BRZ/FR-S best $28K bang for buck sports cars per Motortrend

[Pf3il]

The difference is a marginal % dampening difference in the front struts - it's the same equipment.

subaru sprays more water on their shocks?

The BRZ may have better springs for autocross, but I think the winner of the stock autocross is going to be whichever company offers crash bolts for front camber changes. I think Toyota has a better history of offering those than Subaru does. But I'd also imagine that if one car had them, so would the other.

this. i don't think the marginal difference in springs is going to make it a faster car through the cones.

[IsraelGT]

is it a better car than the twins for similar $?

.

Lets be honest, you can't buy a new S2000, dear Honda decided they want to make only boring cars.
2nd hand is always an option with every car, you can't compare all cars to same price, potential rivals from the past.

[Smigelski]

Nice. Usable space.

On the suspension, I reaaally want to know what in fact the technical differences are. I want to know now to set up the BRZ like the FRS.

As more and more come out on the street, aftermarket companies will figure all this out for us. So far it seems like the is just springs/shocks. If that's the case, you don't really need to know the technical differences, you just need to buy the springs and shocks from an FR-S owner who moved to coil overs.

I, for one, am paying very close attention to what RaceComp Engineering is doing. They already have springs made that work very well with the car, according to them..

[Khyron]

The BRZ may have better springs for autocross, but I think the winner of the stock autocross is going to be whichever company offers crash bolts for front camber changes. I think Toyota has a better history of offering those than Subaru does. But I'd also imagine that if one car had them, so would the other.

Already out for Subaru (which will be for Scion as well)

"Replace the upper mounting bolt of the shock absorber ASSY FR and knuckle with a replacement bolt. (Part No.: Flange bolt 14×60 (901000394))"

"The range adjustable by replacing the bolts is 0°± 45'"

[Smigelski]

Already out for Subaru (which will be for Scion as well)

"Replace the upper mounting bolt of the shock absorber ASSY FR and knuckle with a replacement bolt. (Part No.: Flange bolt 14×60 (901000394))"

"The range adjustable by replacing the bolts is 0°± 45'"

Ahh, Very good. I wish it was more than one half of a degree, though.

[6cylVWguy]

I've owned both.

GTI > Stang.

The Mustang is sloppy in the real world.

So have I! The only problem with the Mustang is that it's more bouncy than the GTI because of the dampers. But I found that the GTI had a much harder ride. The GTI was a fun car, but it's limits are quite a bit below a Mustang with any type of factory handling package on it. The GTI makes a great daily driver and is fun to drive at typical street limits, but the mustang simply has higher limits. Though I will take this opportunity to ding the steering feel in the mustang, which while nice and stiff in sport mode, still provides less feel than the GTI, IMO.

[IsraelGT]

It's very similar to the issue that the BRX has w/ its rev limiter.

No its not, because in the BRZ it doesn't make the power delivery any less smooth, just hurts the numbers.

And you mean comparisons like this?

No I mean comparos vs. the BRZ and facelifted Mustang

How am I right and MT wrong?

I have already stated that the FR-S/BRZ and Miata (save the Mustang once you compare V6 to V6) are better driver's cars than the GC.

My point isn't that the GC is a better driver's car than the FR-S/BRZ or the Miata, b/c it isn't.

But the GC holds up well against the other sub-$30k sporty cars.

I never said you were right (as I would always take a magazine word over a random internet persona), I said you "might be right".
As for the GC, obviously it finished last in this comparo, so according to them it didn't do well against these 5 cars, and no amount of quotes you bring will change that for these drivers, in these conditions.

[too_slow]

Hyundai's giving away the GC's again.. 0% 84mths even in Canada

[Khyron]

Ahh, Very good. I wish it was more than one half of a degree, though.

From the tech thread:

0.0" +/- 4.5' = .075 degrees - Recommended

0" 45' = .75 degrees - With the adjustment bolts

Its the minutes to degrees conversion

And it's in the manual so it's stock.

[RogueTDI]

From the tech thread:

0.0" +/- 4.5' = .075 degrees - Recommended

0" 45' = .75 degrees - With the adjustment bolts

Its the minutes to degrees conversion

And it's in the manual so it's stock.

Yup, was gonna point out the minutes.

What tech thread is that please??

[RogueTDI]

Hyundai's giving away the GC's again.. 0% 84mths even in Canada

LOL. 0% for 84 months?? Wonder how common that is on other cars in general right now... The Banksters are pretty much giving away credit to get this economy running again (which wont work, btw).

[compy222]

Lets be honest, you can't buy a new S2000, dear Honda decided they want to make only boring cars.
2nd hand is always an option with every car, you can't compare all cars to same price, potential rivals from the past.

given the time frame and proximity we have to the final builds on the S2000 and RX-8, you can get a near new one with probably less than 20k miles for what you'd pay or less than a new FRS/BRZ.

I think if a TCL'er was shopping for a new(er) sports car, they'd be seriously thinking about a slightly used s2000 or rx-8 while still considering a new member of the twins. They are only about 2-3 model years apart, its not some insane stretch. i'm not trying to compare it to a NB Miata or something from 10-15 years before. you could easily argue the NC2 platform dates to 2009 and is therefore not out of the question either...

my curiosity is if a member of the twins (BRZ/FRS) is somehow equal to or better to the previous sports cars of the last five years...which then would justify buying or trading in an older car. someday, i'll need backseats...if the twins are as good as the s2000 and provide a similar driving experience...then yeah. i just want to hear a side by side on them as they are in a similar class/category.

[AKADriver]

I did an ownership cost calculation and, for myself, an FR-S becomes cheaper than a used RX-8 after a couple years of driving due to the RX-8's 50% higher fuel demand.

[compy222]

I did an ownership cost calculation and, for myself, an FR-S becomes cheaper than a used RX-8 after a couple years of driving due to the RX-8's 50% higher fuel demand.

i never considered the rx-8, despite its similarities to the FRS/BRZ just because it guzzles gas and is powered by an engine that no one actually knows how it functions.

still, the RX-8 is in the same HP/TQ bracket, weight, chassis dynamics, etc, etc. spiritually, it is probably the closest predecessor to the twins.

[pwm]

given the time frame and proximity we have to the final builds on the S2000 and RX-8, you can get a near new one with probably less than 20k miles for what you'd pay or less than a new FRS/BRZ.

I think if a TCL'er was shopping for a new(er) sports car, they'd be seriously thinking about a slightly used s2000 or rx-8 while still considering a new member of the twins. They are only about 2-3 model years apart, its not some insane stretch. i'm not trying to compare it to a NB Miata or something from 10-15 years before. you could easily argue the NC2 platform dates to 2009 and is therefore not out of the question either...

my curiosity is if a member of the twins (BRZ/FRS) is somehow equal to or better to the previous sports cars of the last five years...which then would justify buying or trading in an older car. someday, i'll need backseats...if the twins are as good as the s2000 and provide a similar driving experience...then yeah. i just want to hear a side by side on them as they are in a similar class/category.

While I largely agree with you, 2 things...

1 - That type of comparison/value judgement can be made in any class of car. Why buy a new GTI when you can get a CPO STI for similar money? Why buy a new Mustang GT when you can get a CPO GT500? Why ever buy new? At some point people just want the new thing.

2 - Some people won't want what amounts to a 13 year old chassis, regardless of whether or not they are looking at a 3 year old car. Yeah the S2000 is great, but its getting up there in age and is based on late 90s tech. I've heard people dismiss the NB Miata for the reasoning that they should either pony up for the better, more modern chassis (NC), or save a bunch of money and get a late year NA because they are so close mechanically to the NB.

While I agree some might actually compare the S2000/RX-8 to the twins while talking on the internet, I don't necessarily think it'll be commonplace once it times to sign the paperwork. And that's when the twins are new. Give them a few years and then the newest AP2s will be 5-7 years old, making actual deliberations/comparisons less likely.

[x1000rpms]

2 - Some people won't want what amounts to a 13 year old chassis, regardless of whether or not they are looking at a 3 year old car. Yeah the S2000 is great, but its getting up there in age and is based on late 90s tech. I've heard people dismiss the NB Miata for the reasoning that they should either pony up for the better, more modern chassis (NC), or save a bunch of money and get a late year NA because they are so close mechanically to the NB.

The high X bone monocoque employed in the s2000 is actually very likely to still be one of the finest chassis even stacked up against modern cars that are still in production - or brand new cars like the twins.

I don't have flex and vibration numbers.. but even though the s2000 was a convertible I would have put it's chassis up against any car out there concerning driving dynamics - including cars with roofs...

Saying that the s2000 chassis is out of date tech is ridiculous. Chassis technology has not exactly "eclipsed" the s2000 and in general moves pretty slow.

Besides the s2000's high x bone monocoque.. the other biggest chassis improvement is hydroforming found on corvettes as early as c5s... i guess the magnesium engine cradle on the z06 and the carbon fiber found on some high end exotics.

If you can name a chassis technology that the fr-s employs that other cars don't i'd love to hear it. I'm not aware of it using magnesium, carbon fiber, hydorforming.. or even a high xbone monocoque...


Overall used cars are always a bargain for car enthusiasts because in general car tech does not move fast enough to truly devalue used products that are on the market. They aren't like iPhones or laptops... they are more like water heaters. They get the job done.. but newer models might be a little more efficient - the technology in an older water heater is essentially the same as a new one even if the new ones are a little more efficient.. and either way you get a nice hot shower.

The biggest reason people buy new is to have a warranty on their daily driver and they want the newest hottest looking thing to impress their friends and family.

[2.0T_Convert]

According to cars.com there are 320 S2000 models for sale within any miles of my zip code in the US.

There are simply not enough used cars to satisfy even the limited demand predicted for the FR-S/BRZ.

Some of you poor blokes are going to have to suffer and buy a new BRZ instead of a 7 year old used S2000.

And ok off topic diverge. For some reason I have an urge for this S2000. But not at $25,000 for 38,000 miles

[TooFitToQuit]

Checked out an FR-S at the dealer about 20 minutes ago. Awesome car but the rear seat / trunk are too small for my life at this point.

[8v_gti777]

I'll be interested to hear once people in here drive one of these. Big question for me is the power- I know it isn't a Corvette but is there still some nice punch.

[AKADriver]

I'll be interested to hear once people in here drive one of these. Big question for me is the power- I know it isn't a Corvette but is there still some nice punch.

I have. I think it did, even with the automatic... but, on paper it's faster than anything I've ever cared to spend my own money on. The car is NOT hurting for power, but you do have to drive it like a naturally aspirated four cylinder, i.e. don't loaf around in the wrong gear and expect to move.

[WhistlerYOW]

Yeah, it "sucked" so much that it made Jalopnik's Best10 List 2 years running and MT's Top 9 Tested in 2010.

Wow, didn't realize we were going back in time, anyone got a DeLorean handy??

[WhistlerYOW]

Checked out an FR-S at the dealer about 20 minutes ago. Awesome car but the rear seat / trunk are too small for my life at this point.

Put the kids up for adoption, you won't regret it.

[TooFitToQuit]

Put the kids up for adoption, you won't regret it.

26. Single. Live alone in the city. No kids. No college debt.

I still use the hell out of my hatchback.

[Hufeisen]

2.0 makes a good point about the GTI being included...

However, does TCL think many buyers will cross shop it between a Miata/BRZ etc?

I looked at a Miata before buying my GTI and came to the conclusion, for a DD, the GTI is better suited to the task. However 6 months later, I bought a used Miata because it was still on my mind. Very different cars, but both enjoyable. I know I contradict my own question, but I was all over the place before buying my GTI. Someone looking for a pure sports car knows what they want.

When I saw the FRS/BRZ at the auto shows, I will admit it has my interest and look forward to driving one and comparing it to others competitors.

[BeaArthur]

Hyundai's giving away the GC's again.. 0% 84mths even in Canada

I'm only seeing 0% for 60 months on the 2012 in Ontario.

[Mike!]

I'm only seeing 0% for 60 months on the 2012 in Ontario.

Yeah, though 1.29% for 84 isn't bad either. It had been 0 for 84 in the past.

Nuts is 0 for 96 on the Elantra Touring. Hyundai Canada is more ambitious than most.

[zhenya00]

2.0 makes a good point about the GTI being included...

However, does TCL think many buyers will cross shop it between a Miata/BRZ etc?

Look at the post above yours. (Not to mention your own experience) The GTI (or its competition) is the car most enthusiasts buy when they realize they can't live with the compromises of a 2+ seater sports car. It's included as a reference point that many people are familiar with.

Regarding the S2000/RX8 comparisons - having a roof, back seats, and a small (but well designed) hatch area makes the BR86 a lot more flexible than an S2000 which isn't allowed on the track with many clubs, can't carry your wheels if it is, and can't carry your kids under any circumstances. The RX8 has scared off even the diehards with its reliability issues.

[Pf3il]

Regarding the S2000/RX8 comparisons - having a roof, back seats, and a small (but well designed) hatch area makes the BR86 a lot more flexible than an S2000 which isn't allowed on the track with many clubs, can't carry your wheels if it is, and can't carry your kids under any circumstances. The RX8 has scared off even the diehards with its reliability issues.

this. and even if they let you run your s2k/miata, you have to pass the "broomstick" test - helmet below windshield header and roll bar. for taller gents, that means aftermarket seats and in some cases custom mounts. and don't forget the harnesses. gets pricey quick.

when there comes a time i need a daily driver again, it will be one of the twins.

[Exhaust Muncher]

Sub,VW, and Genisis for me...

[Benthefrench]

Starts at 22k

[venom600]

Since they included the FWD GTI in this comparison, would it have been fair for them to include the new Mini Coupe/Roadster as well? I wonder how it would have fared against this crew.

[feels_road]

Yep. In fact, I'm sure VW is none too thrilled about the GTI's inclusion here. I'm doubtful VW would have provided a GTI if they had known it would be used in this kind of comparison.

Not sure - but sometimes, being in the same league is a compliment, because racecar.

The GTI of Golf or TDI never fails to come up in commentary when discussing pretty much any sub-$30K car. You can blame feels_road for that on TCL but the same applies to almost every auto review website.

All I can say is that my influence at Motor Trend is rather limited.

[2.0T_Convert]

However, does TCL think many buyers will cross shop it between a Miata/BRZ etc?

There are potential buyers who specifically desire a lightweight RWD affordable sports car and until now that meant Miata or something used. That or give up some demands and get a muscle car.

There are potential buyers who don't really care what drive wheels move the car or about the weight. They simply want good looking sports car at an affordable cost. They may even ruin the cars nature with some rolled fenders to support 30 lb wheels tucked under a slammed car.

That second group is going to be the most critical of the BRZ/FR-S because to them it isn't quite as fast, versatile, or as cheap as other options they would consider just as acceptable - GTI, etc...

All I can say is that my influence at Motor Trend is rather limited.

I can just imagine your articles. BMW 750 vs Audi A8 vs Lexus LS vs Golf TDI for good measure

[2.0T_Convert]

Hmm well now I feel dumb. I think most of us missed the first paragraph on the front article scan.

... vs the original pocket rocket tueton. So the GTI was included because Motortrend considers it the entry level sport gold standard.

[Oliver@triplezoom]

I did an ownership cost calculation and, for myself, an FR-S becomes cheaper than a used RX-8 after a couple years of driving due to the RX-8's 50% higher fuel demand.

How used are we talking? Because you can get a really good 2006 RX-8 for what, under $13k?

Obviously the more desirable updated '09+ models are quite a bit more.