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    Thread: Brake Bias

    1. Member Light on Fuel's Avatar
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      06-04-2012 02:10 PM #26
      Quote Originally Posted by Roadkilled78 View Post
      Not seeing a mk4 gti in the results...did you make it out to that event? How'd it go with the new suspension?
      I didn't make it out. I was hearing a front end clunk whenever I went over a speed bump or loaded up the front at low speeds. I checked my LCA bushings and saw that they were completely shot.
      So I used that day to replace both LCA's. As much as I wanted to hit up the event, I decided that it might be a really bad idea considering the condition they were in. Also, I'm registered for a morning autoX school this Friday 8th, followed by an afternoon event. Since that means I'd be getting 50-60 runs in total for the day, I had to sacrifice the last event to get my car sorted for this Friday. Now, I can go to the event having a very crisp handling car that I can be confident in.


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    2. Member Light on Fuel's Avatar
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      06-09-2012 09:03 AM #27
      So I did the school and event yesterday. I got a trophy for 3rd place which isn't too bad when you consider that everyone in my class were on slicks! But now I'm thinking that the thread should be renamed to "how to get the car to rotate." lol

      The new suspension and tires felt great and there were several runs where I could feel the rear rotate perfectly, which is a very rewarding feeling. But there's one big problem: I'm not sure "how" I got it to rotate so well sometimes and not others. I don't think that I fully understand the physics involved in getting the rear to rotate. If you look at my times I was very consistent, enough so that I got the highest consistency points in my class. But I wasn't consistently getting the rear to rotate when I wanted it to. Any advice?

      Also, I noticed several times that when the front was loaded up under hard cornering, when I would try to give it some juice, it felt almost as if the trans was binding up. Was this because I was asking too much of the car in those instances; is it because I need a better diff; or is it just crappy driving? Thx.


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      Last edited by Light on Fuel; 06-09-2012 at 01:22 PM.

    3. 07-04-2012 08:45 AM #28
      Were you getting the car to rotate well in certain corners and not in others, or was it different run-to-run in the same corners? If it was in different corners then it's possible that the pavement in those areas had more/less grip or perhaps had some gravel/debris on them (not sure if the event swept the track beforehand, we used to when testing our Formula SAE car at school)

      Did the car's rotation change somewhat continually through the day? It's possible that the track temp was changing and effecting grip.

      Did you wind up getting a tire gauge? What were your readings like?

      Take my comments with a grain of salt, as you may actually have more experience than me

      I'm not sure what you meant by your transmission binding, but maybe you want to invest in a stiffer transmmssion bushing? I got the ECS dogbone bushing upgrade a few weeks ago and really like it except when I'm idling, and especially when idling with AC on.
      Last edited by 2003 golfer; 07-04-2012 at 08:48 AM.

    4. Member Light on Fuel's Avatar
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      07-04-2012 12:49 PM #29
      Thanks for the reply. I Have less than 6 events under my belt, so I will check for some of the above mentioned conditions on my next outing (which isn't for at least another month since I currently have a broken foot).

      I bought a good gauge and tried different pressures throughout the day at the school. I settled on 48psi on the rear tires: I didn't land on anything conclusive for the front tires though. But they were still rolling a bit on the sidewalls at 46psi. So I'm not sure what to do about that.

      It terms of getting the rear to rotate; it was always a hit or miss affair. For example: the rear would rotate beautifully through the first slalom on one run, but not every run, or the rear rotates well through turn two sometimes, but not all the time. I always check my pressures between runs, so it's not due to changing tire pressure. Which leads me to believe that it may be my lack of experience/knowledge with the physics behind the car.



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    5. Member babarber's Avatar
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      07-04-2012 10:31 PM #30
      what kind of tires are you using? because if they cant hold up at that kind of pressure then something is wrong
      if your running really high performance street tires like hankook rs-3 or toyo r1r then you should be running mid 30s front low 30s rear mid 30s as well in the rear if you want a bit less grip for rotation
      if running regular street tires you want up 30s to low 40s rear and low 40s front

      mark your tire sidewall with chalk, etc
      you should be rubbing the chalk off down to the tip of this triangle
      Quote Originally Posted by G3T3I7 View Post
      because race springs
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      TCL isn't car enthusiasts. It's a forum for 40 year old guys to brag about their 2007 Hyundai Sonata. And to talk meaningless sh*t on anything VW

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      07-04-2012 10:44 PM #31
      Stock suspension stuff may need 40- 50 front and up to 55 rear. If the car is inconsistent, you are probably gettting on the edge , per above post.
      Or you may be trail braking into some sections only part of the time. Trail braking and/ or left foot brake can loossen up the car enough to go faster.
      Sometime the car needs more air for the "turn around" , if your track has one. Many solo courses have a single pin of of some sort and really hurts the outside tire. , add air for this turn ,as it may help and long slow turn.

      Optimal air may not be the same for all of the tires., or even left to right.
      The http://www.fwdracingguide.com/ Money back guarantee!, You can go 100$ faster with this 20$ guide
      Mike and Michael Ogren, Protech Racing,25 yrs of Racing VWs. mogren@tampabay.rr.com[/email], 352.428/8983
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      07-04-2012 11:47 PM #32
      I'm running Hankook V12's. I used Moroso Race Write and marked all four corners. The rears were fine in terms of rolling onto the sidewalls. It was the front that rolled past the triangle and across both those raised lines beneath it. At that point, I raised the pressure up to 46psi at the fronts.

      I considered the idea that it may be a setup issue, but if that were the case then I wouldn't be getting the rear to rotate at all. I think that it's down to my driving and lack of consistency.

      So I'm wondering: how should I be entering a turn and/or slalom? What are some the rule of thumbs to keep in mind when driving a FWD car with a rear beam? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


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      07-07-2012 12:39 AM #33
      when entering a turn i brake hard right before the turn then gradually let off the brakes during turn in this puts alot of the load on the front tires which helps the front grip and the rear rotate

      in slaloms i stay as close to the cones as possible so i dont have to make big turns which will quickly overwhelm the fwd
      Quote Originally Posted by G3T3I7 View Post
      because race springs
      Quote Originally Posted by Vegeta Gti View Post
      i love sacks
      Quote Originally Posted by bryangb View Post
      TCL isn't car enthusiasts. It's a forum for 40 year old guys to brag about their 2007 Hyundai Sonata. And to talk meaningless sh*t on anything VW

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      07-11-2012 07:33 PM #34
      Quote Originally Posted by babarber View Post
      when entering a turn i brake hard right before the turn then gradually let off the brakes during turn in this puts alot of the load on the front tires which helps the front grip and the rear rotate

      in slaloms i stay as close to the cones as possible so i dont have to make big turns which will quickly overwhelm the fwd
      I'll try that at my next event: Which probably won't be for at least another month unfortunately due to my broken right foot. But that's a really good tip.

      I had tried doing something like that at my last event but found that my brakes were slightly inadequate. I worked the first heat and noticed during my run group that it was taking me a lot longer to drop speed at the corner I had been working than the previous cars had needed. I initially thought that it may be that I had more speed than them, but that's not the case cos I'm sure some of the Evo's were carrying way more speed than I was. So I may try getting Hawk pads and braided lines front and rear.


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      07-11-2012 07:55 PM #35
      im running stock brake setup with oreilly's 20$ pads i want to upgrade the pads but the courses we run on are sealed asphalt and is very slick as far as track surfaces go so even with my star spec tires brakes keep up with the tires grip
      Quote Originally Posted by G3T3I7 View Post
      because race springs
      Quote Originally Posted by Vegeta Gti View Post
      i love sacks
      Quote Originally Posted by bryangb View Post
      TCL isn't car enthusiasts. It's a forum for 40 year old guys to brag about their 2007 Hyundai Sonata. And to talk meaningless sh*t on anything VW

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      07-11-2012 10:30 PM #36
      Quote Originally Posted by babarber View Post
      im running stock brake setup with oreilly's 20$ pads i want to upgrade the pads but the courses we run on are sealed asphalt and is very slick as far as track surfaces go so even with my star spec tires brakes keep up with the tires grip
      Wow, stock? I don't think I can continue to run stock. It seems that I have to get hard on the brakes and for a very long time whereas other cars only need to quickly jab the brakes on the very same turn. I was told that it may be because the car is so nosy-heavy (VR6).


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    12. Member babarber's Avatar
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      07-13-2012 07:52 PM #37
      my car is one of the lightest mkIV the 1.8t wolfsburg edition plus i removed some weight and its now floating around 2800lbs so that may help but like i said the surfaces we run on aren't exactly idea
      Quote Originally Posted by G3T3I7 View Post
      because race springs
      Quote Originally Posted by Vegeta Gti View Post
      i love sacks
      Quote Originally Posted by bryangb View Post
      TCL isn't car enthusiasts. It's a forum for 40 year old guys to brag about their 2007 Hyundai Sonata. And to talk meaningless sh*t on anything VW

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      07-26-2012 10:16 PM #38
      I have an event coming up this Sunday: My first in over a month after breaking my foot. I'm going to try all that was suggested on here. Thanks so much for the input.


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      07-27-2012 11:20 AM #39
      Quote Originally Posted by Light on Fuel View Post
      It seems that I have to get hard on the brakes and for a very long time whereas other cars only need to quickly jab the brakes on the very same turn. I was told that it may be because the car is so nosy-heavy (VR6).


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      Have you stood on the brakes hard enough to activate ABS/lock the wheels? If not, have you had an instructor drive the car or did one ride with you during the school?

      Threshold braking is a much, much more rapid deceleration than you are used to on the street. A couple of new people I have instructed and one friend who was bedding in pads required a fair amount of urging to get beyond what they considered 'hard' braking that was actually quite mild for an autocross situation.
      Quote Originally Posted by Hogan View Post
      What kind of ass backwards world do you live in where your Miata is broken and your Alfa is your reliable source of transportation?

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      07-27-2012 01:00 PM #40
      I did have an instructor with me during a few of my first runs, but he focused more on my steering input than anything else.

      To be honest, I didn't get into the ABS at all. So now that you mention that, it's something that I really should've kept in mind: In retrospect, it'll probably shorten my braking distance significantly. I've read about threshold braking but I never thought to apply it in an autoX situation. But it makes perfect sense. Rookie mistake I guess. I will definitely keep that at the forefront of my mind while walking/driving the course. Thanks so much!


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      Last edited by Light on Fuel; 07-27-2012 at 01:02 PM.

    16. Member Roadkilled78's Avatar
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      07-27-2012 02:17 PM #41
      Quote Originally Posted by Light on Fuel View Post
      I will definitely keep that at the forefront of my mind while walking/driving the course. Thanks so much!


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      Along with that, the bigger picture to keep in mind is that - at least in principle - you should be either hard on the gas or hard on the brake. Coasting accomplishes nothing. Leisurely braking is about the same thing, just a waste of time. You could have waited longer to brake, and then done so more aggressively.

      Full disclosure: after doing this for years and years, I still have trouble doing what I said above And if I suddenly drop time on my last run its almost always because I realized I could brake later but harder. And of course there are times where coasting or part throttle is appropriate. But not as often as most people do it, myself included.

      Don't be afraid to activate ABS as you learn your braking limits. It's much less costly of a mistake than locking up r-comps and flat-spotting them.
      Quote Originally Posted by Hogan View Post
      What kind of ass backwards world do you live in where your Miata is broken and your Alfa is your reliable source of transportation?

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      07-28-2012 09:16 AM #42
      Quote Originally Posted by Roadkilled78 View Post
      Along with that, the bigger picture to keep in mind is that - at least in principle - you should be either hard on the gas or hard on the brake. Coasting accomplishes nothing. Leisurely braking is about the same thing, just a waste of time. You could have waited longer to brake, and then done so more aggressively.

      Full disclosure: after doing this for years and years, I still have trouble doing what I said above And if I suddenly drop time on my last run its almost always because I realized I could brake later but harder. And of course there are times where coasting or part throttle is appropriate. But not as often as most people do it, myself included.

      Don't be afraid to activate ABS as you learn your braking limits. It's much less costly of a mistake than locking up r-comps and flat-spotting them.
      I was just looking over some of the previous runs that I recorded and I can see some sections where I did coast to line myself up for the following section. I also noticed areas where I could have done as mentioned and get into the braking up to the ABS. So I know I have some work to do. The tough part is that I want far off from jumping from 3rd place (where I finished out the day) to first place. Now granted, the guys in 1st & 2nd were running on slicks, but I think if I had done as recommended, I could have closed that gap significantly. But, there is always tomorrow to try it out. I'm not beating myself up to much considering that it was only my 4th event an those other guys, including the ones I beat, have been autoX'ing for several years a piece. Thanks again. I'll post my (hopefully good) results after tomorrow. I only wish that Tap-a-Talk would let me post videos for some more critiquing.


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      07-31-2012 02:43 PM #43
      So I ran the event and it went really well. The only unfortunate part is that there was only one spot to try threshold braking. PCA events, I've noticed, usually sets up long, sweeping courses.

      Either way, I got the rear to rotate really well an I was able to beat all the other GTi's and my cousin's 3.8l Genesis Coupe.

      I'm away for August, but I'll be running again in Sept and will most likely have new questions. Thanks to all who gave valuable input, it was greatly appreciated.


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      08-18-2012 05:36 PM #44
      Anyone have any suggestions on how stiff I should set the dampers up front? I have an event tomorrow so any help would be greatly appreciated.


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      08-18-2012 11:31 PM #45
      what shocks what springs?
      Quote Originally Posted by G3T3I7 View Post
      because race springs
      Quote Originally Posted by Vegeta Gti View Post
      i love sacks
      Quote Originally Posted by bryangb View Post
      TCL isn't car enthusiasts. It's a forum for 40 year old guys to brag about their 2007 Hyundai Sonata. And to talk meaningless sh*t on anything VW

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      08-19-2012 12:10 AM #46
      Quote Originally Posted by babarber View Post
      what shocks what springs?
      Koni coilovers (1150's). I've been running with both front and rear at full. I'm wondering if I should dial down the stiffness at the front.


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    22. Member babarber's Avatar
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      08-21-2012 08:06 PM #47
      Quote Originally Posted by Light on Fuel View Post
      Koni coilovers (1150's). I've been running with both front and rear at full. I'm wondering if I should dial down the stiffness at the front.


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      that would depend on behavior on turn in does it feel like the car is loosing grip at the front too soon?
      Quote Originally Posted by G3T3I7 View Post
      because race springs
      Quote Originally Posted by Vegeta Gti View Post
      i love sacks
      Quote Originally Posted by bryangb View Post
      TCL isn't car enthusiasts. It's a forum for 40 year old guys to brag about their 2007 Hyundai Sonata. And to talk meaningless sh*t on anything VW

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      08-23-2012 07:44 AM #48
      Quote Originally Posted by babarber View Post
      that would depend on behavior on turn in does it feel like the car is loosing grip at the front too soon?
      Turn in was crisp. It didn't loose grip too soon but it was understeering starting at the apex and through the exit on long (fish hook, type) turns.

      I had the fronts set 1/2 a turn below full stiff. Would further lowering stiffness at the front reduce some of that mid corner understeer?

      I also noticed that the temps on my front tires were way hotter on the inside shoulders than the middle and outer shoulders. I have a suspicion that the place that did my alignment screwed up. I think they may have set the toe too far out or dialed in too much neg. camber. Would either play that much of a significant role in the mid/exit understeer.
      Thanks again.


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      08-23-2012 01:54 PM #49
      shock settings have very little to do with mid corner behavior look elsewhere for a solution to your problem
      Quote Originally Posted by G3T3I7 View Post
      because race springs
      Quote Originally Posted by Vegeta Gti View Post
      i love sacks
      Quote Originally Posted by bryangb View Post
      TCL isn't car enthusiasts. It's a forum for 40 year old guys to brag about their 2007 Hyundai Sonata. And to talk meaningless sh*t on anything VW

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      09-30-2012 10:49 AM #50
      Quote Originally Posted by babarber View Post
      shock settings have very little to do with mid corner behavior look elsewhere for a solution to your problem
      After doing some more investigation, I realized that it was my ride height that was causing me to understeer.

      At an event, I noticed that my inside shoulders were getting too hot (20* more than outsides). I also noticed that even at 50psi, my front tires were rolling. I looked at my LCA's and realized that they had a major angle to them (car set too low). I (foolishly) didn't check the work of the people who performed my alignment and were suppossed to adjust the ride height. They had the car too low which was causing me to run out of suspension travel and roll my front tires. Since then, I've raised the ride height and am now trying to dial in the suspension.


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