usp downpipes...compatibility questions

[lovinmyjetta]

so ive finally decided on what brand to go with for my 2012 gli autobahn cbfa engine code
usp looks like the best buy for the money and it should go well with the apr stage 2 flash
here is my question.
they show 2 dps on the site but i dont know which one is right for my car
i dont want any cat or resonator and i want it to include both o2 spacers
here is a link to the site...
http://uspmotorsports.com/index.php?...26_358_465_469
CAN ANYONE TELL ME WHICH ONE I NEED?
AND IS THERE ANYONE OUT THERE WITH EXPERIENCE FROM THIS PRODUCT?
any input is appreciated..thanks all

[lovinmyjetta]

btw i plan on giving them a call monday
but i wanted to get any info i could before

[GLI525]

I have the catless downpipe with 02 censors for the cbfa engine. Just call them and tell them which one you want and they will know which to send you. I have it with the apr stage 2 flash as well.

[lovinmyjetta]

I have the catless downpipe with 02 censors for the cbfa engine. Just call them and tell them which one you want and they will know which to send you. I have it with the apr stage 2 flash as well.

sweet man...so what do you think of it? no problems/cel? what all mods have you done?

[CAM-MKVI]

Personally, they're way to expensive.. WAY to expensive.. go to CM performance and they will make it custom for you.. and at a cheaper price..

[lovinmyjetta]

cm performance? never heard of them...where are they located?
and @gli525 sry i saw your build thread

[GLI525]

You aren't going to/probably shouldn't get a downpipe for less than 360 bucks? Unless you have the hookup.

[lovinmyjetta]

You aren't going to/probably shouldn't get a downpipe for less than 360 bucks? Unless you have the hookup.

agreed...id love to pick up aprs...but i cant justify the $$
but i think the usp will be a good choice

[Clyde Smith]

Doing USP's myself.

*ahem* group buy?

[lovinmyjetta]

im down for a group buy...but im looking to do it soon...like monday haha

[flyinbry5]

count me in for a group buy! except Im going catted.

[lovinmyjetta]

count me in for a group buy! except Im going catted.

Why are you going with a cat? Just curious of the power difference. Is it for emissions?

[flyinbry5]

Why are you going with a cat? Just curious of the power difference. Is it for emissions?

not for emissions at all, dont really care about the power difference, but i drive 40 miles each way to work in NYC. My friends and I have all gotten tickets for exhaust being too loud, mostly due to the fact that we were all catless, and also I dont want to be as loud as I was before. I have to drive a lot everyday and I want to work on my car, but I cant deal with another loud car, im not putting the resonator in it though. thats a bit too much.

[GLI525]

The USP downpipe (catless) provides virtually no sound difference at regular RPM's if that's anything to consider. I have it and unless you're really on it its not really any difference, and its not even that big of a difference when you are on it.

[lovinmyjetta]

The USP downpipe (catless) provides virtually no sound difference at regular RPM's if that's anything to consider. I have it and unless you're really on it its not really any difference, and its not even that big of a difference when you are on it.

thats really good to know! im ordering mine as we speak..
you know...after i get this done next week, my stage 2 at the same time..
and my coilovers in the near future...im thinkin about doin a build thread...thoughts?

[RaMMiT]

The USP downpipe (catless) provides virtually no sound difference at regular RPM's if that's anything to consider. I have it and unless you're really on it its not really any difference, and its not even that big of a difference when you are on it.

I'm not tryin to rain on anybody's parade cuz believe me.. I've been tempted to go with USP because of price. But I actually bought the Eurojet downpipe with swappable high-flow cat, which is a better/more expensive pipe than the USP. I liked the option of being able to easily switch between the cat and the test pipe (no cat), but having done the research, I don't think its wise to go with a straight pipe (and I've since returned the Eurojet for the reasons I go into below)

Wide open pipes at full throttle definitely allow for more flow, and thus more power. However, the trade offs for this truly minimal increase in total output are far from worth it. I've had several different cars that I've done a lot of work to. And in my experience, I really don't like wide open pipes. They just don't give the car it's best sound. They remind me of all the pos civics runnin around with fart cans on the back. Plus, you lose back pressure by going without a cat, which leads to "hiccups" or stuttering during normal driving and acceleration. Finally, there is a strong argument to go with a 2.5" pipe over a 3". Guys, our engines are tiiiny. They're incredibly well engineered and extremely impressive for their capabilities, but they're not big engines. A 3" pipe does not provide any tangible benefit over a 2.5", and you lose throttle response with a bigger pipe because there's less back pressure.

Obviously everyone has their own taste and preferences when it comes to sound, and how they want their car to feel. But my point is.. there's a reason USP's pipe is "only" $350 or whatever it is, while APR's is $700 and AWE's is $850. Number 1, you WILL get CEL's on all these pipes (unless you have the tune to clear the codes) so don't let anyone tell ya otherwise. AWE is the ONLY company that guarantees no CEL's. Number 2, the most fundamental lesson I've learned in the 8 or 9 years I've been tuning cars is ..you get what you pay for. Pipes are not "just pipes." And the companies that demand a premium for their parts are justified because they put the time and research into the design to gain maximum throughput. That and they have molds (not molds, but layouts or guides) that insure and guarantee that each of their parts is made and bent the EXACT same way every time for a perfect fit.

Bottom line, I would definitely go with a high-flow cat, and I would be careful with placing price point or cost above all else. Believe me, I have a ton of experience buying the "budget parts." I've justified it the same way everyone has .. "oh they're a smaller company, they're trying to get a foothold. They offer the same stuff, it just doesn't have the "APR logo" on it. Pipes are just pipes." It just ain't the case. Choose quality over instant gratification. If it takes ya another month to save up for it, then so be it. You'll enjoy it a lot more.

Here's a good example of what I mean. Watch AWE's video's below. This is with AWE's highflow cat and resonated downpipe and their touring exhaust with additional resonator and muffler. NOTHING (in my opinion) sounds as good or as sophisticated as this setup.



Now for comparison, watch Borla's promo video. If you don't hear the significant difference, then sure, go with USP. But the difference to me is night and day. Listen to the "bark" of the AWE and the idle. Compare the sound each makes during a shift or at the top of the rev. The "blurb" or growl makes all the difference.

[GLI525]

You know that Billy Boat used to make exhausts for APR? It was the same exhaust system, but one had the APR badge stamped onto it which brought up the price hundreds of dollars, with it being the EXACT same product.

Secondly, your mention of budget parts vs performance GREATLY depends on what those parts are.

Your arguments about 2.5 being better than 3 and so forth are really worth nothing unless you back them up with fact, as well as your backpressure arguments.

The sound argument also depends on where you go from the muffler back, because this downpipe offered EXTREMELY limited change in sound, and most certainly has no resemblance of a "fart can" with the rest of the exhaust remaining in its stock form.

The second video you posted also simply states it is a cat back exhuast, meaning it is using the stock dp correct? If so then the video comparison is also not very useful.

[flyinbry5]

I'm not tryin to rain on anybody's parade cuz believe me.. I've been tempted to go with USP because of price. But I actually bought the Eurojet downpipe with swappable high-flow cat, which is a better/more expensive pipe than the USP. I liked the option of being able to easily switch between the cat and the test pipe (no cat), but having done the research, I don't think its wise to go with a straight pipe (and I've since returned the Eurojet for the reasons I go into below)

Wide open pipes at full throttle definitely allow for more flow, and thus more power. However, the trade offs for this truly minimal increase in total output are far from worth it. I've had several different cars that I've done a lot of work to. And in my experience, I really don't like wide open pipes. They just don't give the car it's best sound. They remind me of all the pos civics runnin around with fart cans on the back. Plus, you lose back pressure by going without a cat, which leads to "hiccups" or stuttering during normal driving and acceleration. Finally, there is a strong argument to go with a 2.5" pipe over a 3". Guys, our engines are tiiiny. They're incredibly well engineered and extremely impressive for their capabilities, but they're not big engines. A 3" pipe does not provide any tangible benefit over a 2.5", and you lose throttle response with a bigger pipe because there's less back pressure.

Obviously everyone has their own taste and preferences when it comes to sound, and how they want their car to feel. But my point is.. there's a reason USP's pipe is "only" $350 or whatever it is, while APR's is $700 and AWE's is $850. Number 1, you WILL get CEL's on all these pipes (unless you have the tune to clear the codes) so don't let anyone tell ya otherwise. AWE is the ONLY company that guarantees no CEL's. Number 2, the most fundamental lesson I've learned in the 8 or 9 years I've been tuning cars is ..you get what you pay for. Pipes are not "just pipes." And the companies that demand a premium for their parts are justified because they put the time and research into the design to gain maximum throughput. That and they have molds (not molds, but layouts or guides) that insure and guarantee that each of their parts is made and bent the EXACT same way every time for a perfect fit.

Bottom line, I would definitely go with a high-flow cat, and I would be careful with placing price point or cost above all else. Believe me, I have a ton of experience buying the "budget parts." I've justified it the same way everyone has .. "oh they're a smaller company, they're trying to get a foothold. They offer the same stuff, it just doesn't have the "APR logo" on it. Pipes are just pipes." It just ain't the case. Choose quality over instant gratification. If it takes ya another month to save up for it, then so be it. You'll enjoy it a lot more.

Here's a good example of what I mean. Watch AWE's video's below. This is with AWE's highflow cat and resonated downpipe and their touring exhaust with additional resonator and muffler. NOTHING (in my opinion) sounds as good or as sophisticated as this setup.



Now for comparison, watch Borla's promo video. If you don't hear the significant difference, then sure, go with USP. But the difference to me is night and day. Listen to the "bark" of the AWE and the idle. Compare the sound each makes during a shift or at the top of the rev. The "blurb" or growl makes all the difference.

I havent gotten clarification on this. your saying Eurojet mkV downpipe fits on our MKVI's? I mean, I dont see why it wouldnt because these cars are mostly the same, but Im just wondering. and your eurojet DP is good? d you have any drone in the cabin? and is it loud in general?

[RaMMiT]

You know that Billy Boat used to make exhausts for APR? It was the same exhaust system, but one had the APR badge stamped onto it which brought up the price hundreds of dollars, with it being the EXACT same product.

Secondly, your mention of budget parts vs performance GREATLY depends on what those parts are.

Your arguments about 2.5 being better than 3 and so forth are really worth nothing unless you back them up with fact, as well as your backpressure arguments.

The sound argument also depends on where you go from the muffler back, because this downpipe offered EXTREMELY limited change in sound, and most certainly has no resemblance of a "fart can" with the rest of the exhaust remaining in its stock form.

The second video you posted also simply states it is a cat back exhuast, meaning it is using the stock dp correct? If so then the video comparison is also not very useful.

Ok you make some fair points. Let me elaborate. The 2.5" vs. 3" argument is well articulated on AWE's website. Go on there (awe-tuning.com) and read about their development of their 2.5" downpipe. Obviously they do a much better job of explaining. And granted, of course they want you to buy their product so clearly they want to present as much evidence as possible to support their system. But they don't just say "2.5" is better than 3" because we say so." They offer plenty of charts, dynos, and evidence to back it up. It's sound logic - and the back pressure issue is very much a real thing.

Pressure is the fundamental part of the way an engine works and how it performs. Want more power, add more pressure, be it to the turbo, injectors, intake, cylinder compression, etc. More pressure = bigger bang inside the cylinders = more power. So when we talk about the loss of back pressure in a bigger exhaust pipe, let's use a straw for an example. Blow through a tiny straw and then blow through one of those bigass straws they give ya for a smoothie at Panera (mmm that sounds delicious right about now actually). The point is there's more pressure inside the smaller straw than in the bigger straw, with the same "blow." Finding the right balance for your engine is key to its performance and response. Too much pressure, and it can't vacate the exhaust gases fast enough (which is of course, why we all upgrade our exhaust systems). But too little pressure, as in my argument against the 3" pipe, and you don't have the necessary backpressure for the engine to "push back on" which decreases throttle response, because the exhaust gases blow out too quickly. Like so many things in life.. it's a delicate balance. Am I making sense? I'm sure google could give ya a better explanation.

And secondly, I was really arguing the point of going with the high flow cat vs the straight pipe than arguing for or against the company. APR's system has the high flow cat, so obviously that increases the price over USP's catless downpipe. But the main issue you want to avoid is that drone we all hear so much about. And to that end, APR and AWE have the engineers and expertise to design a system that forces the unwanted sound waves back into each other and cancel them out. It's this research and development process that you're paying for in these more expensive "brand name" pipes. APR doesn't have a resonator in its pipe; AWE's downpipe is the only one I'm aware of that has a resonator as well as a highflow cat. And because of that, they command the highest price and I think it's obvious how much more refined the exhaust note is from their complete system throughout the whole range.

All I'm saying is, very few engines sound good with STRAIGHT PIPES. The mufflers and the resonators really develop the sound so that it's not just this BLLLAAAAAAPPPP coming from your engine. I used civics as an example because they're the most guilty of strapping straight pipes to a tiny little engine - and we all know how that works out; its AWFUL. Now if you've got a Ferrari built V12, that engine is a masterpiece of engineering and would sound incredible even if it had straight pipes. All of us, however, aren't playing with Ferrari V12's. We've got little 2 liter 4 bangers that need refinement (and back pressure! lol).

I was aware the Borla video uses the stock downpipe. I posted it to try and show the difference between a resonated system with proper cats, vs the borla system with just a generic muffler. And as a lot of people have already said, the downpipe doesn't make a huge impact in the total output of the exhaust note. But it does play it's part. And all I'm doing is just trying to let everyone know that you get what you pay for in this game. And there's a ton of supporting evidence for the benefits of going with the design and features (custom designed/engineered mufflers & resonators, and high quality, high flow cats) from the top producers.

[RaMMiT]

I havent gotten clarification on this. your saying Eurojet mkV downpipe fits on our MKVI's? I mean, I dont see why it wouldnt because these cars are mostly the same, but Im just wondering. and your eurojet DP is good? d you have any drone in the cabin? and is it loud in general?

I guess you didn't read my whole post . I returned the eurojet and I've gone into extreme detail above on why I made that call. As for the MK5 compatibility, I really can't say for sure. If I had to guess I'd say no, only because the cat-back systems are series specific. For instance APR is yet to release their MK6 GLI Cat-back system. But obviously they have a MK5 cat-back. But the downpipe might be the same for both - you gotta do the research Just call these companies. They're usually pretty helpful. Good luck.

[GLI525]

Ok you make some fair points. Let me elaborate. The 2.5" vs. 3" argument is well articulated on AWE's website. Go on there (awe-tuning.com) and read about their development of their 2.5" downpipe. Obviously they do a much better job of explaining. And granted, of course they want you to buy their product so clearly they want to present as much evidence as possible to support their system. But they don't just say "2.5" is better than 3" because we say so." They offer plenty of charts, dynos, and evidence to back it up. It's sound logic - and the back pressure issue is very much a real thing.

Pressure is the fundamental part of the way an engine works and how it performs. Want more power, add more pressure, be it to the turbo, injectors, intake, cylinder compression, etc. More pressure = bigger bang inside the cylinders = more power. So when we talk about the loss of back pressure in a bigger exhaust pipe, let's use a straw for an example. Blow through a tiny straw and then blow through one of those bigass straws they give ya for a smoothie at Panera (mmm that sounds delicious right about now actually). The point is there's more pressure inside the smaller straw than in the bigger straw, with the same "blow." Finding the right balance for your engine is key to its performance and response. Too much pressure, and it can't vacate the exhaust gases fast enough (which is of course, why we all upgrade our exhaust systems). But too little pressure, as in my argument against the 3" pipe, and you don't have the necessary backpressure for the engine to "push back on" which decreases throttle response, because the exhaust gases blow out too quickly. Like so many things in life.. it's a delicate balance. Am I making sense? I'm sure google could give ya a better explanation.

And secondly, I was really arguing the point of going with the high flow cat vs the straight pipe than arguing for or against the company. APR's system has the high flow cat, so obviously that increases the price over USP's catless downpipe. But the main issue you want to avoid is that drone we all hear so much about. And to that end, APR and AWE have the engineers and expertise to design a system that forces the unwanted sound waves back into each other and cancel them out. It's this research and development process that you're paying for in these more expensive "brand name" pipes. APR doesn't have a resonator in its pipe; AWE's downpipe is the only one I'm aware of that has a resonator as well as a highflow cat. And because of that, they command the highest price and I think it's obvious how much more refined the exhaust note is from their complete system throughout the whole range.

All I'm saying is, very few engines sound good with STRAIGHT PIPES. The mufflers and the resonators really develop the sound so that it's not just this BLLLAAAAAAPPPP coming from your engine. I used civics as an example because they're the most guilty of strapping straight pipes to a tiny little engine - and we all know how that works out; its AWFUL. Now if you've got a Ferrari built V12, that engine is a masterpiece of engineering and would sound incredible even if it had straight pipes. All of us, however, aren't playing with Ferrari V12's. We've got little 2 liter 4 bangers that need refinement (and back pressure! lol).

I was aware the Borla video uses the stock downpipe. I posted it to try and show the difference between a resonated system with proper cats, vs the borla system with just a generic muffler. And as a lot of people have already said, the downpipe doesn't make a huge impact in the total output of the exhaust note. But it does play it's part. And all I'm doing is just trying to let everyone know that you get what you pay for in this game. And there's a ton of supporting evidence for the benefits of going with the design and features (custom designed/engineered mufflers & resonators, and high quality, high flow cats) from the top producers.

Yeah I'm aware of back-pressure and it's effect on performance so no issues just wanted to clear a few things up that were probably just worded hastily. It really depends on what you're going with. For example, me going from my 3inch catless into the stock exhaust drops the tubing back down to 2.5, thus not completely changing the back-pressure as 3 inch straight tubing would. In any case I would never recommend anybody doing straight tubing from front to back at any circumference because it is going to sound like crap. Changing the downpipe alone is also not going to affect drone, at least in my experience with the USP, because it originally had, and still has none.

In any case I understand what you're saying, but at the same time, sometimes the price isn't justified by the experience, such as my billy boat example.

[Clyde Smith]

As far as I know, AWE's downpipe doesn't have any magic technology to just not trigger o2 sensor faults. I believe the deal is that they include spacers for the o2 sensors with their pipe.

And I can draw all kinds of graphs and charts to support my theory that all fat people are just skinny people wearing exoskeletons...but that wouldn't really make it true.

AWE is a business. I'm not saying they're right or wrong for using 2.5" piping for their exhausts. But, they'd be fools to try and sell something different than the rest of the market without throwing up a bunch of facts supporting their product.

My point: You don't need to spend $600+ on a downpipe to see gains, or to get a quality part.

[lovinmyjetta]

lovin the responses guys...allow me to keep it going with this..
i know we are getting into the topic of backpressure and sound
that being said im looking to go with a good catback in the near future...
more than likely awes track 2.5in
i think it will offer a good balance of sound and performance
what are your thoughts?
3 inch to 2.5
as well as track vs touring

[RaMMiT]

As far as I know, AWE's downpipe doesn't have any magic technology to just not trigger o2 sensor faults. I believe the deal is that they include spacers for the o2 sensors with their pipe.

And I can draw all kinds of graphs and charts to support my theory that all fat people are just skinny people wearing exoskeletons...but that wouldn't really make it true.

AWE is a business. I'm not saying they're right or wrong for using 2.5" piping for their exhausts. But, they'd be fools to try and sell something different than the rest of the market without throwing up a bunch of facts supporting their product.

My point: You don't need to spend $600+ on a downpipe to see gains, or to get a quality part.

Whatever it is that they do differently to prevent CEL's, the point is they do it. AND they gaurantee it. That's refinement. That's engineering. And with the alarming lengths that VW/Audi is going to, to identify and flag tuned cars (see: "Audi searching for tuned ECU and tagging them"), it seems more important than ever to go with parts that are designed first and foremost to work within the specifications of the engine, and not throw codes vs. claiming "highest HP gains" at the sacrifice of smooth and reliable.

And although your graph comment is funny, it's not a good analogy. AWE isn't pulling' numbers out of its ass and calling it "research". This is real data and real numbers. AWE started at 3", just like everyone else. But through data analysis and trial and error, they concluded that 2.5" is much more suited to this particular engine. They certainly didn't do it for marketing .. That'd kinda be like a plastic surgeon saying "come to me because I make smaller boobs than my competitors" . AWE is saying, "I'm sorry ma'am, you're 5'1" and you weigh 100 pounds.. DD's are just too big. How about we try and a nice C for your body type, because ...that's more appropriate."

So on your point: "ya don't need to spend $600 to see gains, or to get a quality part". You're right. Ya also don't need to spend $2million dollars for a 1,000hp car ..yet the Veyron exists. Or pay $250,000 for a Ferrari F430 when a tuned out 996 Turbo will whomp on its ass for less than half. You get what ya pay for. That's all I'm sayin'

[Clyde Smith]

I'll be just as good getting blown away by Cobalt SS/TCs and Mazdaspeed 3s with my $400 downpipe as you would with your $1600 AWE 2.5" exhaust

[asusc]

I'll be just as good getting blown away by Cobalt SS/TCs and Mazdaspeed 3s with my $400 downpipe as you would with your $1600 AWE 2.5" exhaust

Yea but at least he can articulate his point with well thought out responses instead of snarky comments while you both are getting blown away.

[lovinmyjetta]

well if it aint my favorite 2 vortexers offering their colorful commentary in my post

[asusc]

well if it aint my favorite 2 vortexers offering their colorful commentary in my post

I'll add my two cents:

I went APR downpipe (and will pick up their GLI exhaust when it is ready). For full disclosure, I didn't pay retail since retail is for suckers (I didn't pay anything), but if I had to pay for a downpipe I would have went with APR anyway.

They've been around for a long time, the product has been tested on multiple generations, I've got an APR dealer for support 20 minutes away, and I can always reach them via phone/email if I've got any questions. I'm sure the USP downpipe is fine, but I generally don't make purchasing decisions based on price.

"The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten."

[Clyde Smith]

Yea but at least he can articulate his point with well thought out responses instead of snarky comments while you both are getting blown away.

It was a joke.
Sorry I didn't respond to him with another wall of text

[asusc]

It was a joke.

My response was in jest as well.

Sorry I didn't respond to him with another wall of text

I wish more people would respond with walls of technical text that actually made sense in this forum.

[Clyde Smith]

I wish more people would respond with walls of technical text that actually made sense in this forum.

Agreed.
Though, there's only so much to say about LED selection and credit card 'build' threads.

[lovinmyjetta]

I'll add my two cents:

I went APR downpipe (and will pick up their GLI exhaust when it is ready). For full disclosure, I didn't pay retail since retail is for suckers (I didn't pay anything), but if I had to pay for a downpipe I would have went with APR anyway.

They've been around for a long time, the product has been tested on multiple generations, I've got an APR dealer for support 20 minutes away, and I can always reach them via phone/email if I've got any questions. I'm sure the USP downpipe is fine, but I generally don't make purchasing decisions based on price.

"The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten."

this is so true...hopefully i wont regret this buy...my buddy over at apr said even he hasnt heard anything bad about it...
the only sad part is i was planning on getting it tuned friday...but the part wont be in until monday