FYI - 2005.5-2007 Timing Chain Issues

[nothing-leaves-stock]

dave(head tech) did it to see what would happen...it skipped.
then he showed me....skipped again.
proved it in person to me!

[Fudgey Memory]

motor was saved, new parts are in and working great. no more noises. no more codes....and NO $4200 bill at the dealer!

What was the bill?

[ian254]

I have a question about the timing chain tensioner. Is there any way it can be replaced with the post 2008 tensioner using the original chain? What I am getting at is can the upper tensioner be replaced without removing the chain?

[Hung2low]

So are u saying I can just get the upper tensioners replaced?

[bcplayer07]

Technically its possible just to replace the tensioner, but good luck finding someone with the cam lockers whose going to just replace the tensioner.

Cough up the extra $200 for the chain and the few other parts, and call it a day.

[ian254]

Do you really need to lock the cam if you aren't removing the chain? I guess really the question is can it be done without removing really anything other then the tensioner and guides?

[nothing-leaves-stock]

you MUST remove the chains to do the tensioners. and you can NOT do the chains without the cam tool.. impossible.

why cheap out? do it right and your safe and done.

We replace EVERYTHING in there...2 chains, tenioners, guids, rear main seal, coolant seals, coolant flush, oil change, sealer cleaner etc
$1699 parts and labor.
dealer was $2800 crazy....

[classicjetta]

Good to know what a reasonable shop charges.

[nothing-leaves-stock]

customer got the car towed in here form the dealer. they told me the dealer said "you had a noise, and a cam timing code. you need a $4500-5000 repair to fix it."

they did have a noise ONCE on start up, which is the start of the issue and a cam code. but the car started and had no noise after 5 seconds. we did the chanisn and all...NO noise, no code, no damage, no $4500-5000 bill.

so if you hear the noise once..STOP, get it towed and fixed OR you will get a bigger build. and the new parts are the udated parts and you'll be ok for a long time.

[A1an]

This is interesting - there was a post either in here or the MKV forum from a guy who's son's car died and he tried to push start it and somehow the engine apparently got spun backwards and tweaked his timing. The OP questioned whether it was a timing chain failure but it came out that it was more likely due to the push starting than to any parts failure.

I remember the thread and I think that car rolled backwards down a hill when they tried to push start, causing the problem.

customer got the car towed in here form the dealer. they told me the dealer said "you had a noise, and a cam timing code. you need a $4500-5000 repair to fix it."

they did have a noise ONCE on start up, which is the start of the issue and a cam code. but the car started and had no noise after 5 seconds. we did the chanisn and all...NO noise, no code, no damage, no $4500-5000 bill.

so if you hear the noise once..STOP, get it towed and fixed OR you will get a bigger build. and the new parts are the udated parts and you'll be ok for a long time.

Too bad you guys aren't down here in FL. I have a hard time trusting some of the european shops in my area.

[truwagen]

you MUST remove the chains to do the tensioners. and you can NOT do the chains without the cam tool.. impossible.

why cheap out? do it right and your safe and done.

We replace EVERYTHING in there...2 chains, tenioners, guids, rear main seal, coolant seals, coolant flush, oil change, sealer cleaner etc
$1699 parts and labor.
dealer was $2800 crazy....

The OP says that only the upper chain/tensioners/guides need replaced. Sounds like you replaced both upper and lower chains (and did you pull the engine)? Curious to hear your thoughts on just replacing the upper chain and associated hardware.

[nothing-leaves-stock]

why would you cheap out and only fix ONE part of the issue? the lower tensioner is the SAME design as the upper...so it can do the SAME issue. if we are doing a 2.5L chain job...we are doing EVERY part in there, once and done and SAFE and RIGHT with the newer parts

pull the trans to do the job NOT the motor.

[thygreyt]

Too bad you guys aren't down here in FL. I have a hard time trusting some of the european shops in my area.

lol, if you ever need any help, let me know.

i know a couple of shops in tampa, gainesville, orlando, lakeland and the south...

[VAGMeister]

Are all 200.5-2007 models susceptible to this timing chain issue? From my observation from on this technical forum, the main affected model is the Jetta. Has this happened to anyone with a Rabbit?

[Shtbox]

quick question. when this cam code comes up, does it illuminate the CEL at all? or is the code stored with no CEL?

[nothing-leaves-stock]

cam code will throw a CEL.
i have only done this on a jetta not sure on the rabbit...nor know why there would be a differnce

[mhjett]

I remember the thread and I think that car rolled backwards down a hill when they tried to push start, causing the problem.

Now that you mention it, I think you're right. Can't remember what year the car was.

Are all 200.5-2007 models susceptible to this timing chain issue? From my observation from on this technical forum, the main affected model is the Jetta. Has this happened to anyone with a Rabbit?

I don't think there's any difference. I've read of issues with both early Rabbits and early Jettas.

[A1an]

Doubt it would be segregated to one single model...motors came from the same assembly line in Mexico despite the Rabbit being assembled in German.

[Geo]

The early 2.0t FSI had 2 possible cams to drive the HPFP, an A and B spec. The only way to verify the cam installed is to remove a cover and visually inspect it.

Is there to tell with any serial numbers if the timing chain tensioners/guides installed on the 2.5 could be the ones prone to failure?

is there a visual difference if you were to remove the upper timing cover?

[VAGMeister]

Doubt it would be segregated to one single model...motors came from the same assembly line in Mexico despite the Rabbit being assembled in German.

My Rabbit's window sticker says the engine was made in Germany. I have been lurking this technical forum for a while and have seen nothing but Jetta experiences. Furthermore, a good friend of mine in a shop foreman at a VW dealership in SoCal and he has only seen Jettas and New Beetles come in for this code. Probably because there are a lot more Jettas on the road.

[mhjett]

My Rabbit's window sticker says the engine was made in Germany. I have been lurking this technical forum for a while and have seen nothing but Jetta experiences. Furthermore, a good friend of mine in a shop foreman at a VW dealership in SoCal and he has only seen Jettas and New Beetles come in for this code. Probably because there are a lot more Jettas on the road.

I'm not sure where the Jetta engines were built. Was the Rabbit also built in Puebla or did it come from Brazil? Come to think of it I can't say whether I've ever heard of anybody with early Rabbit having chain issues.

[Trua]

I believe that the engine in my rabbit came from Mexico and the transmission from Argentina. The rabbits are made in Wolfsburg Germany.

[DUSlider]

The Jetta outsold the Rabbit almost 10-1 in the model years affected. So I'm not surprised we haven't heard these issues with Rabbits yet.

[bcplayer07]

why would you cheap out and only fix ONE part of the issue? the lower tensioner is the SAME design as the upper...so it can do the SAME issue. if we are doing a 2.5L chain job...we are doing EVERY part in there, once and done and SAFE and RIGHT with the newer parts

pull the trans to do the job NOT the motor.

While it is obviously recommended to replace all o the seals, guides chains, tensioners etc. Not everyone has $1600 to fork out on it.

The bottom tensionor is a similar design, but is not nearly as prone to failure as the upper tensioner. removing the transmission or motor is not needed to replace the upper chain, guides, tensioner and seals. What this mean for us, is that; if you starting to hear noise, and like me drive over 1000 miles a week. you can get your upper chain fixed, and then later get the lower chain fixed. for the average person this is a much more logical approach. When know you like to "leave nothing stock" "and to just replace it all" but If it isn't broke, or isn't failing. Why waste your money.

[Trua]

My original motor started to make a weird sound coming from the chain area. It had 104k on the engine. The current motor that I have now has 44k on it and it runs smoother

[bcplayer07]

My original motor started to make a weird sound coming from the chain area. It had 104k on the engine. The current motor that I have now has 44k on it and it runs smoother

Cool Story Bro

[Schwarz_Jetta]

add this to your oil...

http://www.amazon.com/LubroMoly-MoS2...+anti+friction

it should help quite down the MOTOR noises (valvetrain and such)..

in my guesstimate, if there is still noise, its not the motor.. it could be the chain.

I Tried this stuff and in my opinion it reduces the noise the 2.5l motor produces. I honestly thought that i encountered this problem because my engine made a weird noise, almost like a slapping noise, but when i poured a bottle of the MoS2 it went away. Definitely recommend this stuff. Knock on wood this never happens to me, but due to my recent panic attack about this chain/tensioner problem i've come across something interesting in my research. I'll try to find the link and post up here, but there was another dubber who ran across this problem and instead of replacing it with a newer model 2.5l he replaced it with a 3.2lv6, i think its the r32 motor but it had audi badges on it. that seems like an awesome engine swap. Speaking of engine swaps, anyone know if its plausible to swap 2.0T for the 2.5l?

[PhAyzoN]

Speaking of engine swaps, anyone know if its plausible to swap 2.0T for the 2.5l?

I don't see why not, the GLI and GTI are the 2.0T flavors of our 2.5L Jettas and Rabbits.

[Schwarz_Jetta]

I don't see why not, the GLI and GTI are the 2.0T flavors of our 2.5L Jettas and Rabbits.

I agree, however i've read on different forums that its not easy to do because the wiring harnesses are different.

[nickbeezy]

I Tried this stuff and in my opinion it reduces the noise the 2.5l motor produces. I honestly thought that i encountered this problem because my engine made a weird noise, almost like a slapping noise, but when i poured a bottle of the MoS2 it went away. Definitely recommend this stuff.

MoS2 is some good stuff, i use it as well in my motor.

[alwaysdutch]

With all respect to those that can fix the problem for $1,500-$2,000, I had 92K miles on mine and bought an '08 engine with 17K on it. Spent $1,600 including tools and rental hoist. I am glad I did it that way. No issues since......

[Schwarz_Jetta]

With all respect to those that can fix the problem for $1,500-$2,000, I had 92K miles on mine and bought an '08 engine with 17K on it. Spent $1,600 including tools and rental hoist. I am glad I did it that way. No issues since......

Hey dutch, when you swapped your motor which engine model did you go with CBTA or CBUA? I know there shouldn't be much of a difference but when i tryed running a part search at a local wrecker the CBTA returned results for 08+ models, but when i ran the CBUA it returned results with 07+ models. I know they switched the motor midway through the 07 years from the BGP and BGQ to either the CBTA or CBUA. Regardless though i think so long as its the CBTA or CBUA models the tensioner issue should be fixed right?

[Champ6]

This is from a post on another forum, but fits well here. This is out 2005.5 Jetta

As far as the 2.5: I probably won't keep it long. It's a mystery in many
regards. It was a VW CPO car with 48,000 miles on it when we bought it, and a 24
mo 24,000 mile bmper to bumper CPO warranty. And we used the warranty a lot,
from damaged driver door wiring, secondary air pump, some other emmissions thing
that I've forgotten, control arm bushings, odd rattles, and leaking AC.

Because we thought early on that it might be a maintenance hog, we decided to
pay VW to do the routine stuff including oil changes so there could be no doubt
that it was done and with VW approved oil. That may have saved our bacon.

28 days out of warranty, my wife was driving along when the timing jumped. Just
going slowly on a residential road, and it quits and won't restart. She's not a
blonde, and is very aware of gauges and odd sounds. She heard nothing prior to
it stopping, but when she called me, she said it sounded odd cranking with a
light ticking too. That of course was a few valves banging on the piston crowns.

Now just 3 days earlier, I had changed the oil using Liqui Moly and a Mann
filter. Ironically, I also had taken a sample of the old oil and sent it to
Blackstone Labs for analysis. When the results came back, it showed excessive
iron and chromium. They indicated this is usually from poorly wearing rings and
cylinders. Huh? So knowing that, I had VW save all the parts for me, so I could
see if I saw anything that would account for that. I saw nothing and took
everything to an independent VW mechanic, who also saw nothing that indicated
why it jumped timing, and nothing in those parts that would cause excessive iron
or chromium to be in the oil.

The dealer had no explaination as to why the engine jumped timing.This dealer
had only seen one other 2.5 do this, and it had been rattling long before it
quit. All my chain guides were in good condition, the tensioner appeared to be
working correctly, nothing looked wrong. The machine shop doing the head work
determined that when the valves bent, it made some of the guides out of round,
and not even VW could get new guides, just a new $3,100 head. That was a no go
for us and a used head was installed.

As far as cost: The initial estimates were from $2,800 to nearly $5,000. We had
a good going around with VWoA, and they covered $2,000 in parts (even the used
head with some help of the dealer), probably because my wife has had nothing but VW's since 1967, and myself, mostly VW's since 1990. Our final out-of-pocket was just under
$1,400.

So what happened? I don't know. Will we keep the car? We like it, but now have
our doubts about long term reliability, so in the next year or so we will
probably trade it. And not likely on another VW.

[Finkle56]

Mine went, threw a code that day.

VW here in Canada offered money to buy the car back and offered me a re finance on a newer model ( increased payments and another 2 years back on the finance) I asked for the engine to be replaced or some of the cost to be covered and they said no. Turns out to get a dealership to replace the engine or do the work was between 5000 to 10000 ( higher was for a refurb certified engine)

Ended up at a local dealer, he found me a 2008 engine with 70K on it and put it in for 3000 total. No issues so far but I listen for the sound at every oil check and changes. That way i am staying on top of it and I, fingers crossed, won't have this happen anytime soon.

Still wondering if the newer engine has the fix though

[alwaysdutch]

Hey dutch, when you swapped your motor which engine model did you go with CBTA or CBUA? I know there shouldn't be much of a difference but when i tryed running a part search at a local wrecker the CBTA returned results for 08+ models, but when i ran the CBUA it returned results with 07+ models. I know they switched the motor midway through the 07 years from the BGP and BGQ to either the CBTA or CBUA. Regardless though i think so long as its the CBTA or CBUA models the tensioner issue should be fixed right?

I bought a CBTA engine for $1,000 with 17K on it, including harness, ECU and all sensors.....