APR K04 Build experience 2012 GLI bad software?

[Schrottplatzer]

I took my list and car to Double J Motorwerks in Portland. They did a great job putting the below together in very quick time:

2012 GLI: Volkswagen Racing Intake/Induktion Motorsports pipe. APR Stage III K04 kit, S3 FMIC, Techtonics Tuning 2.5" downpipe, Techtonics Tuning 2.5" Dual Borla exhaust, H&R Springs

Joey took great care to make sure everything was right. We ran the car a few times and noticed some misfires. After agreeing to take it easy on the car I took it home for the weekend where I experienced more misfires, all the way to the point of disabled cylinders.

It was suggested that the plugs be regapped; still problems.

Swap plugs with $13 a piece NGKs; no change.

The hardware is all VW/Audi, and the engine has only 1600 miles on it so it's not a hardware issue. We know there's plenty of air and compression so that leaves just fuel or spark as the culprit. It runs ok at lower RPMs with random single misfires, but under load or above about 4k bad things start to happen.

It seems to me that the software isn't figure out quite yet. I'm royally disappointed; I chose APR because they are a world dominate programmer for VW/Audi. They have been alerted to the problem, so the ball is in their court now. We'll see if APR remembers the Volk in Volkswagen.

Thanks to Josh at TT for the quick exhaust build and Joey and the team at DJM for transforming my car so quickly.

[sh{}e]

I took my list and car to Double J Motorwerks in Portland. They did a great job putting the below together in very quick time:

2012 GLI: Volkswagen Racing Intake/Induktion Motorsports pipe. APR Stage III K04 kit, S3 FMIC, Techtonics Tuning 2.5" downpipe, Techtonics Tuning 2.5" Dual Borla exhaust, H&R Springs

Joey took great care to make sure everything was right. We ran the car a few times and noticed some misfires. After agreeing to take it easy on the car I took it home for the weekend where I experienced more misfires, all the way to the point of disabled cylinders.

It was suggested that the plugs be regapped; still problems.

Swap plugs with $13 a piece NGKs; no change.

The hardware is all VW/Audi, and the engine has only 1600 miles on it so it's not a hardware issue. We know there's plenty of air and compression so that leaves just fuel or spark as the culprit. It runs ok at lower RPMs with random single misfires, but under load or above about 4k bad things start to happen.

It seems to me that the software isn't figure out quite yet. I'm royally disappointed; I chose APR because they are a world dominate programmer for VW/Audi. They have been alerted to the problem, so the ball is in their court now. We'll see if APR remembers the Volk in Volkswagen.

Thanks to Josh at TT for the quick exhaust build and Joey and the team at DJM for transforming my car so quickly.

I remember someone used different spark plugs and had problems with their kit too. I can't find the thread, but the person swapped them back and supposedly fixed the problem.

Hopefully APR will chime in because I'm ready to order the APR K04 too for my '12 GLI.

[davesxx01]

Sounds like coils, not plugs. Or at least electricial related. I'm still on my stock plugs with 20k on my K04. 34K total miles on my car, no misfires.

[NS01GTI]

Sounds to me like a hardware issue. Not sure why you're so quick to point the finger at APR, aside from asking for support.

[sh{}e]

Sounds like coils, not plugs. Or at least electricial related. I'm still on my stock plugs with 20k on my K04. 34K total miles on my car, no misfires.

Make sure those coils are snapped in. They do have tendencies to pop out here and there.

[Schrottplatzer]

Everything has been checked and double checked. I pointed the finger because it's a brand new car. New components professionally installed, so hardware is all 1,600 miles or younger. There were no ignition problems before the upgrade. I hope someone from APR can get on here and let me know what's going on.

[NoRegrets78]

Everything has been checked and double checked. I pointed the finger because it's a brand new car. New components professionally installed, so hardware is all 1,600 miles or younger. There were no ignition problems before the upgrade. I hope someone from APR can get on here and let me know what's going on.

www.goapr.com/support/datalogging.php

[davesxx01]

Yep, do a datalog and send it in. Some of the APR guys are in the UK for a big GTG now but I'm guessing they will be back next week so don't expect an immediate reply.

It really does not matter how many miles are on your car either. Ran perfect before you had work done and mis fires after? Hardware or install problem. The place you had it installed at may be a great place but a harness bumped or slightly loose is all it takes.
What codes is it throwing, mis fire in one cylinder only or multiple?
You can go back and re check the right file was downloaded into your ECU also. Or see if someone at APR can pull you up and see what file was down loaded from them.

Call their tech support, your receipt should have the file # from APR.

[nick0188]

This probably isn't the problem, but you are running a 2.5" downpipe on software that calls for 3". Check for boost leaks on the hoses for the S3 and everywhere else (an actual leak test, no just listening while at idle or looking at a vag-com....pressurize the system and listen or do a smoke test). Make sure MAF is in the correct orientation and plugged in securly. What are the plugs gapped at? Whcih plugs? O2 sensors in the correct loacation and/or connected to the right plugs? You dissassembled all of this during the build, so guaranteed one of these is an issue. And once again...why run a smaller downpipe than the software called for?

[Schrottplatzer]

So data logs were performed and it was apparent that there's not enough fuel beginning about 4500ish rpm and leaning further as the tac climbs.

[davesxx01]

Post the log.

[nick0188]

This makes me think one of your O2 sensors was messed up during the install.

[Schrottplatzer]

If it was the o2 sensors I'd have problems all the time. The car runs pretty good under 4k.

[Schrottplatzer]

Thanks to those who have sent me PMs with similar experiences with this kit on 2012 GLIs. Anyone have any real solutions?

[sh{}e]

Thanks to those who have sent me PMs with similar experiences with this kit on 2012 GLIs. Anyone have any real solutions?

Did you scan your car for codes? Go to the dealership or get an OBD-II reader to see any codes. Do it even if the CEL is not being displayed.

[Schrottplatzer]

Yep, scanned beyond just OBD II. VW has many more codes that can not be pulled with just OBD II. VCDS/VAG-COM is how we knew it was misfiring and shutting down cylinders. Not a fun thing to see on your one-month-old car.

I've also had issues with it hunting for idle occasionally, mostly during a warm start-up. Anyone else experience this?

[sh{}e]

Yep, scanned beyond just OBD II. VW has many more codes that can not be pulled with just OBD II. VCDS/VAG-COM is how we knew it was misfiring and shutting down cylinders. Not a fun thing to see on your one-month-old car.

I've also had issues with it hunting for idle occasionally, mostly during a warm start-up. Anyone else experience this?

Yep, scanned beyond just OBD II. VW has many more codes that can not be pulled with just OBD II. VCDS/VAG-COM is how we knew it was misfiring and shutting down cylinders. Not a fun thing to see on your one-month-old car.

I've also had issues with it hunting for idle occasionally, mostly during a warm start-up. Anyone else experience this?

You are going to start having to eliminate all the changes made. I think #3 in the list could be the culprit. I would start with the following in this order:

1. Flashing the car back to stock to rule out software.
   
2. Boost gauge install to check vacuum at idle. (indicate leaks)
   
3. MAF troubleshooting. Do me a favor. With the car not running, unplug the maf sensor and then start the car. Tell me how it runs. This will force the ECU to run at default mappings.
   
4. Go over the hardware install to make sure everything is installed correctly. This part people are reluctant to do because they trust their installer but mistakes happen. Are you using stock plugs? If not, go back to the stock plugs with the recommended gap before trying to remove any part of the kit.

Do not rule anything out or try to blame the kit or installers. This will leave you frustrated and bitter. Remember, you made a lot of changes to the car and things like this can and will happen. Good luck to you, and we all will try to brainstorm with you to find a solution .

[Schrottplatzer]

Thanks for the tip. I'm not blaming anyone, just declaring an issue and looking for help. From the data everything is fine until I hit about 4500rpm. Driving it feels fine until 4500 rpm. VCDS showed it going too lean starting at that point. One would think that if anything else was wrong it would have problems all the time. The only other symptom is that the engine hunts for a little bit during a warm startup.

[GlfSprtCT1]

Just based on past experience from my 1.8t days, under certain rpms and loads, the ecu will use different sensors for thr a/f mix. My suggestion.. make sure the 02 sensors arent throwing codes and are in thier correct locations , no spacers etc. just my .02 , theres a ton of ko4's running around successfully, im sure we'll get this figured out.

[ViRtUaLheretic]

1. Go over the hardware install to make sure everything is installed correctly. This part people are reluctant to do because they trust their installer but mistakes happen. Are you using stock plugs? If not, go back to the stock plugs with the recommended gap before trying to remove any part of the kit.

This x2
People are used to changing out plugs on older Turbo cars. For our cars stock plugs work just fine. Only change them to something different unless your NEED to (I believe APR Stage 3 kits use different plugs).

Also double check the install as was noted. Its easy to miss something such as a leak or a bolt not being tightened down or a plug not plugged in al lthe way.


You also mention a missfires, what cylinders have missfires? Every time is it a specific cylinder or two or three? If so try swapping coilplugs with a cylinder having the issue and one that does not then run more logs and see if the missfire changed to a different cylinder.

[DjSherif]

I had some teething problems with my K04 as well. Some of it due to the install and some of it to do with the Coil packs.

But the car is running super smooth and I have about 15,000 miles on my kit.

[jm6001]

I have a 2010 GTI that occasionally has problems starting and its stock software wise, but has intake downpipe and intercooler... I have pretty much narrowed it down to being a problem with the LPFP.. Unfortunately our cars do not have a sensor on the low pressure side of things so there would be no codes for the LPFP itself..

[Schrottplatzer]

From what I've learned the GLI computer is set up a little different than the GTI, and 2012 is different than previous years. I guess I'm one of the guinea pigs for a new form of software. I've had more than a couple PMs of people with the same kit, on the same car, with the same problem. APR please help!

[sh{}e]

From what I've learned the GLI computer is set up a little different than the GTI, and 2012 is different than previous years. I guess I'm one of the guinea pigs for a new form of software. I've had more than a couple PMs of people with the same kit, on the same car, with the same problem. APR please help!

Can these people chime in then or post logs? I'm getting this kit and want to know of these issues since this kit is known for OEM reliability. By the way, did you go back to the stock plugs?

[Schrottplatzer]

I've still got the NGKs in, it runs fine under 4500 rpms, and I drive this car to work etc so I'm afraid to make any changes. So as not to flood the forum I cut a few of the misfire logs

000768 - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected
P0300 - 000 -
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01100000
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 1
Mileage: 2910 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2002.14.12
Time: 12:44:03

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 6749 /min
Load: 92.5 %
Speed: 95.0 km/h
Temperature: 99.0°C
Temperature: 33.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 1010.0 mbar
Voltage: 13.716 V

000771 - Cylinder 3
P0303 - 000 - Misfire Detected
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01100000
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 1
Mileage: 2910 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2002.14.12
Time: 12:44:03

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 6749 /min
Load: 92.5 %
Speed: 95.0 km/h
Temperature: 99.0°C
Temperature: 33.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 1010.0 mbar
Voltage: 13.716 V

000770 - Cylinder 2
P0302 - 000 - Misfire Detected
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01100000
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 1
Mileage: 2910 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2002.14.12
Time: 12:44:03

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 6749 /min
Load: 92.5 %
Speed: 95.0 km/h
Temperature: 99.0°C
Temperature: 33.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 1010.0 mbar
Voltage: 13.716 V

004874 - Cylinder Disabling
P130A - 000 - - MIL ON
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 11100000
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 1
Mileage: 2910 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2002.14.12
Time: 12:44:04

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 4981 /min
Load: 99.6 %
Speed: 103.0 km/h
Temperature: 99.0°C
Temperature: 34.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 1010.0 mbar
Voltage: 13.716 V

[sh{}e]

If the same cylinders are misfiring then the injectors on those two are bad. Since this is such a new car then don't swap out the injectors until you go back to the stock plugs. I would recommend changing the plugs because our cars do not like different plugs unless they are accounted for in the kit, which they are not. I know I have been preaching about the stock plugs, but I know from experience how finicky these cars are when changing them.

The main culprits for misfires are:
1. Coil packs
2. Spark Plugs
3. Injectors
4. Faulty O2 sensors.
5. Possibly the APR flash on the car. <--- This is a stretch though.

[sspcivic31]

I had a similar problem on my 2010 GTI after the Ko4 install. It was a bad coil pack. Car ran fine the night I took it home, drove to work the next morning and same problem as you. Misfires, cylinder disable etc. bad #2 coil pack. I replaced all four and have 3 spares.fixed it right up. the hunting for idle is more than likely the ecu doing adaptation since that was wiped out during the ecu flash. How far will it go at light load without misfiring?

[Schrottplatzer]

It's not the coil packs, or any other hardware issue. I have no issues under 4000rpm. VCDS shows that it is running too lean above 4500rpm.

[Branman]

It's not the coil packs, or any other hardware issue. I have no issues under 4000rpm. VCDS shows that it is running too lean above 4500rpm.

If you someohow know its not your coilpacks or any other hardware issue why did you make a thread? If your so sure that it is software then why dont you contact your nearest dealer or APR to sort the issue? APR or a dealer is not going to fix your "software issue" over the internet. Alot of people in this thread are throwing out very good tips and helpful info and you dont seem to wanna hear any of it.

[sspcivic31]

my guess is the ecu is trying to do its job. it sees a big spike in unburned fuel via 02 sensor(rich condition) and starts to lean the mixture out to get it under control, it figures out that it cant and disables the cylinder(s) to save the motor from damage. under 4000 you arent loading it enough to make the spark in the affected cylinder blow out. all your vcds logs you posted all look like bad coil pack 1600 miles or not. what does the injector pulse width on all 4 cylinders look like at the time this happens? or the fuel pressure? just fyi 4500 rpm is close to max torque and boost so maybe..............
im not trying to be a douche here, but spend the $25 and replace a coil.

[Schrottplatzer]

If you someohow know its not your coilpacks or any other hardware issue why did you make a thread? If your so sure that it is software then why dont you contact your nearest dealer or APR to sort the issue? APR or a dealer is not going to fix your "software issue" over the internet. Alot of people in this thread are throwing out very good tips and helpful info and you dont seem to wanna hear any of it.

I posted to see if anyone else has had this issue. New computer type on a new model car on an slightly different variant of the TSI-- I don't expect the software to be flawless, but I'd like to know what other people have done if they had this issue because APR has been silent. I have been working with the local distributor and they haven't answered him yet either. This is the least support I've ever had for such a purchase. Heck, I've had better customer support for $25 purchases.

Bottom line is I don't want to damage my car, but need to drive it daily. I also don't want to throw parts at it and add to the variables. Is it wrong to want to enjoy a car that you just spent a ton of money acquiring and building? I'm no rich kid, I'm a Soldier who spent considerable time saving the money for this.

[sspcivic31]

Have you put the car back in stock mode assuming you have a fully loaded ecu? If so does it still present the same issues? Don't get stuck in one place trying to troubleshoot this. You should approach other angles besides bad software. At the very least you should do as someone else here mentioned and move the coils in the two cylinders that are misfiring to the other two positions and see if the misfires follow. That is a clear indicator the coil(s) are failing at high rpm/load. If you or the shop has already done all this then i understand your frustration, but the main APR guys were all in the Uk so that may explain why they haven't been available to help yet. Would be interesting to see the logs that were run not just the codes thrown.

[ViRtUaLheretic]

I posted to see if anyone else has had this issue. New computer type on a new model car on an slightly different variant of the TSI-- I don't expect the software to be flawless, but I'd like to know what other people have done if they had this issue because APR has been silent. I have been working with the local distributor and they haven't answered him yet either. This is the least support I've ever had for such a purchase. Heck, I've had better customer support for $25 purchases.

Bottom line is I don't want to damage my car, but need to drive it daily. I also don't want to throw parts at it and add to the variables. Is it wrong to want to enjoy a car that you just spent a ton of money acquiring and building? I'm no rich kid, I'm a Soldier who spent considerable time saving the money for this.

Half the people in this thread say to take the easy and most logical step to troubleshoot your car, yet you dont listen to us.
Have fun continuing to blame the software.
Im out

[Arin@APR]

Sorry, I was out of the country when you sent me a PM.

If you give us a call we will have you run data logs, check out the logs and see if we can point to the issue. Usually it's spark or fuel related (Spark Plugs, Coil Packs, Injectors, Etc).

334 502 5181




---------

UPDATE TO ANYONE READING THIS THREAD - December 7th, 2012

Official threads

Here: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...(GLI-CC-Passat)
Here: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...(GLI-CC-Passat)


Background:

Recently it has come to APR’s attention some 2.0 TSI EA888 vehicles equipped with K04 turbochargers and APR K04 software are experiencing misfires in the upper RPM range. Documented cases primarily exist on newer MK6 GLIs, CCs and Passats with MED 17.5.2 ECUs. However, some customers with nearly identical setups and identical software on these same platforms and others are not experiencing issues.

Diagnosis:

APR’s Engineers have spent countless hours diagnosing vehicles through both hardware and software analysis. Ultimately it was discovered that vehicles experiencing misfires were equipped with weaker exhaust valve springs from the factory. In fact, these weaker springs show roughly 10% less stiffness as shown on a spring dynamometer. These vehicles have identical Engine codes and exhaust valve part numbers as those with the proper valves. Unfortunately VW’s dealership parts system (ETKA) does not indicate a part change. Furthermore, APR has had a test vehicle in house for over a month with this issue. The issue was repeatable by anyone who drove the car. Since changing the springs to the appropriate stiffness the car has not experienced a single misfire on the production V2.0 calibration.

The photo below illustrates known good vs known bad factory valve springs.



The issue occurs when exhaust backpressure (coupled with the natural forces in a valve train) is high enough to cause the exhaust valves to stay open during the intake stroke. During this time, the intake valves are open and exhaust pressure is flowing back through the intake and into the intake manifold. In doing so, data will show a false rise in boost pressure and a corresponding drop in mass airflow. The car will then cease to accelerate, will eventually blink the Check Engine Light, disable the cylinder and throw the car into limp mode with a fault code for misfires.

In all cases we’ve seen these problems will not exist at stock output levels, or even at Stage 1 or 2 power levels due to lower exhaust backpressure. Furthermore, Stage 3 and 3+ vehicles are not experiencing these issues to date. This may sounds odd but the reason is simple. Stage 3 consists of a significantly larger manifold, turbine wheel, and wastegate therefore reducing the backpressure one would see with a high output K04.

The issues these vehicles have faced are very similar to one existing on some Audi S3 and TTS vehicles in the past. Ultimately it was determined by Audi the valve springs were weak enough to cause issues even on completely stock vehicles, so Audi released a Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) advising dealerships how to replace the problematic parts.

Solutions:

The primary solution to this issue is to replace the valve springs with a set of higher rated springs. The problematic vehicle we diagnosed in house received new valve springs and the issue completely disappeared with NO changes to the existing APR K04 MED17.5.2 software.

A secondary workaround to this issue is a software file that reduces engine output in the upper RPM range ultimately reducing back pressure. Peak torque remains consistent between the old and new software so despite having lower output, the vehicle still feels fast. This software can be made available upon request.

Home Diagnosis:

We are not stating that ALL misfires on every K04 car are caused by exhaust valve spring issues. As you all know, there are many possible sources for engine misfire. Some examples include: bad coil packs, fouled spark plugs, faulty fuel delivery systems, etc. This failure mode happens in a specific way that typically involves having misfire that is localized to Cylinder #3 (sometimes Cylinder #2) in the upper RPM band. The car will typically cease to accelerate once the problem is encountered.

Before concluding you may have weak exhaust valve springs, you should have already diagnosed the car through Vag-Com logging, swapping coil packs, swapping spark plugs, and maybe even changing the injector. Instructions for logging a vehicle using Vag-Com can be found here: http://www.goapr.com/support/datalogging.php

To check what valve springs you have, you can remove the PCV:





And attempt to inspect the color bands on the exhaust valve springs.





Please refer to the image above for known good and bad valve spring color bands.

Thank you for your patience during our diagnosis and Go APR!

-Arin

[Bpete]

Half the people in this thread say to take the easy and most logical step to troubleshoot your car, yet you dont listen to us.
Have fun continuing to blame the software.
Im out

Your hopeless support and endless opotunity to make someone feel like an idiot just does not need to be posted here everytime. Take a break.