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    Thread: First time MS user, VR6 Turbo

    1. Member Sharino's Avatar
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      05-29-2012 08:12 PM #1
      Thought I would start a thread here. I bought a MS3 with 3X from Need_A_VR6 and he has been a great help, looking to get some more advice here to get this car going good so I am not always nagging Paul!

      93 Corrado VR6 with 3.0L, big valve, cams, Precision HP6262BB, 60# injectors.
      SRI with a MK3 ODB2 throttle body. 3" exhaust, kinetic manifold. Not sure what else is important!

      I cut out the factory ecu and wired in the MS3 using the MS3X for the injectors and ignition, using factory coil pack. Injection is set to batch currently.

      So with Pauls help, I got the car to idle. It would start and then stall. I calculated the required fuel at 5.3 but I kept upping it until I could get it to start and stay running. I ended up at 22! and it would idle at 2200rpm.

      I think the problem has to do with the odb2 throttle body, when the MS turns on it opens up the throttle body, possibly too much? Is this normal? as per Pauls instructions, I set it to 195hz.

      This is the point I am currently stuck at. I have a wideband but not wired in yet, I am about to do that tonight.
      Last edited by Sharino; 09-05-2012 at 07:20 PM.

    2. Member Prof315's Avatar
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      05-30-2012 06:55 AM #2
      Quote Originally Posted by Sharino View Post
      Thought I would start a thread here. I bought a MS3 with 3X from Need_A_VR6 and he has been a great help, looking to get some more advice here to get this car going good so I am not always nagging Paul!

      93 Corrado VR6 with 3.0L, big valve, cams, Precision HP6262BB, 60# injectors.
      SRI with a MK3 ODB2 throttle body. 3" exhaust, kinetic manifold. Not sure what else is important!

      I cut out the factory ecu and wired in the MS3 using the MS3X for the injectors and ignition, using factory coil pack. Injection is set to batch currently.

      So with Pauls help, I got the car to idle. It would start and then stall. I calculated the required fuel at 5.3 but I kept upping it until I could get it to start and stay running. I ended up at 22! and it would idle at 2200rpm.

      I think the problem has to do with the odb2 throttle body, when the MS turns on it opens up the throttle body, possibly too much? Is this normal? as per Pauls instructions, I set it to 195hz.

      This is the point I am currently stuck at. I have a sideband but not wired in yet, I am about to do that tonight.
      Try a higher frequency. MS3 supports them and all of the OBD2 throttle bodies I have scoped operate at 500hz with the factory ecu.
      The Professor
      Melbourne, FL
      92 Corrado OBD2 ABA-T (BW EFR 6258) Powered by MS3Pro
      Linfert Performance: The Megasquirt guy in central Florida Like my Facebook page....
      Sandy Linfert 11/4/1991 - 5/13/2013

    3. 05-30-2012 12:30 PM #3
      This is nearly identical to my setup except I have OBD1 TB and run on MS2.

      Basic:

      Req Fuel: 4.9
      Control Algorithm: Speed Density
      Squirts Per Engine Cycle: 2
      Injector Staging: Alternating (Depends on how you have it wired... there are enough injector drivers with MS3 for sequential fuel)
      Engine Stroke: Four-Stroke
      Number of Cylinders: 6
      Injector Port Type: Port Injection
      NUmber of Injectors:6
      Engine Type: Even Fire

      Injector Characteristics:
      Injector Open Time: 1.0MS
      Batter Voltage Correction: .1
      PWN Current Limit %: 100
      PWM Time Threshold MS: 25.5
      Injector PWM Period: 66

      Trigger Wheel settings
      Tigger wheel teeth: 60
      Missing teeth:2
      Tooth #1 Angle: 78
      Wheel sped: Crank wheel


      Here's a screen shot of my VE table 1. Yours will be very similar but not identical... you could load this and drive safely but you will need to monitor with a wideband and tune prior to horsing around. My setup is 2.8 12v Vr6, T04Z, .69ar hot, 262 cams, schimmel sri, atp mani/3" turbo back with cat. Fuel is 60lbs injectors BUT with 35psi base pressure and 1:1 rising rate of Aeromotive A1000 regulator... this behaves slightly differently than a stock FPR which will change the tune. If you would like the export of this so you may load the table directly into your MS3 then send me a PM.

      You will want to change the values in here for idle rather than the req fuel:


      I've worked with the obd2 vr6 tb on another project and my idle settings were:

      Algorithm: PWM
      When to use: Warmup Only
      Idle Valve Frequency: 183
      Cranking Dc: 80
      Idle duty at lower temp (dc): 47
      Idle duty at upper temp (dc): 30
      Fast Idle lower temp: -40F
      Slow Idle upper temp: 200

      If you're getting too much air at idle causing you to go lean or race then just lower the value of the idle duty a couple points at a time and burning to see the result in how the engine runs.

      Hope this helps... it's easy once you get over the first few hurdles and learn.
      Bumblebee Tuna

    4. Member Sharino's Avatar
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      06-01-2012 01:35 PM #4
      I think I am going to give up on getting the odb2 throttle body to work, I have tried different frequencys, anything from 100-500hz, it wont stop buzzing and opens 25% which is too high. I will leave it attached but only for the TPS sensor and unwire the ICV functionality of it.

      I will try and fit a odb1 ICV attached to the SRI post throttlebody. My question is, do I have to route the other side to the intercooler piping or can it just go to its mini air filter, since I am using MAP. Basically does the ICV close completely under boost to prevent a vacuum leak?

    5. Member Prof315's Avatar
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      06-01-2012 01:39 PM #5
      Quote Originally Posted by Sharino View Post
      I will try and fit a odb1 ICV attached to the SRI post throttlebody. My question is, do I have to route the other side to the intercooler piping or can it just go to its mini air filter, since I am using MAP. Basically does the ICV close completely under boost to prevent a vacuum leak?
      Yes put the other side to the I/C piping.
      The Professor
      Melbourne, FL
      92 Corrado OBD2 ABA-T (BW EFR 6258) Powered by MS3Pro
      Linfert Performance: The Megasquirt guy in central Florida Like my Facebook page....
      Sandy Linfert 11/4/1991 - 5/13/2013

    6. Member Sharino's Avatar
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      06-01-2012 02:05 PM #6
      Thats what I figured, I guess I will have to weld another fitting onto the IC piping to run to the ICV. I wish the ODB2 TB worked, it is alot cleaner in the engine bay.

      can anybody show me the proper Idle settings in TS to use with the oem ICV for the 93 VR6?

    7. 06-01-2012 02:46 PM #7
      I have them and will dig out after work. Have you thought about obd1 tb? It has an idle stop adjustment so no ISV necessary. Mine starts up cold and idles fine at about 750. Once hot it idles closer to 880. Zero headaches.

      -Andrew
      Bumblebee Tuna

    8. Member Sharino's Avatar
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      06-01-2012 03:11 PM #8
      Quote Originally Posted by Sharino View Post
      Thats what I figured, I guess I will have to weld another fitting onto the IC piping to run to the ICV. I wish the ODB2 TB worked, it is alot cleaner in the engine bay.

      can anybody show me the proper Idle settings in TS to use with the oem ICV for the 93 VR6?
      Quote Originally Posted by DieGTi View Post
      I have them and will dig out after work. Have you thought about obd1 tb? It has an idle stop adjustment so no ISV necessary. Mine starts up cold and idles fine at about 750. Once hot it idles closer to 880. Zero headaches.

      -Andrew
      Ya, but long story short, I was planning on doing a turbo build for a MK4 GTI VR, ended up changing my mind, selling the mk4 and using everything for my Corrado. I ordered my SRI from Juan for a mk4, so now a ODB1 TB will not fit the flange unless I make up some kind of adapter.
      Poor planning on my part!

    9. 06-01-2012 11:09 PM #9
      I think it's easier to attach obd1 to an aluminum obd2 flange because you just have to drill the holes larger and tap... not so easy to go the other way.
      Bumblebee Tuna

    10. Geriatric Member need_a_VR6's Avatar
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      06-01-2012 11:39 PM #10
      Obd1 tb 100hz and closed dc is around 30% full cold I set to 45-48.

      You sure that obd2 tb is good?
      -Paul
      1995 GTI VR6 - Retired - 12.90@106 R32 power - 12.833@106 12v power
      KPTuned - Official MegaSquirt: Sales - Repair - Installation - Tuning
      MK3 Race Car Partout

    11. 06-01-2012 11:53 PM #11
      Yeah... There are some wiring schematics out there for the obd2 tb that are incorrect... should work fine if wired and programmed properly.
      Bumblebee Tuna

    12. Member Sharino's Avatar
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      06-02-2012 02:14 PM #12
      Ya, I know what you mean about the different wiring information, I believe it is mostly for the TPS which is 5-0V by default, I have that part all work and my TPS calibrated correctly.

      I am going to get another odb2 mk3 TB and see if its doing the same thing before I try switching to a different ICV.

    13. 06-02-2012 02:33 PM #13
      Post a screen shot of your idle valve settings or email me your msq. Might be a setting in there that's funny still as well.
      Bumblebee Tuna

    14. Member Sharino's Avatar
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      06-03-2012 09:39 PM #14
      tried another MK3 ODB2 and got the same results.

      The only settings I have in TS are as follows:

      Algorythm: PWM Warmup
      crank to run taper time: 5
      Valve Mode: Normal, 0%=off
      Output mode: Fidle
      3 Wire Mode: off
      Valve Frequency selection: Use reduced
      reduced frequency: 195hz

      Everything else is not editable

      Are these settings correct?

    15. Geriatric Member need_a_VR6's Avatar
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      06-03-2012 10:47 PM #15
      On ms2 I have used 200hz without a problem but you could try higher. Also you can try swapping the polarity at the tb or in the code and see if it behaves differently.
      -Paul
      1995 GTI VR6 - Retired - 12.90@106 R32 power - 12.833@106 12v power
      KPTuned - Official MegaSquirt: Sales - Repair - Installation - Tuning
      MK3 Race Car Partout

    16. Member Sharino's Avatar
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      06-03-2012 11:08 PM #16
      Quote Originally Posted by need_a_VR6 View Post
      On ms2 I have used 200hz without a problem but you could try higher. Also you can try swapping the polarity at the tb or in the code and see if it behaves differently.
      Noob question, but 200hz is where mine is set to 195hz correct? There is preselect values only so I assume I pick the closest to 200?

      How do you swap polarity in the code?

    17. Geriatric Member need_a_VR6's Avatar
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      06-04-2012 12:03 AM #17
      195hz is as close as you can get. Switch it from normal to reverse under valve mode to change operation.
      -Paul
      1995 GTI VR6 - Retired - 12.90@106 R32 power - 12.833@106 12v power
      KPTuned - Official MegaSquirt: Sales - Repair - Installation - Tuning
      MK3 Race Car Partout

    18. Member Sharino's Avatar
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      06-07-2012 10:57 PM #18
      Ok, the ICV was opening the valve 25% according to the TPS gauge, so I swapped the settings and it moved it down to 8%, is that what it is suppose to be? I calibrated the TPS with no power going to the ICV, so 0% is completely closed. When I turn ignition on, it goes to 8% TPS, I tried different frequencies, from 195-390, etc, didn't seem to make much difference, so I left it at 195hz

      Still having problems getting it to idle properly, the calculator says my fuel needs to be 5.3, I kept trying to up it again to try and get it to idle, but it keeps stalling, it idles at about 1000rpm, for 3 or 4 seconds, if I change the fuel req to 7 or 8ms, I can get it to idle for 15 seconds. I tried adjusting the ASE and Warmup Enrichment, didn't want to change it too much but couldn't get it really to help.

      Any ideas what to do next? Getting really frustrated

    19. 06-08-2012 12:37 AM #19
      I can take a look next week... in DC for a wedding until Sunday. Very quickly, can you post a screen shot of your VE 1 table?
      Bumblebee Tuna

    20. Member Sharino's Avatar
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      06-10-2012 01:22 AM #20
      Spent some time on it today, and I finally got it running good. I changed the VE tables to what DieGTi provided me, and it ran 110% better. Idles good, and once I clean up some coolant hoses in the way from my 02M 6spd swap, it will be ready for a test drive!

      Thanks!

    21. 06-11-2012 12:34 PM #21
      My accel, warm-up enrich and ase settings are well tested. You should be able to pull those from my msq and have a daily driver... that said you should likely only tune with the VE1 table once everything else is loaded.
      Bumblebee Tuna

    22. 06-15-2012 12:43 AM #22
      How's it running? My inbox is no longer full if you're trying to message me.
      Bumblebee Tuna

    23. Member Sharino's Avatar
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      06-17-2012 04:45 PM #23
      Quote Originally Posted by DieGTi View Post
      How's it running? My inbox is no longer full if you're trying to message me.
      Its still hard to start when cold, takes quite a few times to get it going. Once its warmed a bit, it idles better. Still need to fix a few things then take it for a test drive.

    24. 06-17-2012 07:27 PM #24
      Mind sending me msq and datalogs? If mechanical is in order then you should be a half hour from a really decent street tune.
      Bumblebee Tuna

    25. Member Sharino's Avatar
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      06-17-2012 10:39 PM #25
      Alright, I sent my MSQ I am using and the logs of it trying to start when cold.

    26. 06-18-2012 09:26 PM #26
      Found some things comparing your msq settings to mine...

      1) "Don't Include AFR Target" for secondary load parameters.
      2) Over-run fuel cut, KPA lower than 33, TPS lower than 3%, after delays 1.0, delay ego after fuel return seconds 1, return fuel when rpm less than 1100.
      3) Noise filter On, Tach period rejection On, time (ms) 0.1, percentage (%) 10
      4) Coolant based crank duty... I don't use.
      5) Idle Advance Duty... I don't use.
      6) Accel Enrich low threshold 1400, high threshhold 6500
      7) Accel Enrichment Wizard, Mapdot threshold 250kpa, Accel time .3, Accel taper time .3, End pulsewidth 0.0
      Throttle Position vs manifold Pressure Accel Enrichment Strategy, Percent TPS Driven 25%
      TPSdot threshold (%/S) 80.0, Decel Fuel Amount 95%, Cold Accel Enrich(ms) 6, Cold Accel Multiplier(%) 175
      8) Launch Control is On... turn it off until everything is tuned.
      Bumblebee Tuna

    27. 07-14-2012 09:02 AM #27
      Any luck?
      Bumblebee Tuna

    28. Member Sharino's Avatar
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      07-14-2012 08:10 PM #28
      I made all the changes you mentioned, still hard to start when cold. I have been quite busy and haven't really spent any time on it lately, just got back from holidays yesterday.

      I ordered new plugs and need to swap them out as the old fuel settings really messed them up. I will install them tomorrow and report back.

    29. 07-14-2012 09:25 PM #29
      Plugs... I would recommend NGK 4644 aka BKR7E.

      I've tweaked my tune quite a bit including my cold start enrichment. I'll send you the latest if you would like.
      Bumblebee Tuna

    30. Member Sharino's Avatar
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      07-15-2012 01:15 AM #30
      Quote Originally Posted by DieGTi View Post
      Plugs... I would recommend NGK 4644 aka BKR7E.

      I've tweaked my tune quite a bit including my cold start enrichment. I'll send you the latest if you would like.
      Thats the exact plugs I have new in box sitting in my garage. I actually bought 18 of them just incase! lol. Hard to find locally here.

      Yes, please send your file. still have my email?

    31. Member Sharino's Avatar
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      07-15-2012 09:10 PM #31
      Well, changed the plugs and fixed an incorrect setting, I had it set to a 2.5bar MAP and I believe I had Paul build it with a 4bar. Changed it to MPXH6400 and it starts and idles great.

      Problem is, still idles way to high, stays at 2100rpm. Not sure how to lower it, I have the cable to the throttle body so there is a slight bit of slack but the throttle still opens a bit by the ICV wiring (10% on the TPS dial) not sure how I can lower this in the idle settings.
      Last edited by Sharino; 07-15-2012 at 09:58 PM.

    32. 07-15-2012 11:12 PM #32
      Check for vacuum leaks on the manifold - I usually listen around for the hissing.

      Lowering idle would be lowering the duty cycle in the idle valve settings.
      Bumblebee Tuna

    33. Member Sharino's Avatar
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      07-16-2012 09:05 PM #33
      Quote Originally Posted by DieGTi View Post
      Check for vacuum leaks on the manifold - I usually listen around for the hissing.

      Lowering idle would be lowering the duty cycle in the idle valve settings.
      If I turn the ICV off, the idle drops down to 500rpm and works when warm so I believe there is no leak, its just something is telling the ICV to open my throttle body to 20%. Even when warm. I need to confirm with Paul he put PWM circuitry in cause something is weird. I just turned it off for now, once its warm, idles ok.

      I also having a problem with the TACH output. Instructions say to use T37/3 wire to the tach, the wire is marked as SPR1 and goes to T68/22 on the Corrado ( green/black). I set Tunerstudio for output to be TACHO, is that correct?

      Also, can you send me your latest MSQ DieGTI? Darren "AT" Eurowinnipeg 'DOT' com

    34. 07-17-2012 02:36 PM #34
      Post a screen shot of your idle settings.
      Bumblebee Tuna

    35. Member Sharino's Avatar
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      07-17-2012 08:50 PM #35

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