FSI Intake Port Carbon Build-Up Removal Benefits: Fact or Fiction?

[defector]

Well, this may not be a very popular thread or maybe it will be, but I've got to do it, to give some perspective that is lacking in the forums:

First, off, I'm 42, so if you are 24, my opinions may be of less value to you, as our perspectives may be different. I'm not telling you how to think. I'm just offerring a perspective. However, I don't live a sedentary life, so we may be more alike than you think. Every car I've owned since 1987, save a 1996 Taurus SHO that didn't come with one, has been a stick-shift, and I would consider myself a decent, but not great, backyard mechanic. I can handle a brake job, I did the suspension on my 2001 VW Passat, and have done a few timing belts when I was younger on a couple of Fords when the engine bay was bigger (sorry, I admit I paid for the timing belt on my '08 Passat). Anyway, enough background.

As my VW has 103,500 miles, today, I spent 12 hours today removing my intake manifold (for the first time), cleaning each port meticulously, replacing the oil, and changing the spark plugs.

Performance after the drive was exactly as it was before the modification. I tested the car in both the stock and chipped (93 octane) configurations and felt no difference. I realize that butt-dynos are not very accurate, but if you read the comments out there for this maintenance, a normal reader would expect the car would turn into a raped ape. Not in my case.

Yes, my ports were clogged with goo, and cylinders 2 and 4 (counting from the timing belt which was just replaced also this week, so no comments about a stretchy timing belt) were particularly gummed up on the valve stems.

I weighed each divider/tray before and after cleaning and found that I removed 1 gram of goo per port (the divider was 26 grams before in each case, 25 grams after in each case). Assuming the density is similar to plastic (not exact, but close), this means that the thickness of the goo on the divider was roughly 0.05 mm thick assuming 20 square centimeters of surface area on the trays (total for both sides). As a engineer, this was my first guess that the benefits wouldn't be huge.

So what?

So, I'm just sharing a perspective. If you are a curious person and enjoy tinkering and doing light-to-moderate maintenance, that you may wish to know that this isn't like a brake job or changing the cam follower. This job is a pain in the ass if you are on a time limit.

Thankfully, I put everything back together and the car ran fine but at a few points along the way, like when I couldn't get the intake off no matter how much effort (this was due the intake manifold support bracket bolt getting hung up during removal), I was literally just wanting to put my tools away and go back inside the house. However, I don't quit, so I just finished.

The build up on my engine, at 105,000 miles looks better than some cars I've seen. Is that because I have a lot of highway miles? I don't know. I'm smart enough to know that this maintenance on your car may make a significant difference in performance, but if I were to guess, it does not make a difference that matches the performance claims from some.

Take this for what it is worth.

Jim

[Incrementalg]

Nice write up. I'd be interested to know if you see an increase in mpg.

[SickTRed08FSI]

Ugh....another one of these???? Use the search function and youll find out why it is important to clean the valves. You do not always feel the difference on the "butt dyno."

[Incrementalg]

Op never disputed the importance of cleaning...

[bryanviper]

Did you happen to take pictures? If so please post them.

Thanks

[Squillo]

Good write up, my question is more related to the time factor on the cleaning job how many hours would you say you spent, I am about to redo a lot on the engine and want to figure out my time budget.

[200K]

very nice write up! In the perfect world who wouldn't want a clean intake but at the end of the day unless your running against a stopwatch seems like it may not be worth the effort,

im at 65K and plan on running past 120K so I have often wondered what the cost benefit would be.

I suspect like the cam follower to some extent the harder you work the right pedal the more issues you'll experience.

since I am on a limited budget I think I would prefer to drop $$ on a Unitronic stage 1 rather than pay to have somebody clean these

[defector]

1) Sick: Other benefits? I'll watch for them and report them if I see them. I religiously watch my mpg so will report any improvement. But I never had a cold-start issue and I live in Michigan. I know why people do this and what they report. I wanted to do this on my accord as it seemed like a good idea. But it was not easy. I do know the value of improved air flow-- I am an air induction and air intake manifold engineer by trade. But what works on a flow bench doesn't always translate into horsepower, particularly on a turbo-engine.

2) How long did it take? 10 hours. How long would it have taken if I had ALL the right tools including a better light (Lowe's run #1) and a locking 6" 1/4" socket extension and a T30 socket (Lowe's run #2), maybe 8 hours. I had the M10 socket tool, new gaskets, and 4 fuel-injector kits (have 3 for sale now if you are interested as only used 1), a bunch of extra hose clamps for the ones that I'd lose or drop or had to cut off, some dental-picks bought on Amazon, several cans of carb/brake cleaner (no flames on the brake cleaner, it was more aggressive), and a simple dremel tool. So I was only 90% ready. Be 100% ready. Confusing things....the Stasis directions are on an A3 and our three connections (purge/fuel/etc) up in the back of the passenger side of the engine bay didn't go as planned. I couldn't break the fuel connection, so I pondered (too long) if I should just remove the clamp (I did). What else was a pain? The electrical connections. I hate disconnecting these. When you can access the right side to lift the tab it is fine, but when you have to pull on the other end, it always feels like they are going to break (my MAFS connector did a long time ago). It would be great if someone would capture this whole process on video. There are some tricks not mentioned anywhere that I wish someone would document -- like how to start the lower T30 bolts (very hard) or how to start the support bracket bolt as it is impossible to get a hand in there (I taped the bolt to the extension in the end and it worked great). The bottom line is that these engines are put together with some fancy tools to make it easy on the assembly line and while nothing is that difficult, 50 steps, all with some nuance, takes time, patience, or creativity.

3) I have pictures. They are nothing special. What is the best host for pictures and I'll post?

4) My cam follower at 99,000 miles was fine. Nothing like the horror stories posted. I never checked it until that day. I do use Mobil 1 however since new, so maybe this is related to my 5,000 mile changes and expensive oil.

This is just one opinion to offer a balance to the opinion that your car will be transformed into a monster from this procedure. It surely will perform a little better, but don't assume it is always like some of the reports. I'm still glad I did it to say that I did it and to offer this objective opinion, but it was a pain in the butt and my forearms are all bruised up from trying to yank off the intake when it refused to budge when I didn't get the bolt extracted fully from the support bracket.

Thanks for reading.

Jim

[bryanviper]

Any picture hos will do but i personally like to use http://tinypic.com/

[iGen3]

when it gets bad enough, you get misfires. lots. when you clean the valves they go away. pretty simple.

[nater]

Ugh....another one of these???? Use the search function and youll find out why it is important to clean the valves. You do not always feel the difference on the "butt dyno."

There aren't ENOUGH of these. We need more people taking pictures and documenting what they see. And honestly, it's not like this is another "picture thread". Let them be.

I'm enjoying this write up. Keep it going guys.

[zucchini]

There aren't ENOUGH of these. We need more people taking pictures and documenting what they see. And honestly, it's not like this is another "picture thread". Let them be.

I'm enjoying this write up. Keep it going guys.

Well done Sir!

[BlackJelli]

First, off, I'm 42, so if you are 24, my opinions may be of less value to you, as our perspectives may be different. I'm not telling you how to think. I'm just offerring a perspective.

Ugh....another one of these???? Use the search function and youll find out why it is important to clean the valves. You do not always feel the difference on the "butt dyno."

There aren't ENOUGH of these. We need more people taking pictures and documenting what they see. And honestly, it's not like this is another "picture thread". Let them be.

I'm enjoying this write up. Keep it going guys.

I was under the impression that the orignal disclaimer negated any comments from a 24 yr old

[Bill6211789]

the build up effects the mixture of air that goes in your car, i can smell a HUGE difference in how rich my car smells.

After the cleaning i'm also seeing 3-5 MPG better Fuel economy.

My performance change was felt in 3 gear and higher 1-2 are too short to tell.

[defector]

Just 2 days, but so far, no fuel economy improvement. I drive 45 miles each way to work. Depending upon whether I drive to work or home from work affects my mileage.

1) Driving to work with the flow of traffic, I usually get 33-35 mpg. Last 2 days have been 33.9 mpg and 34.1 mpg.

2) Driving home from work at the speed limit (I like to drive home slowly sometimes) I get 34-36 mpg. Last night, I got 35.9 mpg.

3) If I drive about 5-10 mph below the limit and take it easy on the way home, I've managed 39.0 mpg to 42.5 mpg this spring/summer. I will try a shot at beating this.

But so far, the "improvement" for me with my engine is not substantiated. As you know, just your driving habits can affect fuel economy by way more than this, so whatever you report, you have to be extremely unbiased. I'm pretty sure that with pumping my tires up and trailing a semi I could manage to crack 50 mpg and with the same engine get no better than 21-22 mpg by hammering it all the way home.

Anyway, pictures will be posted as time permits. Sorry I didn't video tape for you but that would been an extremely boring 12 hours.

Jim

[jpawl]

Jim,

Thanks for the orginal post. Did you have any cold start idle misses or a CEL on?

2008 FSI here with 70K and a CEL on. Cyl 4 is tripping it at a very low idle - when cold. I suspect the carbon build up issue - seem worse on Cyl 4 from what I read. Some history below....

Local subject matter experts suggested new spark plugs (mine just had 10K miles) and new coil packs. However, CEL came back on. I turned to VWVortex and saw threads about the manual labor task that you just did (cleaning the intake valves by hand).

I am not looking forward to this either but am doing it, very soon. I bought the intake manifold gasket already and the extended (6"?) triple square tool for accessing the intake manifold bolts.

What other gaskets did you need beside the intake manifold?

Thanks,

Jim

[AXZ]

Vag Com shows that little by little carbon is not good

For example, in my 3.2 Fsi from new to 102.000 miles, cylinder timing retardation is growing and also misfires are more common...

so, believe me, sensations are not the same as what Vag Com says.

when my 3.2 hits 120.000miles I will do cleaning valves operation...

regards and thanks for your thread!

ps: 85% in my car is highway driving between 80-110mph.

[defector]

Only gasket needed was the intake manifold gasket as I didn't remove the throttle body. One of my injectors came out and I replaced the o-ring just for fun since I bought 4 of those $14 kits from ECS, but didn't dare try to remove the teflon seal on the end of that. I wasn't confident I'd do it right as the one they gave me didn't look like it would fit. So, I crossed my fingers and stuffed it back in the hole. I read a few posts that said, put a cloth on the injector and tap it back in...but I could still pull it out, but figured the manifold would trap it in place and it couldn't come out.

I drove very slowly home last night including drafting behind a semi for almost 5 miles at 60 mph which usually helps. As I neared home, my mileage varied between 38 and 39.5 mpg, finally finishing at 38.5 mpg when I pulled into the drive. As anyone knows who tries this (stupid) attempt at great fuel economy, even one extra stop-light can throw off your results. But as I just did 39.0 mpg last week on Friday before the install, I'd venture to say, that results definitely are no better or no worse....really just about the same.

Jim

p.s. 110 mph! Wow. I used to do that, but had some close calls and don't do that anymore.

[8v_gti777]

Where'd you get instructions on how to take everything apart, etc?

[defector]

This posting is very helpful.

Also, make sure that you download the COLOR (yeay!) STaSIS step-by-step procedure for free here (at beginning of the attached (below) post there is a subtle link).

Like I said, it misses a few little things, but it is the most complete. I just checked off steps, one by one, and when I took parts labelled them with the 'step' number and put them in a plastic baggie.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea....0t+intake+DIY

[theronin]

if someone sends me a intake mani gasket and 4 injector seal kits i will do it again and have my gf record it. ive pulled my intake mani 3 times in the last 4 days.

if you want to undergo this procedure there is 1 tool that you simply MUST HAVE



http://community.craftsman.com/Craft...ws?tab=details


this tool is a must have for picking up stuff you drop, and also for starting that tricky right lower t30 bolt