Where did Sciroccos Come From? - The part played by the Audi 100

[TBerk]

Where did Sciroccos Come From? - The part played by the Audi 100

The Audi 100 is a car 1st built back in the 60's and according to Wikipedia (where everything must be true...) the thing was not even supposed to be brought to light-

... and it was Kraus who developed the Audi 100, in direct contravention of instructions from Volkswagen management, and in secret. The first Nordhoff knew of the project was when he was presented with a production ready prototype.

That's pretty groovy, esp the part about the aircooled VW Beetle being the reason VW bought the Audi assets; they needed more manufacturing capabilities.

But this is the part that led to this thread:

The Audi 100 would be a commercial success, but it would also be the first of a series of front-engined water-cooled Audi based designs from the Volkswagen group that would, starting with the first Passat in 1973, enable the group to survive and flourish once the European and US markets began to lose their appetites for rear-engined air-cooled models.

And as we know, that 1st passat was out just in front of the Scirocco, which hit the floor right before the Rabbit. (Everybody probably thinks the Rabbit/Golf I came 1st, in watercooled pedigreed...).

Anyway, I was reminiscing over a Audi 100 I used to have. It had a lot of seemingly Daimler Benz type tech in it.

And of course we all recall Giorgetto Giugiaro had lots to do w/ the body and general outcome of the Scirocco body work. But there where others as well. (btw- I have been having lots of fun w/ this site: Giugiaro's Italdesign )

So it seems the Audi 100 MkI might be a Maternal Grandfather...

[Doug T]

This is an early draft of a report that I created for Scirocco Tech. What is posted below is about 1/2 of the original released MK1 section. Unfortunately the well edited version (that is worded better) is no longer available due to Scirocco Tech going offline. The information below is sometimes difficult to understand because some sections were converted from interviews in different languages. This set of posts is one of the better descriptions that explains how the Scirocco was conceived. In this report you will see that the Scirocco is not really a car that VW wanted or supported in the early parts of the development.




I think it is important to understand who the key people were and what happened from the 1950's to late 1960's. It takes many years to develop a car. The Scirocco (and Golf MK1) were major changes for VW. The Scirocco, Passat and Golf marked the turning point from rear engine, rear wheel drive cars to front engine, front wheel drive cars. The components to make this change came from many sources.

Post World War II European cars were either expensive or minimal. The VW Beetle (known as just The People's Car) was a leader in the minimal category as compared to micro cars like the BMW Isetta. The Type 1 Beetle was VW's serious product for the working class in the 1950s. Outside of the Karmann built convertible Beetle VW did not have a indulgent car. Karmann was an independent specialty coach builder and tooling expert. Karmann designed the convertible Beetle independent of VW and then presented the idea to the heads of VW in Wolfsburg. Karmann's proposal was for Karmann to build the convertible Beetle in Osnabruck. VW approved of the product and agreed that Karmann would be the manufacturer. VW was most interested in the working class customer so allowing Karmann to build the low volume special addition convertible was a good solution for VW.

Karmann


Karmann Coach Works was founded in 1901, when Mr. Wilhelm Karmann took over the factory of the coach-builder Christian Klages at Osnabrück. Karmann was a full-service-vehicle-supplier. They supply the automotive industry with ideas, solutions, products and they have production plants. They partnered with the many brands in the industry.

Volkswagen asked Karmann to design a sports car on the Beetle chassis. VW rejected all of the prototypes that Karmann presented. Wilhelm Karmann casually mentioned this to Segre of Ghia (Design). Segre had some ideas. Without the knowledge of either Karmann or Volkswagen, Segre procured a standard Beetle, removed the body and built a design study. It was shown to a surprised Wilhelm Karmann in 1953.

On September 14th, 1955 the Osnabruck factory built Karmann-Ghia was officially introduced at the Frankfurt auto show. The Karmann-built coupe differed slightly from Ghia's early prototype. Changes included twin nostril-type front apron vents, curved side glass, full-width bumpers, wider chromes strips around the windows, relocated front signal lamps, revised rear deck louvers and a repositioned Ghia fender badge.

1965 Karmann Ghia replacement study:


Karmann made several different variations of the Karmann Ghia coupe / convertible. As the years progressed Karmann wanted to maintain construction of the sporty VW so Karmann continued to make prototypes. The prototype shown above designed by Giugiaro, when he worked at Ghia, never made it to production but the basic concept surfaced later.

VW had other relationships in the automotive world. Porsche got a royalty for every Beetle sold so if sales of the Beetle dropped off Porsche would get concerned. Porsche and Karmann had a good relationship after building Porsche's 356 in 1961. The "CAR GUYS", Porsche, Design houses and Karmann, proposed several product ideas to VW. The mass people movers, VW headed by Hemnch Nordhoff, rejected most of the CAR GUYS proposals.

Mini's front wheel drive sparked a new trend in compact cars
The 1959 Mini's space-saving front-wheel-drive layout (which allowed 80% of the area of the car's floor pan to be used for passengers and luggage) influenced a generation of car-makers. The mini is considered to be the British equivalent of the Volkswagen Beetle.

The Audi




Auto Union (transition to Audi)
In 1964, Volkswagen acquired the trademark rights and the Auto Union factory in Ingolstadt from Daimler. At the time a new model, F103, was under development with a four-stroke engine. Daimler / Auto Union created a range of cars that were the basis for Volkswagen's future front-wheel drive models. Volkswagen abandoned the DKW brand (DKW was part of Auto Union) because of association with two-stroke engines. The new Auto Union model was launched in September 1965 as simply the "Audi." The model name Audi was the model designation rather than the manufacturer make name. As more models were later added to the Audi range, this model was renamed Audi 72,(72 being the nominal power output of the engine). The more powerful Audi 80 and Audi Super 90 sports saloons appeared in 1966. In 1968 the arrival of the less powerful Audi 60 completed the range. In 1972 the F103 series was discontinued in favour of the "B1" Audi 80. The Audi (72) provided the later front wheel drive cars with the fender to fender grill and the foundation for the rear suspension.

EA266, was created as the Beetle replacement for the 60's but took too long



VW may have averted a costly mistake by killing the EA266 shown above. This was Porsche's idea of a Beetle replacement, and development was underway as early as 1966. It was a hatchback with a generous greenhouse and wheels pushed out to the edges of the platform, quite advanced for the day. The front suspension was MacPherson struts and the rear was a multi-link system. The EA266 was a rear wheel drive power train layout. Porsche mounted a water-cooled 1.3-liter four cylinder engine under the back seat. The location elevated the rear-seat cushion, reducing passenger space and headroom, and would have subjected the occupants to noise, heat, and odors. Complicated engine cooling and poor engine access were other drawbacks. I will talk about this later.

"NSU"
A serious recession hit West Germany in 1967, coupled with serious competition for VW from Opel and Ford. Hemnch Nordhoff, chairman of VW blocked all Beetle replacement proposals up until his death. Kurt Lotz took over as chairman of VW when Nordhoff died and made it VW's priority to slowly end production of the Beetle starting in 1968. The Beetle looked dated and was becoming more expensive to build. The rear air cooled VW engine layout was becoming outdated. New safety standards were forcing updates and driving up cost on the production VWs.

Kurt Lotz purchased NSU in 1968 with intentions of using the NSU water cooled, four-stroke piston engine with a front-wheel-drive configuration. In1969 the Neckarsulm NSU company was integrated with Auto Union (now Audi), which Volkswagen had acquired from Daimler Benz in 1964.

K70 details:



Kurt Lotz thought the K70 was the perfect way to transform VW's image. The NSU Neckarsulm plant built the NSU K70 version between 1969-1970. The NSU K70 rebadged as a VW sedan went into production at Volkswagen's new Salzgitter plant with little fanfare in August 1970. The change in production location was not popular with the auto workers union. The K70 was launched in export markets soon after VW production started.

To make the K 70 competitive it had to get an improved 411-like rear trailing beam semi independent suspension as well as improved crash safety and better brakes. The front disk brakes were mounted inboard, inside the engine bay, and that created overheating problems. Some further improvements were not ready when production of the K 70 started production at Salzgitter (25 miles southwest of Wolfsburg). In 1971 VW made some interior changes. VW replaced the steering wheel and seats with those from the VW 411 as well as some minor exterior changes that included the use of Audi bumpers.

The VW K70 was not well accepted in Europe. The name "K70" referred to the fact that the engine had a power output of 70 PS and the "K" denoting the German word "Kolben", meaning piston. VW was desperate for a new family sedan to replace the unsuccessful Type 4 (Volkswagen 411), which was intended as an up market move from the Type 1-based cars. The K70, featuring front wheel drive and the modern styling VW was lacking. The engine was longitudinally mounted, placed directly above the differential, between the front wheels, and canted to the right. The engine performance, especially the entry level 75 PS (55 kW; 74 hp) versions, was just adequate. The K70's poor fuel mileage became a greater issue toward the end of the car's production run with the 1973 oil crisis.

The (sedan) K70's unpopularity carried over to the MK1 Jetta in Europe when it was released in 1980.

Many of the conceptual drive train and underpinnings used on the VW B1 (Passat) platform came from NSU and Auto Union.

The VW Porsche 914 Built at Karmann
On March 1, 1968, the first 914 prototype was presented. Development was complicated after the death of Volkswagen's chairman, Hemnch Nordhoffon on April 12, 1968. His successor Kurt Lotz, was not connected with the Porsche dynasty and the verbal agreement between Volkswagen and Porsche fell apart. In Lotz's opinion, Volkswagen had all rights to the model, and no incentive to share it with Porsche if they would not share in tooling expenses. With this decision, the price and the marketing concept for the 914 had failed before series production had begun.

The EA276



Volkswagen came up with the EA276 in 1969. The EA276 hatchback with short overhangs and a long roof with a stubby tail featured a front engine, with front wheel drive and a front mounted air cooled then later a water cooled engine. The EA276 was used for testing. Like the EA266 the EA 276 had MacPherson strut suspension. This was the test bead for what became the A1 platform.

"The inspiration"
Japan was starting to gain entry level sales in the both European and North American markets with cars that used the Mini packaging concept. With pressure from Japan Kurt Lotz decided to move the VW products up market by improving the product design in 1969.

At the Turn automotive show Lotz toured the floor looking for inspiration. Lotz found six cars that he found interesting and it turned out that four of the six were designed by Giugiaro. Lotz arranged a meeting with Giugiaro at the Italdesign stand at the show. In an interview with Giugiaro recalls Kurt Lotz saying 'Do what you want, but do it fast.' The commission was to design a mid range model that would eventually turn into the Passat. Giugiaro was fast and delivered a detailed presentation by May 1970.

Giugiaro
Giugiaro worked at Bertonein in 1959, where he established his reputation as a ground breaking designer. By1960 two of his designs had been produced to worldwide acclaim in the shape of the Ferrari 250 GT and the Alfa Giulia GT, the latter entering production almost immediately. In 1965 Giugiaro moved to Ghia as head of their Styling and Design Centre. Despite two sports car masterpieces, the Maserati Ghibli and De Tomaso Mangusta, relations with the new owner, De Tomaso, soured and this hastened the Giugiaro's departure from Ghia. On 7 February 1967 Giugiaro struck out on his own and founded Ital Styling.

Ital Styling/ Ital Design
On February 13, 1968 Giorgetto Giugiaro and an excellent technical project team were assembled at Via Tepice #15 in Turin, Italy. A new car design development company was created. Giorgetto Giugiaro who became an independent design contractor under the name of Ital Styling, formed a new organization with his friend, Hideyuki Miyakawa, and a technical group, Aldo Mantovani, Luciano Bosio and Gino Boaretti. The registered name of the company was Studi Industrial! Realizzazione Prototipi S.p.A. (Industrial Prototype Development Research Corporation) Acronym—SIRP S.p.A. "S.p.A." is the Italian acronym for "Company Limited". The name by which it is best known however, is "Ital Design". The purpose of establishing this corporation was to supply car manufacturers with car production services, from the design level to full scale tests of running prototypes, mass production plans and modernization of assembly lines and also time motion cost studies for each component.

This was very different from typical Carrozzeria (coachbuilders) in Turin, especially where management is concerned and its success drew much attention from the industry. Perhaps nobody thought they would be so successful, but in fact, Ital Design moved to the top of the car design field within a few years of its inception.

Giugiaro's outstanding genius and very high technical ability which carrozzeria do not often possess made it possible for Ital to succeed. Ital Design specialized in new model cars design and production lines, for example, Hyundai in Korea and Skoda in Czechoslovakia, were early customers.

Giugiaro's consultancy services were in demand, leading directly to the creation of Italdesign. Giugiaro designed the Alfa Romeo Alfasud - a mass market car to be made in a new factory in the south of Italy. In charge of the project was Rudolf Hruska, while Giugiaro and Italdesign had to refine the design, all the engineering, build the prototypes and see the project right through to the tooling stage.

To Wilhelm Karmann the young Giorgio Giugiaro is a great talent, he promises the owner of the still very small company "Ital Design" to provide support with at least one order for a prototype per year. Wilhelm Karmann's intuition and foresight would soon be confirmed: Giorgio Giugiaro today is one of the most famous automobile designers in the world.

Abarth 1600 1969 Turin Show, Prototype




Rear engined 2+2 GT with short rear overhang like the "Manta". Giugiaro liked a longer front overhang and a shorter rear overhang at this time. The rear of Abarth 1600 had a flap with an automatic variable angle system like the Corrado. Note how the belt line kicks up after the thin "B" pillar. The curve in near belt line is similar to the reverse of the hood line. The large greenhouse reduces the overall mass. Notice the step in the door panel (rub strip location on the MK1 Scirocco) that is near centered on the wheel wells. Some of the Giugiaro formula for the MK1 Scirocco can be found in the early Prototypes form Ital Design. The proportions of the vertical door section are nearly the same. I don't want to get too far ahead and start talking about the MK1 Scirocco just yet because some twists are still ahead.

1970 Turin Show, Prototype VW/Porsche "Tapiro"



VW and Porsche developed and sold the 914 combining their own strong points as they did with the 356 of the early days. It was not a great success. In order to explore the concept, they asked three designers, Giugiaro, Albrecht Goertz and Jacques Cooper how the near future Porsche would look. VW conducted a design contest and Giugiaro's work was selected as the winner. The VW/Porsche "Tapiro" ended as just a prototype project. This styling theme (Mangusta) was pursued in a more modern and geometrical way. The 4 gullwings were very futuristic. "Tapiro" is an Italian word meaning a tapir, an imaginary animal, that eats dreams.

Giugiaro Karmann Cheetah proposal

As we know the Karmann Ghia is soon to be obsolete. Karmann and Giugiaro propose this 2 seat solution. Now that Giugiaro is no longer working for Ghia they had to come up with a different name for the car. This is an early drawing from some time in 1970.



The EA 398 1970 VW Karmann "Cheetah" shown at the 1971 Geneva Show, Prototype

Giugiaro continued to research advanced design while he developed mass production models with a high chance of reaching production. This Karmann Cheetah and the Tapiro began the start of the Giugiaro's wedge period. This 2-seater spider named "Cheetah" was designed with the intention that it might serve as a replacement for the Karmann Ghia. It was requested by coach builder Karmann. It is a rear engine layout using a VW Beetle chassis. The body is wedge shape giving sharp impression with vivid edges. The bumper nose cone is made of soft material. It had retractable headlights. The frames of the side windows are also used as roll bars. the two B pillars joined up to the door frame and windshield creating a cage. This may have been the inspiration for the Bertone Xl/9. The intention was to share as many components as possible with the forthcoming Beetle replacement (EA 266). In 1970 Volkswagen's President Kurt Lotz was not interested in the Cheetah because it was too much like the 914.




"Tapiro"and "Cheetah"





EA 272 1970-1971

Giugiaro recalls Kurt Lotz saying 'Do what you want, but do it fast.'
Giugiaro was fast and delivered a detailed presentation by May 1970.

The first Passat looked like a larger scale Scirocco front, and had Golf styling DNA. Giugiaro made the hood flat to go with the flat tail. Notice that the EA 272 does not have crease rub strip that runs horizontal between the wheel wells. The insets in the fenders that extend the bumpers are not yet integrated into the design. The one in the front fender looks like an afterthought or perhaps a longer bumper was intended. This was Giugiaro's vision for the Passat however he struggled with the overall length of the Audi platform with the slopping rear. This prototype must have been in development in 1971 and finished in 1972.





The big change at VW

Lotz set in motion a massive new-model investment strategy that would help save VW. However, neither the German government (which still had a major stake in VW) nor the out-spoken German media acknowledge it. They called Lotz a failure, an incompetent manager, a time waster, forced changes. One of the most damaging magazine stories headlined: "Volkswagen Lotz of Trouble." It did not help that Lotz was a Christian Democrat politician, at a time when the federal and Lower Saxony governments were at opposition to Social Democrats. Rudolf Leiding, at Audi, could see a final battle brewing. Leiding, a production specialist, had spent time at Volkswagen of North America, had built up VW's Kassel factory, and had been sent south to run the new Audi-NSU division. He served two years in South America, during which he made a success of VW's Brazilian subsidiary, then returned to Audi-NSU. Leiding cannily refused a promotion to be Lotz's vice-chairman, where he would have been tainted by the growing crisis. Lotz, with the end of his four-year contract approaching, resigned rather than be pushed out, and Leiding moved smoothly into his place as VW's chairman. In October 1971, only three weeks after Lotz walked away from Wolfsburg, Rudolf Leiding cancelled EA266.

EA266, Beetle replacement
In October 1971, only three weeks after Lotz walked away from Wolfsburg, Rudolf Leiding can-celled EA266, not delayed, not asked for a redesign, but cancelled it completely. Tens of millions of dollars had already been spent on research and development, and many contracts for production tooling, particularly for body panels, had already been placed. No matter. Porsche was ordered to scrap every single prototype. Apparently, most of them were crushed during military tank testing programs! Drawings were burned, photographs destroyed. One prototype was reputedly preserved.




Even as EA266 work was underway at Porsche, VW technical director Holste and his staff were busy with their own in-house projects. They were inching toward the idea of building a front engine car with front wheel drive. Their first effort, coded EA276, was conceived in 1969. It was a rather boxy affair with an air cooled Beetle flat-four engine mounted ahead of the front wheels, which were driven through a new transaxle. The suspension was inspired by that of the Super Beetle, with MacPherson front struts and rear trailing arms with transverse torsion bars. The EA276 was a one-off, as was the EA272 of 1970, in which Holste's team took the theme a stage further. This time, they used a water cooled inline four designed in house by VW. (It's now clear that there was more rivalry than cooperation between VW and Audi during this late 1960s period, It made no sense for both companies to be developing their own new small four cylinder engines.)

EA276




This is the point that I say VW becomes low the end of Audi. True that VW is a large company and Audi is a small part of the overall operation but if you look at the product direction and who is running VW at tis point you may conclude that FWD water cooled Audi type cars are about to replace the Porsche rear engine that VW was founded with. If you have paying attention you will notice that VW is not interested in sports cars. VW is a people mover provider. Killing off the EA 266 sent the Porsche team to develop the Porsche 924 using an Audi motor from VW industrial trucks. Killing the EA 266 meant that the Karmann Cheetah was never going into production. Both Porsche and Karmann were looking to save jobs. Times were tough in West Germany.

[Doug T]

Passat based on the existing Audi 80



Kurt Lotz, seen as disruptive politely and very unpopular with the automotive labor unions, resigned as chairman of VW on 13 September 1971. Rudolf Leiding from Audi took over as VW chairman at that time. The new president Rudolf drastically revised the Passat project.

A meeting took place when Rudolf Leiding took over VW. The first Passat frightened Volkswagen management and new president Rudolf Leidling in particular. The EA 272 was cancelled and Giugiaro was asked to base the Passat on the existing Audi 80. As a result design of the production Passat looked like a mess with curves of Audi 80 and the flat back of the EA 272 grafted on. The new Passat became a combination of the floor, the front, and the doors of the Audi 80 and original EA 272 proposal from 1970. Giugiaro has never been happy with the compromise. Despite solid sales, the Passat has always lacked real flair up until the B5. Volkswagen's attempt at a bigger, up market model has fallen short of buyers' expectations. The production B1 Passat was seen as just an Audi with a few modifications to many.
Something good did come of that meeting. Volkswagen asked Giugiaro to plan the model that would become the Golf (see Golf).



Now that the Karmann Cheetah is canceled, the Passat is a flawed design and Giugiaro has the contract for the Golf he begins to think about a different sports coupe.



In the drawings above you can see some more of the Scirocco's Design DNA. In 1971 the Scirocco is just a collection of ideas in Giugiaro's creative tool box. The B1 Passat's design had many constraints due to the Audi it is built on and the direction set by VW to use the Audi's front and doors for the production model. The trim strip from the early Audi's carries over to the production Passat. The somewhat soft crease that extends the length of the Scirocco and joins the headlights to the tail lights is just like the same detail that was used on the EA 272. I believe Giugiaro added some of the lower horizontal creases to break up the mass of the sides on the Scirocco and Golf but it is very possible that the details were forced in from the Audi 80. We see the lower rub strip details in Giugiaro's earlier work from 1967 and in the Audi Assio concept that is starts in 1972. The thicker "C" pillar carries over to both the Scirocco and the Passat from the early Audi variant (wagon). As I mentioned before the wide horizontal grill form the Audi is reused on the Passat and carries over to both the Golf and Scirocco.

The proportions of the VW A1 Golf and Scirocco, which a lot of people think are beautiful, has got good balance between body size and position of the wheels in relation to the body and shows stability and a comfortable figure. One of the reasons why Giugiaro's works of art create a good impression is that he has a very strict attitude towards the proportions of cars. Especially regarding the side view, he is severe regarding the length of the front and rear overhang. Giugiaro, who has done many designs for FWD cars, which have got their running gear concentrated in the front wheel area, the front overhang inevitably become long therefore by shortening the rear overhang, the visual balance of the car can be maintained. It is true that if the rear overhang is short, the impression is one of shortness and briskness, therefore, most of Giugiaro's work have a long front and a short back ratio of side proportions, regardless of the running gear layout configuration. The VW Passat and the Audi 80 are exceptions, perhaps because of the necessity for a larger space for luggage. The character and attraction of cars differ according to how practicality and aesthetics are combined.

Golf EA 400

Volkswagen asked Giugiaro to plan the model that would become the Golf and once again time was of the essence. Wolfsburg did not require any preliminary sketches, or drawings for approval, all they wanted was a full size model as soon as possible. Within just three months Italdesign had delivered a model of the proposed Golf and Wolfsburg gave the project a go-ahead within days. Volkswagen were fully committed to the project and even made a company airplane available so Giugiaro could commute between Turin and Wolfsburg. His complete control of the project meant that the purity of the original shape would survive almost intact. But once Volkswagen had decided to export the Golf to America prevailing regulations had to be taken into account. As a result the windshield was made more upright. Overhang at the front was increased by 2.Sin (70mm) and the hood was lengthened and flattened. This squared up the front end from the noticeably softer proposal. Lack of time meant that sympathetic changes to the flat surfaces could not be made and maybe that is just as well. It is difficult to find a more cleanly executed contemporary front end. Just two small details were changed were to do with saving production costs and both related to the lights. At the back the light clusters were shrunk, which Giugiaro felt was a big mistake as they started to look lost and visually 'wobbled'. When the Golf was given a facelift in 1981 he was much happier with the larger light housings, which were closer to the original design. At the front the proposed oblong headlamps were dumped on grounds of cost and replaced by off the shelf circular ones. This last change worried Giugiaro who felt that he was repeating himself after combining a rectangular grille and round headlights in the Giulia GT. Giugiaro can be credited with the innovative use of the full width grille and integral headlamps on the Alfa Sprint.




The Scirocco EA398

This is a very early sketch of the MK1 from Giugiaro:



Giugiaro put together the MK1 Scirocco proposal (Extending the EA 398 project). Giugiaro believed the Golf was too small, and he believed that short Golf could not compete with larger car models like the Fiat 128. The problem was that the dimensions were set. Giugiaro turned these restrictions into an advantage with a revolutionary shape that evolved into the Golf. Even so, he pointed out that such a short wheelbase would make the perfect basis for a 2+2 coupe.

As the problems for Volkswagen President Kurt Lotz mounted Giugiaro decided to take matters into his own hands. As Rudolf Leidling assumed control of Volkswagen, the Giugiaro went direct to Karmann with his revised proposal to create a new 2+2 coupe on the short Golf wheelbase. Karmann felt strongly enough about the 2+2 project that they decided to present the project officially to Wolfsburg. VW was not interested in the idea at first. VW listened to the proposal only because Scirocco was to be built on the A1 Chassis (GG was working on). VW eventually went for it, BUT only if KARMANN 100% funded the project. Later VW spent some money on the program.


The "Caimano", "Boomerang" "Tapiro" and "Cheetah" started the style period known as Giugiaro's "folding paper" period . The VW "Golf" and "Scirocco 1" appear to be part of that period but are not compleetly part of it. If they were really "folding paper models" then they should have been insipid real sheets of sheet metal and the designs would have been short lived as were so many other cars copied from Giugiaro's early "folding paper" designs. The VW "Golf" and "Scirocco", look like square boxes at a first glance, The shape of the "Golf" and "Scirocco" seems to be square but on close examination it turns out that they are quite rounded. Even though from a side view they appear to be square two-box type you can see how curved the areas are where the sides connect with the upper, lower and horizontal areas. Seemingly flat surfaces are governed by curves seen in the engine hood and the front fender and in the rear quarter and rear end. This delicate mating of surfaces and the balance achieved illustrates Giugiaro's exclusive sense of design. I believe the curves are part of the Audi 90 / second Passat B1 family styling. The Scirocco as "Cheetah" was a folded paper design. When Giugiaro was forced to change the first Passat's ftat surfaces (that VW did not like) the Scirocco 1 DNA became more rounded to fit the family styling that was agreed upon for VW's water cooled direction.

Now that the project was active and the design language understood and approved Giugiaro worked up a 1/2 model quickly and had it sent to Karmann.



William Schwebe Design Manager for Karmann.



William Schwebes Biography:
Born November 26, 1927 in Kloster Oesede. After finishing school and in April of 1942 he began training at Karmann as a steel fitter. Because of his outstanding achievements the technical office promoted him after only one year. There he became a draftsman. Wilhelm was one of very few designers in the Karmann works that carried out new developments of the postwar period. He was invalved in the beetle convertible and the Karmann Ghia.. In 1969 he developed the Brazil, the Karmann-Ghia coupe do Brasil. In Osnabruck the Scirocco 1 was developed under his direction as wasr the BMW Coupe 633, the Scirocco 2 and the Corrado.

Quotes from Will Schwebe from a personal interview with Doug T in 2008,

Q) -What was your roll on the Scirocco 1 project?
A)- was the responsible Design Manager for Karmann KG in Osnabruck. At that time the I completely developed the Scirocco for VW. Volkswagen only did the final tests. This then included For example, Things like a 100,000 km duration test or sine Material tests, e.g. May 8000 Scirocco on the tailgate open and close to hit to reveal material weaknesses. Also the Crash Tests were just a matter for VW."

Q) -Did you enjoy working with Giugiaro on the Scirocco 1?
A) -The Scirocco was styled completely and designed in Italy by Giugiaro. The car looked almost like a small Fiat 126 when it arrive at Karmann. The Scirocco i was a stylistic masterpiece by Giugiaro. It was easy, the proportions.]

Q) -How long did it take you and you staff to convert the model from Ital to final tooling?
A) For the Scirocco were 1 it is about 70,000 hours.

Q) -How was VW to work with?
A) -VW has always been a difficult customer. In the Scirocco 1 study, for example: the wife of Professor Ernst Fiala, of the VW board (development), was testing the tailgate lock when a finger nail broken off. After which the construction was revised.

This is a picture of 1/2 1:1 model that Giugiaro provided to Karmann:




Karmann did make several changes to the MK1 Scirocco. The Scirocco was the first A1 in tooling and Karmann's tool makers worked with Giugiaro directly on the Scirocco as well as many other projects including the Ace series for Audi and BMW. The Scirocco's tail spoiler is an example of a change that Karmann made. VW wanted the Scirocco to have a tail spoiler that Giugiaro did not include in the design. The Scirocco was not doing well in the wind tunnel test. VW started drawing up some tack on spoilers. Will Schwebe of Karmann did not want the Scirocco to have an extra expensive tacked on spoiler. Will and a few Karmann staff members worked through the night to built a full size hatch with the small spoiler and reverse bend on the surface that the badges sit on. He presented his solution to VW. The change was incorporated into the MK1 Scirocco.

Scirocco's tail spoiler testing



This is the Scirocco with the hatch with the small spoiler and the reverse bend on the rear surface that was presented to VW:



Later Karmann drawing for tooling:



Both EA 398 and EA 400 vehicles shared the same 94.5 inch wheelbase platform, along with front-wheel drive engine/transmissions and suspension layouts from the EA 276. Many of the more stylish details that were rejected from the Golf were allowed on the Scirocco such as the slopped (raked) windshield, custom TV set rectangular lights (and narrow grill with the duel rounds) and the longer wrap around taillights. The MK1 Golf and MK1 Scirocco have family styling, This is because Giugiaro was given the design responsibility for both projects and VW agreed that Giugiaro 's work was not to be altered or questioned (unlike the Passat B1).

[Doug T]

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[killercoconuts]

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[CodeMan]

In for an educational thread.

[TBerk]

In for an educational thread.

MuHAhahahah... Of course I am just a Hack, but I can also emulate Catalyst Mode from time to time...

[Doug T]

I think you got an answer to your question....

[matt.e.]

Wow, history overload. I must read this tonight when I'm awake. I miss my Audi 100 LS, almost bought another a few years back, oh well.

[MickR]

Great stuff - where did it originally come from? I'd love to read it all today but I have too much work to do...

[Doug T]

Great stuff - where did it originally come from? I'd love to read it all today but I have too much work to do...

I developed this report for Scirocco Tech last year. The information came from 100s of sources from my library and my own personal interviews with Karmann employees and Ital staff. I had to translate several letters and discussions from German, Italian and Japaneses. This is an early draft. The later draft is now lost on Scirocco Tech.

[killercoconuts]

damn, i only read a little bit on my lunch at work, but this should be either stickied or put in the DIY FAQ section!

[euroteknique]

did anyone notice the delorian? clip the nose and the car was a near replica
so who had the original idea and who stole the design

1970 Turin Show, Prototype VW/Porsche "Tapiro"

[mr.brown]

+1 for sticky-ing this

Maybe our esteemed moderator could change the thread title also?

Oh, and fascinating stuff Mr.T

[TBerk]

... I was reminiscing over a Audi 100 I used to have. It had a lot of seemingly Daimler Benz type tech in it.
And of course we all recall Giorgetto Giugiaro had lots to do w/ the body and general outcome of the Scirocco body work. But there where others as well. (btw- I have been having lots of fun w/ this site: Giugiaro's Italdesign )
So it seems the Audi 100 MkI might be a Maternal Grandfather...

- Insert Scirocco History MOAB Daisy Cutter type post...

I think you got an answer to your question....

Yepper. I love design, form following function, following form.

I developed this report for Scirocco Tech last year. The information came from 100s of sources from my library and my own personal interviews with Karmann employees and Ital staff. I had to translate several letters and discussions from German, Italian and Japaneses. This is an early draft. The later draft is now lost on Scirocco Tech.

Can we not recover that later version? (Contact me offline and point in the right direction...)

+1 for sticky-ing this
Maybe our esteemed moderator could change the thread title also?
Oh, and fascinating stuff Mr.T

Well, As much as I enjoy being part of history and all, If this was going to Go Sticky then I'd think we'd want to trim the original post all together. Doug's info is strong enough to stand on it own and the original title is what it was meant to be.
(I'm disappointed at the moment w/ my lack of satisfactory self expression over this seemingly minor point.)

Where did Sciroccos Come From?

I suppose that would work...

Edit- Huh, So far it seems I can trim the Title of my originating post but not the Ultimate Thread title itself.

[Iroczgirl]

Thank you Doug!!

[Rocco.loco]

Great write up, Doug!! I've read many articles on VWs watercooled development but never anything to this depth and insight.
My brother bought a Rabbit in '75, the first year they were brought into Canada. I drove it that summer and was so impressed, I bought a '76 the next year. For a guy with a young family, it was such a better solution than the '70 Cougar XR7 I had been driving. I've had a water cooled VW of some sort ever since.

[Doug T]

Great write up, Doug!! I've read many articles on VWs watercooled development but never anything to this depth and insight.:

Thanks, I wish I could post the full version. I have more details on the development but this will get you started.

[Sanityana]

Thanks for posting, great information!

[Neptuno]

Thanks for posting, great information!

DougT is a wealth of information...do you guys know that he poped his head in the hatch of my scirocco....he explained the early 1982 conversion to the new body style using the existing plates from the s1 sciroccos and the addition of new metal to create the extra room in the s2's. no script, no prepared notes just his brain and a little cincy tech time!

Privileged to see stuff like this!

[Sturm]

Excellent read

A good read is the book "The Karmann Story, Germany's Coachbuilder to the World" by Dieter Knust, out of print, but fortunately Wilhelm Schwebe's colleague at Karmann, Heinrich Breford, head of the plastics research department at Karmann (we jokingly always blame him for any squeeks and rattles on the interior of the Rocco and Rado) gave me a spare copy at a meet near Osnabrück back in 2005

More interesting stuff was circulated at that meet by Schwebe such as the Corrado Project Completion Report, which nicely describes the mounting problems between VW and Karmann over the Corrado, and ultimately provides a better understanding why both companies almost were at loggerheads at one point further down the line in the 90s (apart from the massive fallout over Karmann sueing Porsche over patent infringements over the similarity in design of the upcoming Boxster - which rescued Porsche from bankruptcy (just had an ailing 928 and 911) - and Karmann's own Idea prototype; an issue which had Wilhelm Karmann still been at the helm at that point of time rather than the Recaro-recruited Rainer Thieme, probably would have never flared up as it did, eventually killing off all contract work from VW, which then led to Mercedes work and the Crossfire for Mercedes).

Lots of history that Doug and in similar ways I preach across the globe, sometimes much to the laughter of some Corrado and also Rocco owners, amongst whom there simply are too many who do get offended by e.g. the Corrado being called a Scirocco Mk3, wondering what the Karmann badge on the centre console inside the Corrado is there for (some even highlighting the "rare Karmann interior" in ebay sales adverts ), not to mention the Karmann Ghia bridage who stubbornly fail to appreciate the Mk1 Scirocco as the successor to the Karmann Ghia, or best of all laughing at me that I tend to remove VW badges on my Karmann type 53s, and even sometimes go as far as replacing them with Karmann logos (which is very similar to the coat of arms of the city of Osnabrück)

Last but not least: Willy Schwebe, as he is affectionately known (saw him and Breford last in Dissen near Osnabrück during a meet beginning of September 2011, and most likely again this year in Dissen) was the chief construction engineer at Karmann, as he will point out, his job was to construct things. For example he designed and constructed the recessed rear hatch hinges on the Corrado thanks to a patented grub screw, patent for which he produced during a meet in 2008at the Nürburgring, commenting on the cheap nasty solution he referred to as plague-bumps on the current new Scirocco. His reaction to the new Scirocco was hilarious, after he had verbally taken the car apart on all sorts of construction and design issues that he would have done completely differently and more elegantly, he summarised everything by walking away from the thing waving his hands at it in utter disgust - genius!

Sturm

[TBerk]

I'm very proud of my thread, which I contributed only a beginning to- and have it exceed my expectations by leaps and bounds.

Symbolically speaking, I'd have been happy w/ Trade School and my little thread approaches a Doctorate... Thx to some very weighty contributions.


Thank you all.
TBerk

[Doug T]

Excellent read ...................................Sturm

Nice to see the 928 driver over on this side for a change.

[Sturm]

Nice to see the 928 driver over on this side for a change.

Doug, yes, indeed, too many projects on the go, too little time, as usual. Plans still exist to make the jump across the big pond ... yeah, I know, been promised for too long.

928? Until last night was in this state:


Sturm

[Doug T]

I had on idea that Morgen was responsible for the valve covers on the UK version of the 928....

during a meet in 2008at the Nürburgring,
Sturm

That sounds like great fun.

[midlman]

Your coolant reservoir is on the wrong side ... unless it's a right hand drive model?...UK or Aus?

Doug, yes, indeed, too many projects on the go, too little time, as usual. Plans still exist to make the jump across the big pond ... yeah, I know, been promised for too long.

928? Until last night was in this state:


Sturm

[Doug T]

Eric's (Sturm) home is known as "Karmann" of the UK: