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    VWVortex


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    Thread: Going the FSI way?

    1. 06-08-2012 11:29 AM #1
      Summary: what if hook up my current parts to a ABF-FSI hybrid and run 8000rpm with it?

      Ok guys hoping some of you have the time to read through this list, especially some of the FSI-gurus out here;

      After some weird coinciding problems with a couple of machine-shops this winter me and my team are left with a garage full of nice and promising parts, but still no complete (proper) engine to power our car. With some goodies for 8v, 16v and even a FSI engine, we're unable to decide what road to go, to see what will give us the most bang for the buck the next few race seasons.

      Little background:
      -DIY steel tube frame car running in amateur rallying / offroad autocross for some years
      -Regulations dictate 4-cil N/A engines
      -We've been running high-comp E85 8valvers for the last couple of years, last years engine did about 190BHP with a fully worked 8v counterflow head and 9A bottom end and camshaft that had to much duration. All of our engines have been running ITB's and DIS-coilpacks with a decent "full options" megasquirt system.

      This winter the original plan was to diesel-crank a ABF bottom end, get some proper rods and pistons, get the CR somewhere around 1:14.5 for the E85 and run the 8v head with a F3 camshaft. As said, due to some troubles this engine is still in bits and pieces.
      In the meantime we've put some 45mm jenvey ITB's and a proper SS exhaust manifold on a bone-stock ABF, hooked that up to the megasquirt and use this spare-engine to drive the races at the moment. Engine like this will propably do, what, somewhere in the 175BHP range? So is quite down on power compared to rest of the field (most of the top runners running ~240BHP).
      In the meantime we also continued gathering some goodies.

      All in all this has let to this list of parts currently stashed in the garage (well ok, some still bolted to the car ):

      -Complete megasquirt injection system, DIS coil packs, Innovate wideband lambda, some Bosch fuel pumps suitable for E85 and gasoline, range of injectors (EV6 style) and all other necessary electronics.
      -F3-style drysump system with a PACE pump that runs of a modified IM shaft: link to pic
      -Oil coolers, mounting plates both with and without thermostats
      -Complete (150BHP) 2.0L N/A 16v FSI engine straight out of a Golf mkV, complete with ECU etc.
      -16v inlet: 45mm jenvey ITBs, DCOE manifold for ABF head, trumpets, pipercross airbox
      -8v inlet: 40mm tapered GSXR ITB's, DCOE manifold for 8v counterflow, trumpets, etc.
      -16v and 8v SS exhaust manifolds, 16v proper racing spec, 8v looks like Chinese b-spec quality
      -New 159mm steel H-beam rods + arp bolts, ABF engine
      -Wiseco 83,5mm ABF pistons, machined down to our 14.5CR 8v engine specs
      -Fully worked 8v counterflow head, titanium retainers, lightweight buckets, oversized valves, shorter valve guides, ported, different valve seats for the abrasive E85, etc etc. Has been running for full season with a 309* 14,5mm cam.
      -F3-spec 8v camshaft, duration ~290, lift ~14mm (don't have exact specs right here)
      -Stock 95,5mm diesel crank, not yet machined to plug&play into our petrol bottom ends
      -Stock ABF engine
      -Some 9A/2E/KR bottom ends laying around, one ABF bottom end bored to too much piston clearance for the wisecos.
      -Electric water pump
      -8v adjustable timing gear
      -(oh and our 02A/02C hybrid dogbox with Drenth LSD, but that's gonna be bolted on anyways )

      The way we see it, if we continue our plans and built the engine together, we'll end up with a 2.1L drysump high-comp 8v that will probably reach 200-210BHP. But the machining of another bottom end as well as the diesel crank will set us back about $1000 at least. Not much more that can be done with this engine after that.

      Another option might be to put the ABF head on a 2.0L bottom end (that we still need to machine due to the rods and pistons), still make it high-comp and E85, throw away a stock ABF head after a seasons running, and use the money saved by not machining the diesel crank to buy some proper cams. Still $1000, but this might go towards the 210BHP mark. With the next future steps being porting the head, changing valvetrain and making it solid lifter, possibly adding the 95,5mm crank.

      However, I'm really, really, really interested in the FSI head. We borowed another one of these heads for measurements (our own one is still mounted on the FSI engine), and the pentroof shaped chamber, valve angles and port shapes are way better than any other VW head I've seen.
      The thing is, there isn't that much info available on the head yet, and I don't have any experience with it whatsoever. But to be honest, I just wet myself thinking of a 2.1L 16v FSI hybrid, high CR, E85, drysump, the 45mm ITB's, the whole lot . Or even hooking up the variable camtiming actuator to the megasquirt via some DIY electronics.

      However I don't know what the whole FSI-changeover will set you back, if it's a realistic option, and if it will prove to be the cheaper way of getting additional future power compared to the well-known porting of the ABF head?
      The head must be able to cope with sustained banging into 7900rpm revlimiter.. which will probably be problem no1.
      Dispite the 20kg weight penalty, I'd rather not use the aluminium (06 series right?) bottom end, for two reasons:
      -maintaining a proper rod/stroke ratio with 92.8 and 95.5 stroke, thus keeping the 159mm rods
      -using our drysump system that needs a IM-shaft block

      What about changing the rocker followers? What about inlet manifolds? I know about the DI injetor holes and the oil drains that must be welded shut just like a 20v-ABF hybrid. What about exhaust manifolds? Cams, camwheel, cambelt, head bolts? I think i remember INA once saying he'd be making kits for this, but I'm lost searching for a webshop or pricelist for his product range.

      I guess in the end it comes down to: how much will it set us back of we just want to make the stock FSI head run 8000rpm on a ABF bottom end, and what sort of power delivery can be expected?
      Last edited by dutch_diy; 06-08-2012 at 02:42 PM.

    2. Member ps2375's Avatar
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      06-09-2012 07:18 PM #2
      I don't understand why you have stayed with the 8V head for so long. Are there rule breaks for staying 8V vs 16V? You should be able to make an ITB'd ABF w/ ported head motor make some serious power on premium pump gas, race gas or e85. I know nothing of the FSI heads, but do know there currently is nothing aftermarket to support DI, and tuning or finding tuning for a NA DI motor will not be cheap, unless there is more support avail in europe, dunno.

      And what is a "decent "full options" megasquirt system"? MS1, 2 or 3? I would go with the built ABF head and block and leave the FSI head for future development. Is there a cost effective diff in flow between a built ABF head and a built/converted FSI head? Being that the FSI head is a much newer design, it should be an improvement, and stock it probably is, but is there enough improvement after both are built to justify the cost? I doubt there are FSI heads available like the 16V heads or even the 20V heads. I know there are all kinds of cams for the 16V heads and a decent number for the 20V heads, I have no idea what is avail for the FSI heads.

      And you ending questions are good, but I haven't even seen any builds on here to even begin to answer them. You might have to be the ones to venture into those waters and find out, but that sounds like time and money you may not have.
      Last edited by ps2375; 06-09-2012 at 07:21 PM.
      Tradition is the art of making the same mistake repeatedly, on purpose.

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      06-10-2012 10:36 AM #3
      If you go the FSI route let me know...

      I've got a complete naturally aspirated FSI cylinder head (Euro version, different from the BPY) with cams, 13.5:1 pistons (84/95.5mm, 144/20mm rods, top and side coated, 291gr) and an ITB/carb intake manifold flange that allows you to run port injection (or FSI if you wanted). It's all for sale, would do a package deal for the whole lot, I have lots of supporting information to go along with the build and development.

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