Why on earth... (corrado head scratching moments)

[hallkbrd]

Sorry I mentioned the 1.8T... Jeesh guys.

But my wife chimed in and says - Why no cup-holders?

Dear - It's a SPORTS CAR. If you are driving it properly, contents in cans and bottle will just go flying anyhow.

[HavokRuels]

I have already stated why the 1.8t is a better engine: it makes more power from the factory, it is lighter, it is cheaper to modify. At the top it makes similar power to the vr but the 1.8t does it out of less displacement which means less weight and cost. Quantitatively the 1.8t is better.

More power? Yeah with help from a turbocharger. Strip it of its turbo or add (hypothetically) a factory turbo to the vr6 and let's do comparisons. What does engine weight have to do with anything, where are you getting your dollar value for being cheaper to build?

Do they get special exemptions from the machine shop? Rods are more money, cams are more money, and most other parts are just the same in price for both.

Let's talk bottom end strength too. 1.8t rods have a threshold of 300 ft. Lbs. of torque before they grenade, vr6 platforms have been known to run up to 525hp on a stock bottom end.

I'm not gonna go any further with this but to say something solely based on the fact that you don't like a certain engine is horse****.

Do I love the vr6? Yep
Do I love the 1.8l I4 platform? Yep

Have I owned both? Yep

Have you? Nope




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[JamesS]

More power? Yeah with help from a turbocharger. Strip it of its turbo or add (hypothetically) a factory turbo to the vr6 and let's do comparisons. What does engine weight have to do with anything, where are you getting your dollar value for being cheaper to build?
Do they get special exemptions from the machine shop? Rods are more money, cams are more money, and most other parts are just the same in price for both.

Let's talk bottom end strength too. 1.8t rods have a threshold of 300 ft. Lbs. of torque before they grenade, vr6 platforms have been known to run up to 525hp on a stock bottom end.

I am not sure if you are aware of this BUT we are comparing an engine with a turbo to one without one not hypothetical examples of adding a turbo etc etc. But if you want to go that way I will.

Of course engine weight has significance as by having a 1.8t there is a roughly 75 pound saving on weight making the car less nose heavy. This is particularly important in the fwd VW platform- the real world application of the two engines.

Dollar to dollar it is clear that moderate gains are more readily made with the 1.8t which is already boosted. A chip can make gains unachievable by a vr without expensive addition of a turbo or supercharger.

As far as high dollar tuning I would guess the cost to build would be similar since more valves etc on a 1.8t but more $ for 6 pistons, rods. As for the strength of factory bottom ends it depends on which 1.8t, but here is 490WHP on stock bottom end AEB: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?1915946/page1

It is pretty clear that the 1.8t is superior to a 12v vr6 in terms of value (mid-level), performance (75 pounds lighter) and efficiency (same power out of less displacement). As I said before that doesn't mean it is "better" to you since you could like some qualitative aspects of it. However, it is quantitatively superior.

[vdubCorrado]

I am not sure if you are aware of this BUT we are comparing an engine with a turbo to one without one not hypothetical examples of adding a turbo etc etc. But if you want to go that way I will.

Of course engine weight has significance as by having a 1.8t there is a roughly 75 pound saving on weight making the car less nose heavy. This is particularly important in the fwd VW platform- the real world application of the two engines.

Dollar to dollar it is clear that moderate gains are more readily made with the 1.8t which is already boosted. A chip can make gains unachievable by a vr without expensive addition of a turbo or supercharger.

As far as high dollar tuning I would guess the cost to build would be similar since more valves etc on a 1.8t but more $ for 6 pistons, rods. As for the strength of factory bottom ends it depends on which 1.8t, but here is 490WHP on stock bottom end AEB: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?1915946/page1

It is pretty clear that the 1.8t is superior to a 12v vr6 in terms of value (mid-level), performance (75 pounds lighter) and efficiency (same power out of less displacement). As I said before that doesn't mean it is "better" to you since you could like some qualitative aspects of it. However, it is quantitatively superior.

I am going to disagree. 1 front end heaviness has nothing to do with performance if you're calling superior in straight line grunt power. 6 Plugs > 4 Plugs. Sometimes less is more which is why they did away with the 20v. You want to boot up a bigger turbo, FMIC and programming then so be it. But I am sure with a simple HG spacer and basic bolt on kit a boosted VR will easily hold its own.

Now if you choose balls out vs balls out then there truely is no replacement for displacement. What ever you do to a smaller engine I can do the same to a larger displacement engine and I guarantee I make more power.

So now if you chose we can turn this into the MKIV forums and argue all day about the VR6 > 1.8T war but bottom line one won't convince the other. It's not going to happen. Now mind you with the passive aggressive closing statement of your opinion doesn't make you right.

Agree to disagree. I have owned both. Far more VR's than 20v's but this is a pointless battle. Your opinion is not swayed by my statements and mine will not be swayed by yours.

Back on hand... Why the F does everything have to be run from a vaccuum pump?! Just use electronic motors like the rest pf the world, I don't give a **** how loud my door locks are when I'm locking the car up for the night haha

[HavokRuels]

Honestly, I can't believe I'm even arguing with a 19 year old Canadian.

Use some of that energy to get laid James


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[JamesS]

Honestly, I can't believe I'm even arguing with a 19 year old Canadian.

and losing to boot .

[DUBZAK]

How so? The vr (that you are speaking of) has only 12 valves, whereas the 1.8t has 20 valves. The head is far more efficient on the 1.8t that is why it makes the same power out of less displacement.

No you idiot, it has a turbo. That is why it makes power....

And that is why a stock 1.8t will try to pull away until 3rd gear when the VR6 waves good bye. Even with the 1.8T having a 3.94R&P it will get walked by a VR6.

They are bringing back the 1.8T and dropping the 2.5L.

JamesS you are naive to think the 3.6 VR6 is not way more advanced than any of the 4 cylinder counterparts in VW's stable. The 3.6 gets great mileage for its displacement with FSI, and makes 300 N/A HP. You cannot compare a FI Motor to a NA motor.

BTW 20v Motors are complete pieces, CEL is a constant issue due to the breather, vacuum, intake systems. I see it every day at work and can vouch that the VR6 is indeed a more reliable motor than any 1.8T even with cooling system issues.

Stock 1.8T rods are also weak as F**k.

[HavokRuels]

No you idiot, it has a turbo. That is why it makes power....

And that is why a stock 1.8t will try to pull away until 3rd gear when the VR6 waves good bye. Even with the 1.8T having a 3.94R&P it will get walked by a VR6.

They are bringing back the 1.8T and dropping the 2.5L.

JamesS you are naive to think the 3.6 VR6 is not way more advanced than any of the 4 cylinder counterparts in VW's stable. The 3.6 gets great mileage for its displacement with FSI, and makes 300 N/A HP. You cannot compare a FI Motor to a NA motor.

BTW 20v Motors are complete pieces, CEL is a constant issue due to the breather, vacuum, intake systems. I see it every day at work and can vouch that the VR6 is indeed a more reliable motor than any 1.8T even with cooling system issues.

Stock 1.8T rods are also weak as F**k.

Omg thank you Will. I tried to explain the whole N/A vs forced induction but all I kept getting back is the word quantitatively.

And like I said, the rods are ****


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[JamesS]

You guys are off the ball today. I specifically clarified that this is between the 12v vr6 and the 1.8t. 24v is in a different league which few of you could afford to exploit to its full potential.

Stock to stock the 1.8t makes more power (granted it is boosted)
IF both are boosted they make similar power but the 20v makes it with less displacement which means it is more efficient.

THUS the main reason the 1.8t is better is because it is more efficient. This efficiency is because it has a better flowing head no matter what you do. The 12v vr6 compensates for its comparative inefficiency with displacement. So in a race the only disadvantage would be weight (minimal) so there is no real difference in real world performance. However comparing the engines one to one we would see that my initial statement that the 1.8t is more modern and better designed (performance wise) is correct.

[hallkbrd]

I PERSONALLY prefer the 1.8T, as I track it. I want less weight up front, not more, as carrying speed through a corner is worth a LOT of HP down the straight. If you drive in straight lines (drag) and just want ultimate FI power - more displacement of course is what you want.

Of course the biggest power limitation with either engine setup is actually the transmission (and traction). Yes, you will need rods if you go over about 300 HP in the 1.8T, but you will also need an 02M - which is a much bigger pain (and expense) to swap into a Corrado (custom mounts, expensive custom axles, shifter box swap) - than changing some rods in the engine. And really, at ~ 2500 lbs and 300 HP you are at the practical limit for an FWD car anyway. So - plan to throw in a LOT more money to go to an 02M AWD setup. Not worth it at all in my book, just buy an Audi already setup that way if you want to stay in the VAG family.

But THIS VW Corrado is my DD (as it would be for most others if they had offered it in a showroom) - not some pure race car. I put about 15,000 miles a year on mine, all year. It is MUCH more reliable than the G60 engine package ever was, but then a more modern engine should be. Things like great fuel mileage (34 MPG at 75 MPH), and cruise do matter to me, for obvious reasons. But we all have our priorities - no one solution is ever best for everything.

If I (not you) had bought it new from a showroom - and they had the choice of the NA VR6 and the 1.8T, for a drivers car I have to pick the 1.8T. That - and PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE - magnetic ride control (our roads really stink here). DD with H&R race springs on our roads can be... a bit jarring at times, but since that is not an option, well worth it for the flat corners.

[wed3k]

**** all that noise, honda f20c is a 2.0 with 240hp naturally aspirated.

[HavokRuels]

.

Stock to stock the 1.8t makes more power (granted it is boosted)
IF both are boosted they make similar power but the 20v makes it with less displacement which means it is more efficient. .

No way on gods green earth would they both make similar power boosted.

Stock bhp on the AWP platform is 180bhp at 8lbs of boost? My AAA 20 year old 12v just put down 174hp on the Dyno N/A with no engine modifications whatsoever.

Now add 8lbs of boost to my 12v and we are talking 280 range???




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[ticketed2much]

Why is the heater core so hard to change? Thats two days of my life I'll never get back.

[mechaniker]

Efficiant at breaking rods...

[hallkbrd]

Heater core - I hear you!

I always wanted a dash mounted on slides like a cabinet drawer. That way, when you need to work on something in or behind the dash - it would be easy. I hate being upside down working under the dash!

[smawgunner45]

LAME THREAD. Sell your Corrado if this is what u spend your time doing! Join a Honda or Sti Blog! or something of that Nature

Lame thread...so I think I'll post on it to keep it going

[tod914]

Biggest head scratching moment thus far was, mailing out a check to purchase the car...

[vdubCorrado]

**** all that noise, honda f20c is a 2.0 with 240hp naturally aspirated.

and no vaiable valve timing...

K20Z3 FTW! my FG2 has pulled on a few S2000's

i forget which company (i would have to dig through my Honda Tuning mags) but has engineered a way to get valiable valve timing on the F20C and got 99hp on the curve, not peak. rather F'n impressive.

...if i could go back in time i would tell myself not to sell my FG2! i miss it like crazy!

[DUBZAK]

Omg thank you Will. I tried to explain the whole N/A vs forced induction but all I kept getting back is the word quantitatively.

And like I said, the rods are ****


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I can't believe a comparison between motors that are 7 years apart in development are even being debated.

**** all that noise, honda f20c is a 2.0 with 240hp naturally aspirated.

And still might out flow a lot of other 6 cylnders, but I don't care for anything Honda or anything related while discussing VW's.
I don't care how good a Honda motor is, I'll still never own one.