How did you decide to throw away your warranty....?

[JCN83]

You've just purchased a brand new car. It comes with a pretty rock-solid three (3) year warranty. Bumper to bumper. Your responsibility = brake pads, wiper blades, and tires. Their responsibility = everything.

So...you chip the car and instantly void the warranty on the single largest component in the vehicle (the engine)...?

Am I missing something here? I know certain things within the engine would be covered...but, generally speaking, the dealership is going to point to the ECU, tell you the car wasn't meant for so much power, and pass you a bill.

I love torque and HP as much as the next guy...but throwing away most of your new warranty seems irresponsible to me. I can see doing it after a couple of years or something - but right away?

Sell me on this! I would love to modify this car...but I just don't see how this is remotely a responsible decision!? How did you decided to pull the trigger / chip / etc. ??


PS - I'm a long-time enthusiast who has modded many-a-cars...but most of them have been older / out of warranty by the time I've gotten to major engine modifications. My B5 S4 is a full stage 3 car, making 425+hp. But the car is now 12 years old...so a voided warranty is obviously not an issue at this point

[jsausley]

Haha, okay.

This will be a fun thread.

[JCN83]

Hah, that's what I'm hoping for...

I'm really trying to figure out the mindset here.

[Rdurty2]

My dealership is my APR dealer. Still have my full warranty. They are very mod friendly and will still honor warranty for turbo'ed R32s.

[blackdemonGTI18T]

You've just purchased a brand new car. It comes with a pretty rock-solid three (3) year warranty. Bumper to bumper. Your responsibility = brake pads, wiper blades, and tires. Their responsibility = everything.

So...you chip the car and instantly void the warranty on the single largest component in the vehicle (the engine)...?

Am I missing something here? I know certain things within the engine would be covered...but, generally speaking, the dealership is going to point to the ECU, tell you the car wasn't meant for so much power, and pass you a bill.

I love torque and HP as much as the next guy...but throwing away most of your new warranty seems irresponsible to me. I can see doing it after a couple of years or something - but right away?

Sell me on this! I would love to modify this car...but I just don't see how this is remotely a responsible decision!? How did you decided to pull the trigger / chip / etc. ??


PS - I'm a long-time enthusiast who has modded many-a-cars...but most of them have been older / out of warranty by the time I've gotten to major engine modifications. My B5 S4 is a full stage 3 car, making 425+hp. But the car is now 12 years old...so a voided warranty is obviously not an issue at this point

engine, turbo and trans still good in your B5 S4?

[JCN83]

engine, turbo and trans still good in your B5 S4?

I knew this was coming

Yes...for the most part...but countless parts have been replaced along the way. $$$.

Additionally, my main concern would be...what happens if you're one of the rare exceptions out there that has a faulty motor. Like "lemon" faulty. You've chipped it...and...you're screwed.

That's why I can see modding it after a year or two...but in the first year it just seems so risky. You hardly know the stock motor.

Alas, everyone seems to take the leap of faith. Are there stories out there of people getting totally screwed like this? Maybe not. Hopefully that's the case!

[JCN83]

My dealership is my APR dealer. Still have my full warranty. They are very mod friendly and will still honor warranty for turbo'ed R32s.

Rad. I've spoken with the local dealership(s) and they've all told me the same thing. You pay to play...and the risk is up to you.

[Dutchmastr9]

I didnt void anything. However any failure of parts that can be directly related to a modification i put on would not be covered by my warranty anymore and would fall on me to be replaced.

also

[TLud]

You're right, there's a risk, but it's not the doomsday scenario you describe. To take it in the shorts, all three of the following must occur:

First, something on your drivetrain has to go wrong during the warranty period, which is actually fairly rare.

Second, your modification must have caused the problem, which is almost non-existent with a basic tune from a company like APR. That's why a number of VW dealers around the country are APR vendors.

Third, your dealer would have to be unwilling to work with you. If you have a good dealer near you, I don't see a serious risk on this front. If you don't, why'd you buy a VW in the first place? I go to a mod-friendly dealer with great customer service and I'm completely up front with them about everything I've done to my car. That honesty and relationship goes a long way toward determining how they treat you.

All that said, it's certainly not impossible to run into trouble, and I'm prepared to pay if need be. Heck, I've already paid the dealer once to resolve an issue caused by one of my mods.

[tgiletto]

Chipping doesn't "instantly void your warranty". Google "Magnuson-Moss Act".

Apparently you don't "love torque and HP as much as the next guy" which is why many are willing to assume some additional risk for added torque and HP. Besides, many would argue that the additional risk you are assuming by chipping is really not as high as you make it sound.

The "responsible decision" statement seems somewhat judgmental since it implies that if you mod your warrantied vehicle you're being irresponsible. I can easily argue that purchasing a $36k Golf R is an irresponsible decision when many, less expensive vehicles (with better gas mileage) are available. I guess it depends on what you want (car and mods) and what you're willing to pay for it.

[BigmountainVMD]

R is my first new car, and first one I've modded. Reasoning --> life is too short and if I can get some extra utils every time I drive my car by reasonably modding it, I'll do it.

Edit: And based on the title of this thread, you should definitely do a bit of searching on here...

[R tattack]

I've owned 9 Audi's in the past 16 years. This is my first VW. I've modified all of them while still under warranty. I've been fortunate, the only warranty work I've needed was for a washer pump on my B5S4. You rolls the dice and you takes your chances.

[blackdemonGTI18T]

take the risk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xth-j...feature=fvwrel

[Jay07GLI]

I have a good relationship with my dealer and I trust the APR software, so I'm not too worried about it. 2nd, if VW fought me on the issue, and it was THAT costly, I would lawyer up. They would rather pay me and keep a loyal customer happy than pay legal fees.

[TLud]

I have a good relationship with my dealer and I trust the APR software, so I'm not too worried about it. 2nd, if VW fought me on the issue, and it was THAT costly, I would lawyer up. They would rather pay me and keep a loyal customer happy than pay legal fees.

I agree with your first point, but not your second.

This is easy enough to say, but as a lawyer myself, trust me, this is not a road that you want to go down unless absolutely necessary. You ponying up with a lawyer isn't going to make the dealer change their mind overnight. In the meantime, you're without a working car and, unless your lawyer decides to take your case on a contingency basis, you're paying a retainer/legal fees, which are a lot more per hour than your VW tech. The burden of proof and the pressure for something to happen is all on you, not your dealer. And assuming the dealer doesn't want to fight it on sheer principle, at the end of the day, you'll probably just end up negotiating a deal splitting the baby.

[ignitionlive]

in my eyes i did not throw the warranty away, just potentially complicated it. I can live with that. And the enjoyment of the LOUD intake, tune and HPFP is worth it so far.

[riderbmx4]

i had no problem bring my car in for an oil change n plus i have a good relationship with a friend of mine n hes mother is the assistant service manager, n the owner of the dealership said to come in when ever u want, he said bring a few friends too n he will cover them with warranty work... n i was Revo stg one when i brought it in

[Dutchmastr9]

I agree with your first point, but not your second.

This is easy enough to say, but as a lawyer myself, trust me, this is not a road that you want to go down unless absolutely necessary. You ponying up with a lawyer isn't going to make the dealer change their mind overnight. In the meantime, you're without a working car and, unless your lawyer decides to take your case on a contingency basis, you're paying a retainer/legal fees, which are a lot more per hour than your VW tech. The burden of proof and the pressure for something to happen is all on you, not your dealer. And assuming the dealer doesn't want to fight it on sheer principle, at the end of the day, you'll probably just end up negotiating a deal splitting the baby.

also certain dealers may deny warranty work on modified cars just because they are dickhead dealers. but if you end up in a situation where you are lawyering up, your claim would most likely have been brought to vwoa. you would most likely be going against vwoa not the dealer and im sure they have a whole legal team just sitting around.

[JCN83]

thanks, all. i'm not calling anyone else here irresponsible...just wondering how most of you have rationalized a relatively risky decision.

I appreciate the info / input...and, believe it or not, I have searched for and read many, many threads on this topic. Not many of them deal with the thought that went into the decision to chip, tune, etc.

I appreciate the insight, guys.

[TLud]

Looking at it from a statistical perspective:

A modification (let's say a tune, for example) has an inherent value to you. In fact, you could probably put a monetary value on it, although that value would be different for everyone. For the purposes of this exercise, let's say that value is $1,000.

The likelihood of something major going wrong on your car and your warranty claim being denied is very small. It's certainly much less, but for the sake of argument, let's put the odds of a $5,000 repair not covered by warranty at 5% and the odds of a $10,000 repair not covered by warranty at 1%. In reality, there are a range of possible things that could go wrong on your car with varying levels of risk and varying associated costs, but the general principle applies regardless.

In this hypothetical, the total potential downside is (0.01 * $10,000) + (0.05 * $5,000) + (0.94 * $0) = $350, which is far less than $1,000 (the value of the enjoyment that you derive from the modification). Based on these numbers, only the most risk averse people will avoid modding a car on this ground.

This is an over-simplification in a number of respects, but it demonstrates the point that even when a potential negative outcome is costly, when the risk of that outcome is small and the reward for taking that risk is significant, most people will take the risk.

[GOT R32?]

OP there is an option that everyone either doesn't know about or doesn't have access to. It's going to an independent mechanic/service tech who is certified by VW to do warranty work. I do all of the cosmetic mods on my MKIV.:R32, but my guy does the high performance work. Because of this every time he works on my car and he notices a warranty issue he let's me know, does the work and files the paperwork with VWoA. Because he worked for VW for 10 years, and he still has a great relationship with them, I'm golden. He has a copy of my Extended Warranty on file so at anytime he could look up the language and know how to properly file for reimbursement.

This is why the ONLY thing I need the dealer for is to buy the car. After that they can take their over inflated prices, tricks, work for things you don't need, and non mod friendly attitude (for those dealerships who are non mod friendly) and shove it up their a$$!!! I will make one trip to the dealership to pick up my MKVI.:R and sign paperwork. After that its a middle finger up in the air as I smoke all 4 off the lot!!!!

[SOFLA]

This my 2nd VW and I am confident in VW and german engineering. I'm stage 1+ and fully believe this is how the car should have came from
Factory. When I want to get on it it's a racecar. If I want to be civilized I can be and it drives and rides just as good as my buddies 335i. I also have confidence in APR putting a reliable product out. **** only happens when your out of warranty.

[BigmountainVMD]

GOTR32, how do you go about finding a licensed VW tech that doesn't work for a dealer?

[Stereodude]

Rad. I've spoken with the local dealership(s) and they've all told me the same thing. You pay to play...and the risk is up to you.

That dealership must specialize in defrauding VW with bogus warranty claims.

Chipping doesn't "instantly void your warranty". Google "Magnuson-Moss Act".

You really think the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act covers mods especially chip tuning?

[GOT R32?]

GOTR32, how do you go about finding a licensed VW tech that doesn't work for a dealer?

It's very simple. You go to car shows, GTG's etc.... and you will find all sorts of enthusiasts. Talk and network with these people and find out where and who does their work (if they don't do it themselves). Then you ask that person if they are certified by VW to do warranty work. Another way is search on the interwebz for tech's in your area. Then call them and ask if they are certified. Don't for get about things like Yelp. You will find some postings from people and look to see if the mention warranty work.

[ToeBall]

The way I see it, you drive the car long enough for any actual problems to show. Beyond that, why wait? You have feel good coverage, great, but in the mean time you're driving less of a car than you actually want. If the mods are going to cause problems, don't do them, if they're not going to cause problems, there's no reason to wait. When it's new, the car is easier to work on, and since stuff wears together anyway, might as well let it wear in properly in the form it will spend the rest of its life in.

My question is, why defer the enjoyment you'll get from your car in the form you want it for a warranty which the dealer my not honor anyway, or even if they do, potentially do more damage than they fix, like they did on my R. Ultimately, you maight even luck out and find a mod-friendly dealership and it's a non-issue.

[VWPDX]

The way I see it, you drive the car long enough for any actual problems to show. Beyond that, why wait? You have feel good coverage, great, but in the mean time you're driving less of a car than you actually want.

It seems to me that serious drive train problems pop up in the first few months if you truly have a "lemon". For more piece of mind, it makes sense to wait 3-6 months and a few thousand miles. To each their own though.

[Army R32]

Ricky Bobby says "if u aint first ur last"
Its your money do what makes u happy accoring to the Mayans the world ends this year anyway

[Alive By time]

i **** on the coats

[MKIV-T-Rex]

It's not at all a responsible thing to do, but if you know the risks and can accept the worst possible outcome, pay to play. I'm going to wait until I get bored with stock and I've got enough miles that any major issues should be apparent, mines not even broken in yet, and then go stage 1. If I had a stage 3 B5 S4 I'm not sure I would feel the same though, I'd have a lot harder time voiding the warranty on my pretty fun daily driver to make it a little faster, but still slower than my weekend warrior BT beast.

[GOT R32?]

Stock is like virginity: Useless and should be gotten rid of as soon as possible!!! LOL!!

[VR6Now]

The burden of proof and the pressure for something to happen is all on you, not your dealer.

I'm not an attorney but I would like to take exception to a point you made. I copied a section of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act from house.gov and it's seems to contradict your statement regarding the burden of proof being with the consumer. My read is the manufacturer must show that the defect was due to damage not resulting from a defect or malfunction such as unreasonable use (tuning):

Waiver of standards
The performance of the duties under subsection (a) of this
section shall not be required of the warrantor if he can show that
the defect, malfunction, or failure of any warranted consumer
product to conform with a written warranty, was caused by damage
(not resulting from defect or malfunction) while in the possession
of the consumer, or unreasonable use (including failure to provide
reasonable and necessary maintenance).

Of course, as previously stated, VWoA would be the defendent in such cases and not the dealer since VWoA is the warrantor and the dealer isn't

[VR6Now]

but throwing away most of your new warranty seems irresponsible to me.

There are some people here who can afford to underwrite failures due to customer damage. For those who can and want to do so, who are you to suggest its irresponsible. If they can accept the responsibility for the cost and that's what they want, why should anyone else care? And before we pull out the, "If they can afford to replace a $10,000 engine, why would they buy a Golf R in the first place"; its becasue they can and they wanted to.

I don't tune not because I can't afford to underwrite failures with my own cash but I'd rather use the money elsewhere. Everyone has thier own priorities. For those who do tune and can't afford to pick up the pieces if it blows up in thier faces, I would tend to agree that is not a responsible act.

[speeedfrk]

Looking at it from a statistical perspective:

A modification (let's say a tune, for example) has an inherent value to you. In fact, you could probably put a monetary value on it, although that value would be different for everyone. For the purposes of this exercise, let's say that value is $1,000.

The likelihood of something major going wrong on your car and your warranty claim being denied is very small. It's certainly much less, but for the sake of argument, let's put the odds of a $5,000 repair not covered by warranty at 5% and the odds of a $10,000 repair not covered by warranty at 1%. In reality, there are a range of possible things that could go wrong on your car with varying levels of risk and varying associated costs, but the general principle applies regardless.

In this hypothetical, the total potential downside is (0.01 * $10,000) + (0.05 * $5,000) + (0.94 * $0) = $350, which is far less than $1,000 (the value of the enjoyment that you derive from the modification). Based on these numbers, only the most risk averse people will avoid modding a car on this ground.

This is an over-simplification in a number of respects, but it demonstrates the point that even when a potential negative outcome is costly, when the risk of that outcome is small and the reward for taking that risk is significant, most people will take the risk.

ok, so i dont know if its just getting late and im tired or what, but that post just made me feel pretty stupid.

[TLud]

I'm not an attorney but I would like to take exception to a point you made. I copied a section of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act from house.gov and it's seems to contradict your statement regarding the burden of proof being with the consumer. My read is the manufacturer must show that the defect was due to damage not resulting from a defect or malfunction such as unreasonable use (tuning):

Waiver of standards
The performance of the duties under subsection (a) of this
section shall not be required of the warrantor if he can show that
the defect, malfunction, or failure of any warranted consumer
product to conform with a written warranty, was caused by damage
(not resulting from defect or malfunction) while in the possession
of the consumer, or unreasonable use (including failure to provide
reasonable and necessary maintenance).

Of course, as previously stated, VWoA would be the defendent in such cases and not the dealer since VWoA is the warrantor and the dealer isn't

I don't want to derail this thread with legal talk, but the consumer, as the plaintiff, would have the burden of proof in asserting a breach of warranty claim. If the consumer satisfies that burden, the burden shifts to the warrantor to establish the defense that you cited. As a consumer, you would also bring suit against the dealer under other theories as well.


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