VR6 Electrical Nightmare (VCDS Logs)

[Einkaufswagen]

Hey Vag Peeps

I just purchased VAG-COM a little while back to help me troubleshoot a major problem i am having with my car. I am convinced its electrical... but i dont know what exactly.

VAG-COM Throws 0 Codes in 08 (Engine Block)

Occasionaly it will throw a speed sensor G28 Intermittent signal etc etc...

and from the logs you can see why...

I already replaced the sensor and tested the wires for ground faults
and found nothing.

Any ideas or input is greatly appreciated.

here is a link to the thread/ With running video

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...6#post77746886

And here are the logs for todays run from a cold start up until I cant keep the car running...

Here are the logs sorry they are sized weird I cant figure why there resizing.









I will gladly paypall anyone 50$ who can spot the problem and provide a solution, I am truely stumped with this thing...

[Jack@European Parts]

Where is your auto-scan?

[Einkaufswagen]

Where is your auto-scan?

Give me 2 seconds i thought i posted it.

[Einkaufswagen]

Saturday,09,June,2012,18:06:31:44151
VCDS Version: Release 11.11.3
Data version: 20120401



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Chassis Type: 9M - VW Jetta IV
Scan: 01 02 03 08 09 15 16 17 19 22 29 35 36 37 39 46 47 55 56 57
75 76

Mileage: 285020km/177103miles
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine Labels: 021-906-018-AFP.lbl
Part No: 021 906 018 B
Component: MOTRONIC ME7.1 G V06
Coding: 00000
Shop #: WSC 00066
VCID: 0D111261474A7F1

3 Faults Found:
17834 - EVAP Purge Valve (N80)
P1426 - 35-10 - Open Circuit - Intermittent
16706 - Engine Speed Sensor (G28)
P0322 - 35-10 - No Signal - Intermittent
18010 - Power Supply Terminal 30
P1602 - 35-00 - Voltage too Low
Readiness: 0110 1101

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes Labels: 1J0-907-37x-ABS.lbl
Part No: 1J0 907 379 H
Component: ABS/EDS 20 IE CAN 0001
Coding: 03604
Shop #: WSC 00066
VCID: 36639D8D125C5C9

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 15: Airbags Labels: 1J0-909-60x-VW3.lbl
Part No: 1J0 909 609
Component: C AIRBAG VW3 SG 0002
Coding: 00067
Shop #: WSC 00066
VCID: ECD7FFE59C90569

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 17: Instruments Labels: 1J0-919-xxx-17.lbl
Part No: 1J0 919 951 B
Component: A4-KOMBIINSTR. VDO V57
Coding: 06262
Shop #: WSC 00000
VCID: 2F6DA8E9ED066D1

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 46: Central Conv. Labels: 1J0-959-799.lbl
Part No: 1J0 959 799 AJ
Component: 61 Zentral-SG Komf. 0001
Coding: 04096
Shop #: WSC 00066
VCID: 8603AD4DA23C8C9

Subsystem 1 - Part No: 1J1959801C
Component: 61 Tõrsteuerger. FS0001F

Subsystem 2 - Part No: 1J1959802D
Component: 61 Tõrsteuerger. BF0001r

Subsystem 3 - Part No: 1J4959811C
Component: 61 Tõrsteuerger. HL0001r

Subsystem 4 - Part No: 1J4959812C
Component: 61 Tõrsteuerger. HR0001r

5 Faults Found:
00953 - Interior Light Time limit
25-10 - Unknown Switch Condition - Intermittent
01179 - Incorrect Key Programming
35-00 - -
01358 - Internal Central Locking Switch; Driver Side (E150)
27-10 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
00914 - Window Regulator Switch; Rear Left; Driver (E53)
27-10 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
00944 - Heated Exterior Mirror; Passenger Side (Z5)
35-00 - -

End ---------------------------------------------------------------------

[Jack@European Parts]

Thank you for the auto-scan.

I would check the ground connections under battery tray to body.

Verify battery connections ignition switch and all ground points for engine and ECU.
Also ECU supply voltage relay!

Check fuse box on battery for loose or burned down connections.

It could be an ECU but before I condemned I would run a new set of leads from G28 to ECU just to verify.

[Einkaufswagen]

Thanks for the response!

So the grounds in the rain tray and the ones below the battery box have all been sanded and cleaned.
-No change

Where exactly is the ECU supply voltage relay? i am not sure to where it is.

I gave the fuse box a once over but i did not pull and check the fuses thoroughly i will do that as well.
- Edit just checked it over good pulled the fuses and inspected no damage or burnt wires/fuses


Also i have a perfect 2000 vr6 auto ecu. I am not sure but would that plug into the car to at least ruel out the ecu? or is the auto ecu gona run like crap in a manual car?

Again thanks for the response!

[Jack@European Parts]

You could try it by using VCDS since its IMMO2

0x17-10-000 Save and your all set.

It will display a code for trans missing for sure, but it should run it.

ECU relay component location is clearly in the repair manual.
( Right behind MAF in little secondary fuse/relay box ) Very easy to bridge to rule out for testing.

Use WD.

[Einkaufswagen]

No luck with the Auto ECU it has a different form factor then the manual one so the left harness dose not plug in.

The manual ECU is a 1999.5 the auto is a 2000

I don't know if i should cut the tabs that are blocking it from plugging in or what but i would assume they are there for a reason.

[Jack@European Parts]

No you should not if its a different board.

[Einkaufswagen]

Aright well the worst possible happened....

After a whole day of unplugging and testing harness conections and replugging, Sensor resistances... etc etc

The car magicly fixed itself...

This is bad for a few reasons.
-1 I dont know what the problem was
-2 I dont know if it is truely fixed

-I am going to try to log some more normal operating numbers off of the primary sensors and see if anything looks off.

I drove the car around for a few hours around my house and it only stalled once but it was completly diffrent than the original problem. I was going about 30-40 and it seemed like it lost electrical timing with the engine.

It was flashing the EPC and once i pulled over it started right back up again...

I am hopeing that the EPC light threw a more obvious code, but i have been unable to check the codes since.

Since then i have loged about 20 miles of normal-hard driving and no more messup? Asside from it running a wee bit rich.

I will let you all know what i find, I know a few of you are having similar problems...

[Einkaufswagen]

So drove the car to work this morning and she dident skip a beat.

The car sat in the parking lot for 8 hours.

Go to start it to go home and right back to square 1. Shes running like it was before starts misfiring backfiring very low idle and super rich...

Back to the drawing board i guess...

[Jack@European Parts]

Have you watched ECT or OXS lambda target during condition in logs?

Are you sure all connections are good and maybe you bumped something since its sporadic?

[Einkaufswagen]

Have you watched ECT or OXS lambda target during condition in logs?

Are you sure all connections are good and maybe you bumped something since its sporadic?

I have tried logging the pre and post but to be honest i don't know exactly what should be the correct operation of these sensors. I spent a good hour or 2 yesterday pulling connectors and cleaning/inspecting them with electrical parts cleaner not luck.

I will try to log the sensors alone and get the best data possible.

[Jack@European Parts]

Get a repair manual sir.

[Einkaufswagen]

I have the bently, Maby i just overread but i dident see anything about operating ranges of the sensors. I will go take another look.

[Jack@European Parts]

Oh its in there, just like in the canned crappy Prego spaghetti sauce.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3CRoyrs5rQ

Causes heart burn, just like this problem does for ya!

Please review the manual.

[parsnips]

Years and years ago I had a car with mysterious issues and I eventually fixed it by going through the electrical schematic and finding a short that had nothing to do with the problem but was physically close to the problem.

I'd suggest checking the heated mirrors and the other things listed... when you say you started the car cold I don't think it's cold enough this time of year to trip the heaters on but you never know. I wonder where the thermometer is, and where is the relay?

This is a suggestion of last resort but sometimes you need one of those, see my first sentence

[Jack@European Parts]

No sir not related but a good idea just the same as a noob.

[parsnips]

Not really a n00b, actually, but good luck with your problem.

[Jack@European Parts]

Here you are at post #2.

[Einkaufswagen]

Haha i leave for a few days and this place goes nuts

Anyways That one day i got it to run fine all day gave me a good batch of codes to review. here is the auto scan right after that day when it died again and went back to its usual self.

Friday,15,June,2012,18:17:30:44151
VCDS Version: Release 11.11.3
Data version: 20120401



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Chassis Type: 9M - VW Jetta IV
Scan: 01 02 03 08 09 15 16 17 19 22 29 35 36 37 39 46 47 55 56 57
75 76

Mileage: 285110km/177159miles
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine Labels: 021-906-018-AFP.lbl
Part No: 021 906 018 B
Component: MOTRONIC ME7.1 G V06
Coding: 00000
Shop #: WSC 00066
VCID: 0D111261474A7F1

10 Faults Found:
16727 - Camshaft Position Sensor (G40)
P0343 - 35-10 - Signal too High - Intermittent
17950 - Angle Sensor 1 for Throttle Actuator (G187)
P1542 - 35-10 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
17952 - Angle Sensor 1 for Throttle Actuator (G187)
P1544 - 35-10 - Signal too Large - Intermittent
17580 - Angle Sensor 2 for Throttle Actuator (G188) Signal too Low
P1172 - 35-10 - - Intermittent
18010 - Power Supply Terminal 30
P1602 - 35-10 - Voltage too Low - Intermittent
16825 - EVAP Emission Control Sys
P0441 - 35-10 - Incorrect Flow - Intermittent
17748 - Camshaft Position Sensor (G40) / Engine Speed Sensor (G28)
P1340 - 35-10 - Incor. Correlation - Intermittent
16804 - Catalyst System; Bank 1
P0420 - 35-10 - Efficiency Below Threshold - Intermittent
16706 - Engine Speed Sensor (G28)
P0322 - 35-10 - No Signal - Intermittent
16795 - Secondary Air Injection System
P0411 - 35-10 - Incorrect Flow Detected - Intermittent
Readiness: 0000 1100

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes Labels: 1J0-907-37x-ABS.lbl
Part No: 1J0 907 379 H
Component: ABS/EDS 20 IE CAN 0001
Coding: 03604
Shop #: WSC 00066
VCID: 36639D8D125C5C9

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 15: Airbags Labels: 1J0-909-60x-VW3.lbl
Part No: 1J0 909 609
Component: C AIRBAG VW3 SG 0002
Coding: 00067
Shop #: WSC 00066
VCID: ECD7FFE59C90569


No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 17: Instruments Labels: 1J0-919-xxx-17.lbl
Part No: 1J0 919 951 B
Component: A4-KOMBIINSTR. VDO V57
Coding: 06262
Shop #: WSC 00000
VCID: 2F6DA8E9ED066D1

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 46: Central Conv. Labels: 1J0-959-799.lbl
Part No: 1J0 959 799 AJ
Component: 61 Zentral-SG Komf. 0001
Coding: 04096
Shop #: WSC 00066
VCID: 8603AD4DA23C8C9

Subsystem 1 - Part No: 1J1959801C
Component: 61 Tõrsteuerger. FS0001r

Subsystem 2 - Part No: 1J1959802D
Component: 61 Tõrsteuerger. BF0001r

Subsystem 3 - Part No: 1J4959811C
Component: 61 Tõrsteuerger. HL0001H

Subsystem 4 - Part No: 1J4959812C
Component: 61 Tõrsteuerger. HR0001H

6 Faults Found:
00953 - Interior Light Time limit
25-10 - Unknown Switch Condition - Intermittent
01179 - Incorrect Key Programming
35-00 - -
01358 - Internal Central Locking Switch; Driver Side (E150)
27-10 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
00914 - Window Regulator Switch; Rear Left; Driver (E53)
27-10 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
00915 - Window Regulator Switch; Rear Right; Driver (E55)
27-10 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
00944 - Heated Exterior Mirror; Passenger Side (Z5)
35-00 - -

End ---------------------------------------------------------------------

[Sinbad2000]

All those sensor codes... looks like you may have a short somewhere in the management harness?

[Einkaufswagen]

16727 - Camshaft Position Sensor (G40)
P0343 - 35-10 - Signal too High - Intermittent
-This code has always been there even before the problem, the car has 268 cams that cause it to read incorrectly.

17950 - Angle Sensor 1 for Throttle Actuator (G187)
P1542 - 35-10 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
17952 - Angle Sensor 1 for Throttle Actuator (G187)
P1544 - 35-10 - Signal too Large - Intermittent
17580 - Angle Sensor 2 for Throttle Actuator (G188) Signal too Low
P1172 - 35-10 - - Intermittent
-New codes never seen them before possibly caused from violent backfireing?

18010 - Power Supply Terminal 30
P1602 - 35-10 - Voltage too Low - Intermittent
-Consistant code that started happening when the problem started.

16825 - EVAP Emission Control Sys
P0441 - 35-10 - Incorrect Flow - Intermittent
-Evap system is removed consistant code, even before the problem began.


17748 - Camshaft Position Sensor (G40) / Engine Speed Sensor (G28)
P1340 - 35-10 - Incor. Correlation - Intermittent
-New code, possibly from violently stalling / backfireing?


16804 - Catalyst System; Bank 1
P0420 - 35-10 - Efficiency Below Threshold - Intermittent
-New Code, possibly root cause?


16706 - Engine Speed Sensor (G28)
P0322 - 35-10 - No Signal - Intermittent
-Code that started when the problem started.


16795 - Secondary Air Injection System
P0411 - 35-10 - Incorrect Flow Detected - Intermittent
-No SAI on the car not related to problem

Readiness: 0000 1100





I agree that is a major posibility. The fact that the 02's both front ad back are brand new but still throw a code makes me very supicious ofte 02 sensor wireing. I think because of how rich it is running and how violently it backfies and stalls some of those other codes might be a side effect of the stalling a misireing but may not actualy be causing it if you know what mean.

I am trying to narrow my search down to somethig that causes the engine to run pig rich as this seems to be the consistant base problem.

My next angle of attack will to be to test the resistance and continuity of the 02 wires and try to chase down why it is reading a bad value.

Ideas/ Comments?

-Einkauf

[Sinbad2000]

16727 - Camshaft Position Sensor (G40)
P0343 - 35-10 - Signal too High - Intermittent
-This code has always been there even before the problem, the car has 268 cams that cause it to read incorrectly.

interesting. Wouldn't have thought the cam profile would affect the hall sender on the position sensor. Especially a "signal too high" error which would indicate an overvoltage somewhere?

17950 - Angle Sensor 1 for Throttle Actuator (G187)
P1542 - 35-10 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
17952 - Angle Sensor 1 for Throttle Actuator (G187)
P1544 - 35-10 - Signal too Large - Intermittent
17580 - Angle Sensor 2 for Throttle Actuator (G188) Signal too Low
P1172 - 35-10 - - Intermittent
-New codes never seen them before possibly caused from violent backfireing?

I don't think backfiring would cause this. Unless it was backfiring into the intake manifold and somehow moving the throttleplate?

18010 - Power Supply Terminal 30
P1602 - 35-10 - Voltage too Low - Intermittent
-Consistant code that started happening when the problem started.

Could be caused by the low idle/struggling to idle?

17748 - Camshaft Position Sensor (G40) / Engine Speed Sensor (G28)
P1340 - 35-10 - Incor. Correlation - Intermittent
-New code, possibly from violently stalling / backfireing?

I think it's more likely that these are causing the stalling/backfiring, than the result of it?

16804 - Catalyst System; Bank 1
P0420 - 35-10 - Efficiency Below Threshold - Intermittent
-New Code, possibly root cause?

Completely irrelevent - as far as I know this has no feedback to the engine management itself, it's just a warning that your cat isn't working properly. Probably caused by the misfiring.

16706 - Engine Speed Sensor (G28)
P0322 - 35-10 - No Signal - Intermittent
-Code that started when the problem started.

Our local VR6 expert says all VR6s show this error. He says the car will not start if the G28 is faulty. Worth checking the wiring though?

I agree that is a major posibility. The fact that the 02's both front ad back are brand new but still throw a code makes me very supicious ofte 02 sensor wireing. I think because of how rich it is running and how violently it backfies and stalls some of those other codes might be a side effect of the stalling a misireing but may not actualy be causing it if you know what mean.

I am trying to narrow my search down to somethig that causes the engine to run pig rich as this seems to be the consistant base problem.

My next angle of attack will to be to test the resistance and continuity of the 02 wires and try to chase down why it is reading a bad value.

Ideas/ Comments?

-Einkauf

I think you'd be better served checking the wiring of the engine speed/camshaft position sensors to be honest. Good luck!

Have you done any work on the car recently? Is it possible the cam timing is out? (slipped a tooth on the belt?)

[Einkaufswagen]

interesting. Wouldn't have thought the cam profile would affect the hall sender on the position sensor. Especially a "signal too high" error which would indicate an overvoltage somewhere?

- It has always thrown the hall sensor code since I put in the cams a few years ago.

I don't think backfiring would cause this. Unless it was backfiring into the intake manifold and somehow moving the throttleplate?

-It is defonaly backfireing into the intake mani, I have a SP short runner so the throttle body is extremly close to the head of the engine.

Could be caused by the low idle/struggling to idle?

Its a posibility bit i think the backfireing is a more likely cause.

Completely irrelevent - as far as I know this has no feedback to the engine management itself, it's just a warning that your cat isn't working properly. Probably caused by the misfiring.

Our local VR6 expert says all VR6s show this error. He says the car will not start if the G28 is faulty. Worth checking the wiring though?.

-The senbsor was replaced and the wireing checked. The car will start and run well for about 1 minute then begin to have problems and stall out.

Have you done any work on the car recently? Is it possible the cam timing is out? (slipped a tooth on the belt?)

-VR6's have timing chains that from my knowledge rairly slip, the engine was built about a year with all new hardware (chain guides and such included) It ran strong and perfectly untill this recent electrical problem. The fact that it does start up when cold and runs smoothly for about a minute makes me think that there is no mechanical problem with the engine itself.

[Einkaufswagen]

Alright todays failed attempt at fixing the pile

I decided to Ohm test the 02 sensors as they were all cut and relocated recently.

Solder/shrink wrap was used to put them back together professionally.

I am aware that solder has the potential to bring up the resistances so i wanted to make sure that was not my case.

For the precat

Purp/Brown = 0 Resistance
Green = 0 Resistance
Grey/Brown = 0 Resistance
White = 0 Resistance
Black = 0 Resistance
yellow/blue = Grounding

For the Post cat

Yellow/blue = Grounding
Black/Brown = 0 Resistance
Grey/White = 0 Resistance
Grey/Red = 0 Resistance

So no luck there i was hoping to see a wire with higher resistance then 0 causing a faulty 02 signal this causing it to run rich but nothing...

BACK to the drawing board...

[Einkaufswagen]

Welp i just spent the past 2 weeks ditching the old Jetta body and wiring harness. Essentialy i pulled out the engine and swapped it into a newer 2000 Body with a perfect oem harness non modified. i just got it all hooked up today and...

SAME F****** PROBLEM

This is truely the most difficult thing ever. So the engine is now in a new body with a new ecu...

And it still wont run for shat.

Starts up

runs for about 30 seconds fine then dies and wont start again...

The only code its throwing now is Speed sensor signal

16705/P0321/000801 - Engine Speed Sensor (G28): Implausible Signal

I just don't understand how the **** this is happening.

The sensor was swapped directly out of a running Vr6.

[Jack@European Parts]

Maybe the reluctor on the crank and spank is loose.

Air gap improper or G28 installed half ass.

Incorrect G28 installed.

Wiring also bad in your swap.

Ecu?

Grounds?

Connections/supply relay/ignition switch.

[Einkaufswagen]

I was told the same thing about the crank that possibly the timing is messed up in there if that got loose.

The G28 is socked in a nice cleaned hole, yesterday i tried 2 diffrent sensors one came off a running VR so i doubt it was the individual sensor.

No wiring came over from the Previous body it was a engine swap only

so

ECU is new, and was tested on a good engine before the swap
Grounds were all cleaned

Yesterday i changed the coil pack again - No difference
Changed the spark plugs -No difference
Changed the spark plug wires back to good old OEM reds - No Difference

At this point the car was running but only on 3 cylinders, if i pulled the injector wiring off cylinders 4, 5 ,6 the engine idle wouldent change...

I pulled the injectors and fuel rail and checked for clogs or bad injectors all seemed to be in good working order.

-Coil pack put out good spark to every plug...

-And i also changed to a brand new FPR again with no change...

Truly mind boggling... After i cleared the
16705/P0321/000801 - Engine Speed Sensor (G28): Implausible Signal

in the morning and essentialy ran the thing like crap all day no new codes poped up...

I would figure the way its running i would at least get a damn misfire code or something...