Atl-Atl's "documentation" thread.

[speeedfrk]

Wow, I guess that's what happens when you're dealing with custom stuff. Sucks about the ECU, cant say I've seen anyone on here not being able to flash theirs. I will be down Thursday evening through Sunday for a wedding. Hopefully enough time is in there somewhere to get together.

On a side note I was talking about getting some cars on a dyno with a guy up here who recently went stage 2+. Now I'm thinking of maybe trying to setup an R only dyno day and invite anyone that can make it. I'm gonna talk to my buddies and see what we can do. I'll let you and speeedfrk know what happens.

im in. hitting the track wednesday with some buddies from work. z06, supercharged cobra, rx7 with a 5.0 swap, tsi awd talon, built supercharged fox body, and a couple subies. should be fun. hope i can hang somewhere in the middle.

[Atl-Atl]

im in. hitting the track wednesday

GLD? What time?

[psipassat]

I wanna go!!! We will see, no way I am taking the mini!! I do have new green stuffs to put on and some nice rotors. Though 95hp will not cut it with that group!!

[Atl-Atl]

I wanna go!!! We will see, no way I am taking the mini!! I do have new green stuffs to put on and some nice rotors. Though 95hp will not cut it with that group!!

[speeedfrk]

yeah, great lakes drag. prob get out there around 6-6:30. the more the merrier. im sure ill be there till close prob. you should both come out.

[Atl-Atl]

In case people dont see the DIY I'll post this here as well.

Obviously do things at your own risk, I have no responsibility

So here we go. First things first, I owe this to Chuong(John) Tran known as xola3que on forums, who’s build I followed and assistance was priceless when putting this kit together for the first time on a Golf R. He has the front and rear Cayenne setup on his MKV Jetta and was the person that developed the bracket to mount the rear calipers with a separate parking brake. I have not done the rears yet because the brackets might not work on the AWD rear spindle. John and I are in the process of getting an AWD spindle to test fitment and make a new bracket if necessary. I’ll get back to you. John also developed custom 2 piece rotors that can be had for $500 which is about half what you can buy them for from a vendor. I opted not to do this to keep the cost down and I did not include it in the write-up but if you want the rotor info just ask.
I will try to include all the info I have but if necessary I will update this post when I realize things I have forgotten or decide I to add stuff. Hopefully this makes sticky status

I expect the people performing this swap know basic mechanics so I am not going into simple things like how to remove the stock brakes, or how to bleed to new brakes.

These calipers have been used on a number of different vehicles. From B5/6 A4/S4 Audis, A6/Allroad Audis, A3 Audis as well as MKV/VI GTI/Golf/Jettas. I chose to use the Brembo 18Z model caliper which is meant for 350mm rotors and came on the V8 equipped Cayenne/Touareg/Q7. Some people have run the 17Z caliper which is meant for a 330mm rotor and came on the smaller engine vehicles. Rumor is the 17Z caliper is actually more powerful. I have not looked into this because I did not want to run a smaller than stock rotor. I did a ton of research on these brakes before purchasing anything. If anyone is interested in the links I saved or the specific people/places I went for my research let me know and I will share. I don’t like to link other websites in my posts.

My First concern was if the 6 piston 18Z calipers would work well with the stock R master cylinder. This is where I did the majority of my research. Of course a lot of the people on the ‘net post up nonsense like “your brake pedal will always be soft because the fluid volume of the 18Z calipers is so much higher due to all the pistons, your front bias will be terrible, your car will brake so terribly in the winter it will crash and explode upon impact etc.” All of this speak came from people that seemed not to have these brakes on their cars. The people who actually had these brakes on their cars reported no ill brake effects at all. The only place I could find true concern with brake bias was in the Audi crowd. Someone even went so far as to buy an RS4 master cylinder and bench test it’s flow because rumor was it had a higher volume than their stock master. Turns out they look identical but are definitely different. This person reported an increase in volume from the RS4 and consequently better brake pedal feel. I have not found anyone that did the master cylinder swap on an MKV/VI VW. Nothing I found in my research scared me away from installing these brakes on my R. Was that the right decision? I’ll let you decide.

My second concern was if these calipers would actually bolt up to the R. I assumed they would but you all know what assuming does. So I started looking to see if anyone had run these brakes on an R but I couldn’t find one. I might be the first, yippee! Since there are a lot of people running these on MKV/VI platform cars I crossed my fingers and assumed the front spindle on the R would be the same as the FWD cars and the caliper mounts would be identical. Thankfully I was right and platform/part sharing by VW helped me out. After countless emails with John and online research I decided to start ordering parts. I won’t go into the reasons why it took me two months to acquire all the parts. Parts can be sourced individually from a few sites and probably completed in one day. It can even be done in one click if you just want to buy the whole kit from a few vendors that sell it. I wanted to do it for less than the $1900-2500 they list for and I did, a lot less.

There were a few things I bought that were not necessary. I planned on repainting the calipers which I did not because it turns out the silver looks awesome and super low key on my black R. That was about $50 worth of material. I bought some new high temp decals for $8. I bought a power bleeder for $70 that wound up not working and spilling brake fluid all over my engine bay and garage floor. I think the “kit” I got with it that was meant for Euro cars had the wrong cap for the fluid reservoir. Oh well I did the old fashioned two person brake pump job and it worked great. I bought new brake pad wear sensors for $12 because I thought the plug was different than the R sensor plug. Turns out the wear sensor plugs are identical for the Cayenne and the R!!! This was pretty awesome to find out. Below you will find my parts list with prices. Lastly I bought some caliper rebuild parts I did not need, the pad arch and bolt that mounts it all to the caliper. This was $60 I didn’t need to spend. The parts needed for this kit are pretty minimal. I am surprised more people have not done this swap seeing how easy it is. That’s a total of $200 I “wasted” because I wound up buying both my calipers from a salvage yard that has a lot of high end stuff and sold the calipers completely loaded with pads and all, everything looked almost new.

Here is the parts list with prices I paid including shipping tax etc. I am not kidding, this is everything:

• Cayenne 18Z calipers purchased “loaded” for $263 apiece for a total of $526.
• Mercedes Benz GL450 Powerslot rotors $230 shipped.
• Stoptech stainless steel brake lines for MKIV R32 $88 shipped.
• JHM mounting bolts $87 shipped.
• Aluminum hub-centric rings 67mm OD to 65.1mm ID $10 shipped from John!

Total = $941

The stock caliper weighs 18.5lbs, 18Z weighs in at only 14.35!


The stock rotor weighs 26.5lbs, the Benz GL450 Powerslot rotor I am running weighs in at 29.56. Total weight savings between the two is about 1lb per corner, not bad for the massive increase in pad size!


This kit can be done for even less money. It is possible to use the stock R rotors. You can “shave” $200 off the price of the kit by doing this which would bring the price total down to a measly $741, that’s pretty nuts for a forged aluminum monobloc 6 piston caliper front brake setup!


A note about brake lines

You can run the stock lines, but you will need to get a banjo bolt to mount the stock lines to the Cayenne calipers. I chose to run MKIV R32 brake lines. (I do not have the specs for this bolt but can probably find them easily.) They are the same length as the stock R lines. They have the same body side mount. They have the same mid-point mount where the line is attached to the spindle. The difference is the caliper side mount. The MKIV R32 line threads directly into the caliper with no other parts or work necessary. I chose to run Stoptech stainless R32 lines because they are DOT approved.







A note about running Benz rotors

Benz rotors have a different inside hub diameter than VW rotors. The Benz hub diameter is 67mm. The VW hub diameter is 65mm. You need to run a spacer to fill that gap. If you do not run the spacer you will get wobbles at certain speeds that feel similar to your wheels/tires being out of balance. Almost all cars these days are hub-centric so the rotor needs to sit securely on the hub, the lugs will not accomplish this task sufficiently you have to run the spacers. These spacers are available in plastic and metal. I would only run metal because brakes get very hot and could potentially melt the plastic. I bought a pair of aluminum spacers from John for $10 which was a great deal. The cheapest I found them online was $20. The ones he sent me fit however they stuck out farther than the hat of the rotor so I had to grind them down flush with the face of the rotor hat. I did not take a picture of these and I apologize. If you snap the spacer into the Benz rotor you will see what I mean. Mark the excess with a sharpie, grab it with two pairs of pliers and grind it off with a bench grinder. Its aluminum and aluminum is soft, be careful.

Stock rotor "set screw" hole



Benz rotor "set screw" hole, see the difference? There isn't a tapered hole that's anywhere close in size to stock.


Now let’s start looking at how to assemble everything

If you are going to run custom 2 piece rotors (which I’ll get to later) or any kind of Benz GL450/ML63 variant rotor skip this step.

The stock rotors need to be machined. This can be done at almost any decent auto parts store for about $20 per rotor. The rotors are face down in this pic, the side that needs to be machined is the side facing the ground. The only modification you have to do is machine down the outer face (the one you can see from the outside of the vehicle) of the rotors 3mm. The stock R rotors are 345mm (the 18Z calipers are meant for a 350mm rotor) so they will sit slightly low on the pads giving 5mm of pad overhang at the top and 5mm where the pad will not contact the rotors braking surface so it may rust. The other downside to using machined stock rotors is they will not sit centered in the caliper. This may be bad and it may not, I don’t know and I didn’t do it so I can’t help you there. See pic below which shows the offset difference between the stock R rotor and the GL450 Powerslot rotor. Stock is on the right.



Mounting the new calipers and rotors

Assuming you skipped the last step let’s look at mounting the Benz rotors and 18Z calipers. I bought the mounting bolt kit from JHM so I can’t speak for anyone that pieced together the nuts/bolts/washers/spacers. It was tough to swallow $87 for a few small pieces of metal but it saved me a ton of time and gave me piece of mind knowing the parts were the correct grade fasteners etc. to use in the most important part of the vehicle, the brakes. The calipers bolt right up to the stock mounting points. The only thing you need is a spacer that sits inside the caliper mounting hole and takes up the size difference between the bolt threads and the caliper mounting hole, see pics.







The Benz rotors do not have the same rotor set screw as the stock R rotors. This means two things, you can deal with the floating rotors trying to rotate when you are mounting a wheel and having to line up the holes in the rotor with the holes in the hub and wheel. Or you can do a lug stud conversion. I opted for the lug stud conversion. I do not know if the stock dust shields will clear any part of this setup. I removed them before trying to fit them, sorry.
Once you have all the stock stuff removed it will look like this.



Mounting hardware.



If you have a stud conversion you can simply slide the new rotor on and it will for the most part stay in place. If you did not you will have to finagle the rotor on, maybe hold it in place by threading on a stock lug-stud. Then mount the caliper. The mounting pieces come in the bag pieced together in the correct order. The bolt head(which is a 12mm allen!!!!!) sits on the “inside” of the vehicle, the nut(which is 22mm, stock is 21mm what a PITA) sits on the “outside” of the vehicle. The nut will appear to be extremely close to hitting the inside of the rotor, see pic below. It does clear by a mm or two. I was so worried about this clearing I mocked up the calipers on both sides TWICE before I did the full on install. I even bolted the wheels on, dropped the car down to ride height and pushed the whole vehicle back and forth to listen for any kind of contact. You can leave the stock calipers still attached and simply set them out of the way while you bolt on the Cayenne calipers.



I did not torque the caliper mounting bolts. This was probably not smart. I tightened the new hardware tighter than the stock hardware which wasn’t on very tight. I will try to get the torque specs from JHM for their bolt kit. I will add this info when I get it.

Now we are getting close

Once you have the rotors and calipers bolted on its time for the misc. parts. There are a few electric cables running around the brake parts. The larger cable is the wheel speed sensor cable, don’t mess with this. This is the only cable on the passenger side. On the drivers side there is a slightly smaller cable that is attached to the caliper. This is the brake pad wear sensor. The 18Z calipers have brake pad wear sensors on both driver and passenger sides. The R only has one brake pad wear sensor which is on the drivers side. I simply snipped off the stock 18Z wear sensor that was on the passenger side caliper. Here’s the amazing part. The plug on the R which connects the pad sensor to the cable coming from the vehicle is the same exact plug as the stock 18Z plug! My 18Z calipers came from an 05 Cayenne S, I can’t speak for any other years or vehicles but I was surprised/happy to learn it plugged right in. The only modification you need to make is slightly bending up the tab where the plug mounts. You’ll know what I mean when you get here. If your plug doesn’t line up there are a few options. You can run aftermarket pads that have the correct sensor installed. You can splice in the correct plug from the R. Or you can simply cut the stock R sensor and “close the loop” on the sensor by connecting the two wires to each other. I have confirmed the latter works with MrSonSO who performed this “mod” when he put Hawk pads with no sensors on his R.

Now you are ready to install the new brake lines at the caliper, remove the stock line at the body and quickly install the new line at the body. Do this on both sides and you are done with installation. All you have to do is bleed the brakes and you are good to go. Have fun bedding in your rotors and staring at your beautiful new “cheap” gigantic brakes!!!

[Atl-Atl]

Place holder for rear setup when complete.

[Atl-Atl]

Took my car into the dealership today. The shifter was starting to squeak when you moved it side to side. It was getting progressively worse so I went in last week and they had to order some parts because just lubricating it did not make it go away. They wound up replacing the entire "gearshift assembly." Apparently this involved dropping the driveshaft and getting at parts from underneath the car as well as from the inside! Took them about 4 hours to complete the job, but its now squeak free. It was warrantied even though I have a diesel geek and the LEAST mod friendly dealer in existence.

Also double checked the mounting bolts on the Cayenne calipers just to be on the safe side, They were still tight but I snugged them up a bit for good measure. Also snugged all my suspension bolts including the top three strut mount bolts because I could hear the rubber strut bearing caps make noise when driving slowly over uneven terrain.

[psipassat]

Took my car into the dealership today. The shifter was starting to squeak when you moved it side to side. It was getting progressively worse so I went in last week and they had to order some parts because just lubricating it did not make it go away. They wound up replacing the entire "gearshift assembly." Apparently this involved dropping the driveshaft and getting at parts from underneath the car as well as from the inside! Took them about 4 hours to complete the job, but its now squeak free. It was warrantied even though I have a diesel geek and the LEAST mod friendly dealer in existence.

Also double checked the mounting bolts on the Cayenne calipers just to be on the safe side, They were still tight but I snugged them up a bit for good measure. Also snugged all my suspension bolts including the top three strut mount bolts because I could hear the rubber strut bearing caps make noise when driving slowly over uneven terrain.

[Atl-Atl]

You get the car back yet?

[davesxx01]

Zimbrick east isn't mod friendly?

[Atl-Atl]

Zimbrick east isn't mod friendly?

I assume you are joking, that being said.

Luckily I haven't had anything denied so maybe its hearsay but...When I first got the car i was talking with a couple of sales guys and a couple service writers about mods and they were all like "yeah you don't wanna do any engine mods and void your warranty." The typical blanket statement about any mod will void the entire warranty. When I took it in last week because of the squeaky shifter the guy checking me in(not my normal service writer) says "you haven't done anything to void the warranty like change the shift knob have you." I couldn't believe that! really, changing the shift knob will void my warranty? In general all of Zimbrick seems to have an air of unfriendly-ness when it comes to mods. Especially compared to the last VW dealer I went to(Autobarn) where the owner races cars, they are an APR dealer, they'll mod your brand new car and roll the cost into your payment etc. They are as mod friendly as it gets.

[davesxx01]

Wow! I've always gone there with my K04 GTI and never had an issue,,,, with Casey anyway.
I know the other service writer there always asks if I'm modded and I just tell them to have Casey call me.
"Halvie" has a Stage 3+ car with fully rebuilt motor and had his intake manifold replaced under warranty no questions asked.
I purchased both my cars in Milwaukee due to the sour attitude of the sales department though.
Maybe I should of checked with AutoBarn also!

[Atl-Atl]

Wow! I've always gone there with my K04 GTI and never had an issue,,,, with Casey anyway.
I know the other service writer there always asks if I'm modded and I just tell them to have Casey call me.
"Halvie" has a Stage 3+ car with fully rebuilt motor and had his intake manifold replaced under warranty no questions asked.
I purchased both my cars in Milwaukee due to the sour attitude of the sales department though.
Maybe I should of checked with AutoBarn also!

You're not helping keep the money in my pocket

Good to know though, thanks.

[BrownBear]

You're not helping keep the money in my pocket

Good to know though, thanks.

Stop being so handy and "do-it-yourself-y"

[Atl-Atl]

Stop being so handy and "do-it-yourself-y"

Can't stop won't stop.

Seriously though I'm close to pulling the trigger on some stuff, the stock struts need to go. I'm buying a Jeep for the winter so I can park the R, that's gonna cut into mod funds for a bit. That will however, mean motherload come springtime when I sell the Jeep!

[psipassat]

You get the car back yet?

Not yet, it is tuned, and the short shifter is in. I am told they are close, really it's only been 6 weeks

[Atl-Atl]

I am told they are close, really it's only been 6 weeks

I understand quality takes time but 6 weeks for an exhaust? They must have a bunch of other projects that take precedence.

[psipassat]

I understand quality takes time but 6 weeks for an exhaust? They must have a bunch of other projects that take precedence.

When I was in last week the new M6 exhaust came in for Sema. Pretty great looking. Yeah 6 weeks seem a bit much, but I am supposed to have it next week. Doesn't really matter, been traveling this week and I am in New Orleans next week.

[Atl-Atl]

When I was in last week the new M6 exhaust came in for Sema. Pretty great looking. Yeah 6 weeks seem a bit much, but I am supposed to have it next week. Doesn't really matter, been traveling this week and I am in New Orleans next week.

Yeah it's my busy time of year too, lots of travel goin on. I just call it time to save money!

[BrownBear]

Yeah it's my busy time of year too, lots of travel goin on. I just call it time to save money!

Thats exactly why I look forward to traveling for work.

[Atl-Atl]

I have only had my car since March, it spends every night in a parking garage. It does not get a whole heck of a lot of direct sun. I was it roughly once a week. The rubber window trim is starting to turn light gray, get weird spotty sections, dry out and basically show wear that looks like it would be 10 years old not 10 months. Its definitely not a matter of the trim looking gray against the black car. See pics for reference. Its even happening underneath the mirrors where it shouldn't get any direct sunlight, in theory. Can a power washer cause this? I know there are things you can put on rubber trim to keep it in good shape but this should not be happening so soon.

[Atl-Atl]

Took some random shots after a was today. Brake rotors are finally broken in completely. Shes starting to look real nice.

[GTI Fanboy]

Looks awesome. Glad you went Silver on Silver with the Calipers and the Wheels. Doesn't make the car seem overly flashy.

[nkgneto]

Opti-Coat can help those rubber and trim pieces also.

[Atl-Atl]

Looks awesome. Glad you went Silver on Silver with the Calipers and the Wheels. Doesn't make the car seem overly flashy.

Thanks I'm glad I stuck with silver as well.

Opti-Coat can help those rubber and trim pieces also.

Interesting. I promise I will get down there soon to get it done. Can we talk about how to line up your buddy that does paintless dent repair and get the one ding removed at the same time?

[nkgneto]

We just need to settle on a day and I'll see what he can do to come over.

[Atl-Atl]

We just need to settle on a day and I'll see what he can do to come over.

Sounds good. I have a ton of travelling coming up over the next couple months, some of which is over the weekend so I don't know when Ill get back down to Chitown but Ill keep in touch.

[HalvieCuw]

Zimbrick east isn't mod friendly?

Is that the one by Hardee's? That is the dealership the tech who was at Accumoto that one day work at.

How many people are going to GLD on Wednesday?

[Atl-Atl]

Aaaaalllllmost fits!

TR Mortorsports MT1 17x8 et48

There is one way to make your brakes look MASSIVE, stick a tiny 17" rim over them! They don't quite fit, surprisingly close though because the spoke shape is almost perfect to clear these calipers. I need to do some "massaging" of the calipers but its extremely close. A few mm clearancing on the outer corners of the calipers and maybe 3mm of spacer and they'll be just fine. I'm going to try a few other wheels to see if I can get lucky.

[Atl-Atl]

Is that the one by Hardee's? That is the dealership the tech who was at Accumoto that one day work at.

How many people are going to GLD on Wednesday?

No you are thinking of Zimbrick VW West. I have not had service at West yet, I had always lived and worked closer to the East store.

[nkgneto]

Tight fitment! WOW!

[Atl-Atl]

Tight fitment! WOW!

Yeah it doesn't quite clear but I think it'll work soon.

[Atl-Atl]

Swung by Blackhawk Farms to watch some buddies on bikes this afternoon. Snapped a few pics. One of the guys busted out his camera and took some good shots of my car, Ill post them up when he sends them to me. Tow rigs were a Q7 TDi, 06 CTD Ram lifted on remote resi's and a 996 GT3. Yes some people have so much money they drive their 911 track day car to go race their moto. Someone tell me how they do it, please?

Left to right Duc 848, BMW S1000RR, YZF R1 with lots-o-stuff

[notavr]

you car looks great! the brake set up is definitely on my list of things to do