]
We already try solution with one more steel and one more friction disc on even of both packets, with stock clutch pressure you can hold around 500-550nm torque on crank.[/QUOTE]

I was running these numbers on a stock clutch and upgraded software but im pushing beyond this.

[/QUOTE]
Why you think clutch pressures arent important ??? On DSG boxes clutch pressure is like pressure plate force on conventional clutches[/QUOTE]

It doesn't matter what the oil pressure is at as long as you can maintain the same shaft speeds and if the speed differs then obv you need more pressure or a better friction material and or etched steels.

Im currently in talks with two companies that have got together to produce a better package than has been previously supplied for the 02M DSG and there may be a product release soon.
Steve

[sentari]

So what does is mean when HPA says (6:7 disk) Performance Clutch Pack? I have that coming with the Stage IV software. SSP is just about 100 miles from me, but I decided not to use them.

[sTT eV6]

HPA offer more friction plates and steels within the pack over the OEM amount.
It will increase the amount of friction generated over OEM.
More friction equals more heat though, so this has to be catered for, that's why I'm putting a DSG oil cooler in the equation.
Steve

[sentari]

But what do the numbers mean exactly? I don't get how you can just change the numbers... I should have watched when we pulled the clutch pack out to see it more closely.

[sTT eV6]

But what do the numbers mean exactly? I don't get how you can just change the numbers... I should have watched when we pulled the clutch pack out to see it more closely.

There is a certain amount of free play but the steels have to be ground down a certain amount.
Ask Marcel.. He should know.
Steve

[ZPrime]

How much torque are you dealing with here? Jeff (UM) has been holding 600nm on stock pack, I believe with room to spare... Are you open to trying other software loads?

[sTT eV6]

How much torque are you dealing with here? Jeff (UM) has been holding 600nm on stock pack, I believe with room to spare... Are you open to trying other software loads?

I'm trying to push upto 800nm and I am currently running 500nm with the software installed.
We're trying to overcome an engine torque calculation which is currently limiting the torque level the DSG is releasing.
We're getting there slowly but surely, however UM may be asked to help out if progress stops.
Steve

[kelesha]

We're trying to overcome an engine torque calculation which is currently limiting the torque level the DSG is releasing.

I dont understand that ? Can you explain what you mean exactly ?

[sentari]

The DSG unit will only allow so much TQ to be applied. So the trick is to "change its mind" through software (as long as the clutches can hold out).

[jezzag60]

I'm very interested in this. I have been considering using a DSG on my R32 turbo conversion (in to a corrado) and i'm very interested to know how far we can push this transmission.
Are you mapping the transmission yourself? I've just got access to some new hardware to read and write the DSG ecu and will start looking into the maps when I have some time.
I'm going to be looking towards 700nm and 750bhp..... is anyone managing this with a DSG trans?

[Jefnes3]

We are holding ~570-590 ftlbs to the wheels on 4 motion cars.
Above this cannot be done by software alone.

upgraded clutch plates are not needed.
I think my longest running car is on original plates
and ~2+ years daily driven R32 Turbo.


-Jeffrey Atwood
United Motorsport

[sTT eV6]

Jeff at UM is unleashing the potential on stock clutches and is getting some very good numbers.
I am trying to push closer to 700bhp and 700lb/ft so I have replaced the DSG oil pump and drive seals, voting basket seals and additional friction discs and pre-etched steels. The only thing I havnt done is added mechanical bracing..yet.

She will be up and running next week for testing once my ECU is back from Unitronic after the torque output signal to DSG ECU has been rescaled.

If results are poor then I will be contacting Matt at UM in the UK.
Steve

[jezzag60]

We are holding ~570-590 ftlbs to the wheels on 4 motion cars.
Above this cannot be done by software alone.

upgraded clutch plates are not needed.
I think my longest running car is on original plates
and ~2+ years daily driven R32 Turbo.


-Jeffrey Atwood
United Motorsport

So are clutch plates what is needed above this level or are there other parts in the box that fail?

[sentari]

I'd love to see the clutch pack and the pieces, information, related to what they do and what is upgraded etc... This is not a very well defined part, even by those who sell the upgrades.

[sTT eV6]

The profit in sales will keep the product info under wraps for the time being, but bascially if you can get away with just software then UM can help.
If you are pushing beyond just a software upgrade then additional friction plates and etched steels along with an uprated Basket seal is required.
Pushing big power creates additional heat so i will be introducing a newly developed oil cooler for the DSG to keep the temps down.
To incorporate extra friction plates and steels, the steels have to be evenly ground down whilst also taking some of the slack out of the stack, once built up.
HPA, Unitronic, UM and SSP are leading the way in DSG performance.

There are pictures of the clutch packs and seals in my build thread.
Steve

[Jefnes3]

So are clutch plates what is needed above this level or are there other parts in the box that fail?

Nothing immediately fails, if your engine supplies more torque than than you current system
is capable of, the clutches will slip. (same as a manual transmission car)

Parts fail when you continue to drive the car in this over loaded condition.

Changing plates does not solve slipping issues.

My opinion: I think the stock clutch plates will hold more.

If someone can show a need to go beyond ~800nm we will figure out how to get there.

-Jeffrey Atwood

[sTT eV6]

Nothing immediately fails, if your engine supplies more torque than than you current system
is capable of, the clutches will slip. (same as a manual transmission car)

Parts fail when you continue to drive the car in this over loaded condition.

Changing plates does not solve slipping issues.

My opinion: I think the stock clutch plates will hold more.

If someone can show a need to go beyond ~800nm we will figure out how to get there.

-Jeffrey Atwood

Thats the level im heading to and hopefully going beyond.
As long as the software is correct.
The clutch is man enough.
The gearbox casing doesn't explode.

Next week we will be testing what we have ended up with and if the software needs help i may be giving Matt a ring.
Steve

[kelesha]

................

Jeff what 1/4 mile times made these big power DSG cars what you done ?

[jezzag60]

Any updates??

[Jefnes3]

The 2L cars are 11.0-11.1
1/4 mile.

[sTT eV6]

Thought i would update this post.
After setting up my EBC and adjusting the throttle map (3D) pulled down between 2800 rpm and 4000 rpm to de-sensitise the pedal, control over boost is now night and day.
The resulting efforts of all involved have now allowed higher levels of power to be realised..
24 psi on 98 RON @ 5500 rpm

Unitronic still need to do some tweaks but we are getting there.
Steve