FRS/GT86/BRZ vs Cayman

[Khyron]

Would have posted in a previous thread but they've turned into 20 page ^&%* measuring contests.

And I'll pre-empt a few comments:

-Too slow
-No torks
-No pass on highway, will dead
-Should have been 250hp/2200lbs/20K

Have fun!

[2.0T_Convert]

More of a drivers car than my GTI. Even if that isn't what I want in a sporty daily I respect Toyota much more for building this

That said I am a bit skeptical about the FT-86 > Cayman.......

[Khyron]

PDF (better res) for actually reading:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/64402414/Wheels-sml.pdf

[teklord69]

What BS..Comparing an FR-S to a Cayman is like comparing Kelly Clarkson to Kate Upton. No competition.. and why even bother using the Cayman as its benchmark since its not any faster than a Miata. That magazine conclusion is that the FR-S>Cayman?? Biggest BS I have read lately..some of these magazine are very suspect in their reviews, makes you wonder how much they are getting from Toyota.

[AKADriver]

I was waiting for someone to actually make the direct comparison, rather than just alluding to the Cayman.

Of course it's all subjective, but this sort of thing is a bigger coup than the numbers-based GT-R vs. 911 Turbo rivalry for that very reason. Porsches have always been the subjective choice, the "soul" choice.

[Aperture]

A lot of cars beat the Cayman. I'm sure a Wrangler can handle off-roading better than a G500, but you don't see anyone cross-shopping them.

[Fritz27]

It's pretty obvious that you can't trust reviews unless it says that the car sucks. Ergo, this review is not trustworthy.

[Subwoofers]

It's pretty obvious that you can't trust reviews unless it says that the car sucks. Ergo, this review is not trustworthy.

This.

Where is Hawk?

[Tuneman7]

Love the pic of the 86 with the LFA. There just needs to be Supra replacement in there somewhere in between.

[Jrod511]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. First I was skeptical the Toyobaru would exist, then I waited with tepid interest, and now I like the car (no experience with one, so not about to sing the song) but, come on, this **** happens every time a new car comes out. Didn't the 370Z bash the Cayman's brains in when it was new and then evvvvvvvvvvvvveryone readily admitted it's heavy, chintzy, and doesn't really perform all that well?

I'm sensing much sensationalist-ishtbull going on here.

[Son]

tl;dr. Did they concentrate on handling, steering, gearbox, etc. things only? Because I imagined the Cayman with more power would perform better in the straight line. Either way, compared to the Cayman, the GT86 is gaudy inside and out. That, plus, a Porsche is a Porsche and a Toyota is a Toyota, so I wouldn't give the GT another look if I was in the market. Naturally the Porsche is more expensive. Still, if my budget was limited to what the GT costs, I'd still buy something else.

Edit: WHAT, the Cayman is 115k AUD and the Toyota is 38k? Quite the difference...

[hipster.]

The FRS/86/BRZ debate may end TCL as we know it.

As many have argued it's not perfect, it's not a powerhouse, it doesn't even come with good tires...

However nearly the whole CL would argue there needs to be a RWD "enthusiast" car. And how dare the corporate Automotive conspiracy kill off RWD cars? How dare they kill off the manual gear box??!!!

Yet when major companies hear the cry of the "enthusiast" for more RWD, and more MT, and more tuner friendly motors... then the toilet poised, magazine at hand, numbers-racer show their ugly head.

They'll quote TQ all day, and HP for weeks. They'll compare this review to that review. They'll say that the positive reviews are more damning than the negative reviews. Despite both reviews being so heavy handed to both extremes. They'll ignore what they've wanted, just so they can damn such a weak attempt to charm the enthusiast. The enthusiast of yore that lies inside of them.

It baffles my mind to see so many TCL users try to damn this car from the get-go. To damn a car that answers so many demands of the "enthusiasts" while answering demands of the "fickle" seems so ludicrous to me.

Here is a car that is RWD mated with a MT and is seemingly tuner friendly. Not only that, it is also sub $30k brand new, AND has promising MPG numbers. Yet so many people here want it to fail for no more than some personal vendetta against another username. It seems so silly.

Here is a partnership of two great tuner-friendly companies to give the masses what they've been asking for, only to have that answer shoved back down their throat.

No wonder car manufacturers aren't making "enthusiast" friendly cars any more.

Enthusiasts have turned into a bunch of snobs. Snobs that will always have a demographic that isn't happy; that will nitpick and pull apart all efforts and decisions made on their behalf. No wonder these manufacturers make cars that are boring and that will sell to the mainstream.

Why would a company try to make anything for a group of self destructive know-it-alls who are reminiscent of the 80's-movie prom queen...someone who has everything and wants it all.

[RogueTDI]

In! Haha.

[leaftye]

-No pass on highway, will dead

Fine on highway, but up a hill? You dead.

[RogueTDI]

Well said hipster. I think there are many enthusiasts excited for this car, myself included. As with most things, the very vocal minority yells the loudest...

[E34M50]

The FRS/86/BRZ debate may end TCL as we know it.

As many have argued it's not perfect, it's not a powerhouse, it doesn't even come with good tires...

However nearly the whole CL would argue there needs to be a RWD "enthusiast" car. And how dare the corporate Automotive conspiracy kill off RWD cars? How dare they kill off the manual gear box??!!!

Yet when major companies hear the cry of the "enthusiast" for more RWD, and more MT, and more tuner friendly motors... then the toilet poised, magazine at hand, numbers-racer show their ugly head.

They'll quote TQ all day, and HP for weeks. They'll compare this review to that review. They'll say that the positive reviews are more damning than the negative reviews. Despite both reviews being so heavy handed to both extremes. They'll ignore what they've wanted, just so they can damn such a weak attempt to charm the enthusiast. The enthusiast of yore that lies inside of them.

It baffles my mind to see so many TCL users try to damn this car from the get-go. To damn a car that answers so many demands of the "enthusiasts" while answering demands of the "fickle" seems so ludicrous to me.

Here is a car that is RWD mated with a MT and is seemingly tuner friendly. Not only that, it is also sub $30k brand new, AND has promising MPG numbers. Yet so many people here want it to fail for no more than some personal vendetta against another username. It seems so silly.

Here is a partnership of two great tuner-friendly companies to give the masses what they've been asking for, only to have that answer shoved back down their throat.

No wonder car manufacturers aren't making "enthusiast" friendly cars any more.

Enthusiasts have turned into a bunch of snobs. Snobs that will always have a demographic that isn't happy; that will nitpick and pull apart all efforts and decisions made on their behalf. No wonder these manufacturers make cars that are boring and that will sell to the mainstream.

Why would a company try to make anything for a group of self destructive know-it-alls who are reminiscent of the 80's-movie prom queen...someone who has everything and wants it all.

selling cars is a business?

demand...supply...

[PhilHVW]

Great article, thanks for posting.

The Cayman and FR-S are exactly the two cars that are at the top of my list. The decision might be even harder in a couple years (when I actually expect to pull the trigger), since the FR-S will be available used by then.

[XiaoNio]

For what it's worth, some earlier reviews were saying the FR-S was the best drive south of a Cayman. It's also been said that an Evora is the best drive south of an F458. And of course there's the GTR/Z06 vs. 911.

Bang for the buck benchmarking happens all the time between cars. It also happens between stereo equipment, TV's, wines, and pretty much... anything at all. I don't see why this is such a big deal.

[DJMRDARK]

More of a drivers car than my GTI. Even if that isn't what I want in a sporty daily I respect Toyota much more for building this

That said I am a bit skeptical about the FT-86 > Cayman.......

I agree. Sorry but this is magazine bullsh!t. This is the old "pump and dump" in action. They pump up the new hot thing on the block with otherworldly superlatives, and then dump on it later in the year.

If the BRZ, et al is slower than the V6 Mustang and Megane....it is NOT faster than a Cayman.

I'm certain this is a great handling car, in line with the Elise, Evora, Miata, RX-8 and Cayman. But lets be real. But the overall better package is still the Cayman.

[amdmaxx]

thanks!

PDF (better res) for actually reading:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/64402414/Wheels-sml.pdf

[XiaoNio]

If the BRZ, et al is slower than the V6 Mustang and Megane....it is NOT faster than a Cayman.

This presupposes that faster = better. I'm not going to say that the FR-S is the 2nd coming or anything, but I think as a package it pushes a lot of the right buttons.

[AKADriver]

Didn't the 370Z bash the Cayman's brains in when it was new and then evvvvvvvvvvvvveryone readily admitted it's heavy, chintzy, and doesn't really perform all that well?

Eh, the 370Z is a fantastic car that I'd buy over a Cayman in a heartbeat. About the only glaring flaw in the 370Z is a lack of adequate brake cooling. It's lighter and less chintzy than the 350Z.

[Mike!]

No wonder car manufacturers aren't making "enthusiast" friendly cars any more.

Enthusiasts have turned into a bunch of snobs. Snobs that will always have a demographic that isn't happy; that will nitpick and pull apart all efforts and decisions made on their behalf. No wonder these manufacturers make cars that are boring and that will sell to the mainstream.

Why would a company try to make anything for a group of self destructive know-it-alls who are reminiscent of the 80's-movie prom queen...someone who has everything and wants it all.

I see what you're trying to say, but at the same time, welcome to the internet. Every form of enthusiast site on the internet suffers from the nitpickers, the impossible to please, and the fanboys, but it hasn't stopped movies, comics, games, cars, cameras, or anything else from being made.

Recommended reading:

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/03/hammerforum-com

Give it a chance, it takes a while to pick up

[AKADriver]

Here is a partnership of two great tuner-friendly companies to give the masses what they've been asking for, only to have that answer shoved back down their throat.

At the end of the day, the press for the car has been hyper-positive and the pre-orders have exceeded expectation with some Subaru dealers already having sold their allotment of BRZs for the year and some Scion dealers, who have a slightly larger allotment, being sold out through the summer.

There will always be big-talking forum bashers. I joined this forum when the WRX was new to the US, in a very similar situation - people shouted for years how they wanted a real turbo performance car from Japan and not the neutered 2.5RS, 240SX, etc. Tons of people here bashed the car for being "cheap feeling" and "overpriced" and made all sorts of justifications for why the MkIV GTI was a better buy because it had "soul". Meanwhile the press was absolutely falling over themselves to praise the WRX and sales ended up doubling expectations that first year.

Like all flavors of the week I don't think that means this car will replace the Camry as Toyota's main business, but saying "nobody cares" when every thread turns into a 20 page crapfest and "nobody will buy it" when a few people here already have is ridiculous.

[Smigelski]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. First I was skeptical the Toyobaru would exist, then I waited with tepid interest, and now I like the car (no experience with one, so not about to sing the song) but, come on, this **** happens every time a new car comes out. Didn't the 370Z bash the Cayman's brains in when it was new and then evvvvvvvvvvvvveryone readily admitted it's heavy, chintzy, and doesn't really perform all that well?

I'm sensing much sensationalist-ishtbull going on here.

Not really. Of the articles that I've read, they still chose the Cayman.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/co...ayman_s_page_3

Quoting the last paragraphs:

So did the Cayman S win this battle? According to our ratings and test numbers, it sent the 370Z back home. But is the Cayman S worth nearly twice the price of a 370Z? Based purely on performance, no. The lap times are pretty close and the handling and acceleration numbers relatively comparable. If you had to pinch pennies to afford one of these cars, the Z makes by far more sense. But if you're well-off, and put an intangible value on overall refinement, powerplant/chassis harmony and an illustrious motorsports legacy, well, the choice is easy.

http://www.motivemag.com/pub/feature...Cayman_S.shtml

Nissan set out to build a better Z and publicly set the Cayman S as an early target. The 370Z doesn't carry the Porsche's swagger or the social status that comes with owning a sports car bearing the crest, but the two cars are near equals in practically every category. Since its inception, the Cayman has been regarded as one of the most balanced sports car platforms ever designed, and for Nissan to nip so close at that car's butt for half the price ($60,200 for a Cayman S, and about $33,000 for a 370Z with the sport package, which includes the bigger brakes, a limited-slip diff, bigger wheels, SyncroRev, and an aero kit) is quite a statement. The Cayman is a slightly better sports car, but the 370Z is a slightly better everyday car. And I don't have to tell you it's one hell of a bargain

And here's something from EVO: http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/carg...n_370z_gt.html


On a personal note, if I could afford the Cayman and get a truck, I'd buy that car over the BRZ, hands down.

[Smigelski]

If the BRZ, et al is slower than the V6 Mustang and Megane....it is NOT faster than a Cayman.

No one said it was faster than a Cayman. In fact, the article states the exact opposite. The article also quotes Tada in saying that the car is not about the numbers, and that they didn't set any performance targets.

[AKADriver]

Not to say Porsche's motorsports legacy isn't probably as good as it gets, but c'mon, R&T...



Some 55 years of selling cars in the US, 50 years of racing, and people still insist that Nissan and Toyota don't have motorsports pedigree or heritage.

[MK5CNY]

So which one will rot in the ground first? I didn't see that mentioned, and it is on everyone's criteria list for a new car.

[seadoo2006]

So, I'm confused, why is the E30 M3 praised on this site as the pinnacle of RWD sports coupes when
holy god in heaven the BRZ/FRS has MORE HP, WEIGHS LESS, and handles BETTER than the E30 ...

The doublespeak on this site is absolutely astounding ...

[Fritz27]

I agree. Sorry but this is magazine bullsh!t. This is the old "pump and dump" in action. They pump up the new hot thing on the block with otherworldly superlatives, and then dump on it later in the year.

If the BRZ, et al is slower than the V6 Mustang and Megane....it is NOT faster than a Cayman.

I'm certain this is a great handling car, in line with the Elise, Evora, Miata, RX-8 and Cayman. But lets be real. But the overall better package is still the Cayman.

Wow, the car that's the overall better package comes in at three times the cost. What's next, you're going to tell me that the Mercedes G500 is a better overall package than a Jeep Wrangler? You're really stepping out on a limb there.

[GoRacers]

What BS..Comparing an FR-S to a Cayman is like comparing Kelly Clarkson to Kate Upton. No competition.. and why even bother using the Cayman as its benchmark since its not any faster than a Miata. .

You don't read what you type, do you?

[Fritz27]

So, I'm confused, why is the E30 M3 praised on this site as the pinnacle of RWD sports coupes when
holy god in heaven the BRZ/FRS has MORE HP, WEIGHS LESS, and handles BETTER than the E30 ...

The doublespeak on this site is absolutely astounding ...

Is the E30 M3 made by Toyota?

There's your answer.

[patrickvr6]

Is the E30 M3 made by Toyota?

There's your answer.

Again with this ?

Comparing the FRBRScion to the original M3 is nonsense. One was a low production homologation special that had bespoke bodywork, engine, and suspension. It was designed for the track and created it's reputation there. The only reason it was sold to the public was to make it legal for competition.

The one metric they can be compared on is numbers and as you have told us many many times the FRBRScion isn't about the numbers so stop using specs as leverage for your constant Toyota apologies. Your argument is weaker than it ever has been in this case because your precious dear Toyota brand doesn't even build this car, Subaru builds it and Toyota badges it.

[Air-over-water]

No one said it was faster than a Cayman. In fact, the article states the exact opposite. The article also quotes Tada in saying that the car is not about the numbers, and that they didn't set any performance targets.

You actually expect the idiotic number-quoters to actually READ anything?
They just scan for buzz words, graphs, and numbers.. no actual reading comprehension or brain function.

[seadoo2006]

Again with this ?

Comparing the FRBRScion to the original M3 is nonsense. One was a low production homologation special that had bespoke bodywork, engine, and suspension. It was designed for the track and created it's reputation there. The only reason it was sold to the public was to make it legal for competition.

The one metric they can be compared on is numbers and as you have told us many many times the FRBRScion isn't about the numbers so stop using specs as leverage for your constant Toyota apologies. Your argument is weaker than it ever has been in this case because your precious dear Toyota brand doesn't even build this car, Subaru builds it and Toyota badges it.

Oh bull crap ... it was no more rare than an R32 or a 20thAE ... get off your high horse ... the E30 M3 was a great car and so is this new BRZ/FRS ...