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    Thread: What's the ultimate IDI build for economy?

    1. 07-04-2012 01:34 PM #1
      Speaking about slightly modified, mostly stock parts, no serious machining or crazy expensive parts.

      I'm thinking a 1V with a giles rebuilt pump, junkyard intercooler, and maybe a little head work. AGS tranny and thin tires.

    2. 07-04-2012 03:23 PM #2
      Or maybe a 1V head/pump with a 1.5 block.

    3. Member wut_cel's Avatar
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      07-07-2012 03:04 AM #3
      Subscribed.. Planning on playing around in the diesel world soon. Care to elaborate on what you're building? What's IDI stand for?

    4. Member Rockerchick's Avatar
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      07-07-2012 10:48 AM #4
      Do you mean 1Z? Not heard of 1V.

      And IDI means indirect injection. All of these old diesels are that. The turbo diesels are known as TD's, not TDIs.

      If you want to get into the diesel world, I suggest a lot of reading. vwdiesel.net is a good start. If you go into the "General" forum there is a link on how to register.
      Quote Originally Posted by TM87 View Post
      VW-making mechanics out of owners since 1957.
      The project - '84 Jetta 1.6TD, 186k+, fully rebuilt, Giles IP and injectors, 2.5" custom exhaust, 51mpg
      Hers - '03 BMP 20thAE GTI, 130k, 3" 42DD turbo back, Unitronic Stage 2
      His - '01 Jetta TDI, 135k. Now has 3 pedals, as it should!

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      07-07-2012 12:52 PM #5
      1V is the ECO diesel 1.6 TD engine code.

    6. 07-07-2012 03:18 PM #6
      The 1V pump has an 8mm plunger instead of the 9mm of the other IDI pumps and will result in WORSE fuel economy for a given amount of fuel due to increased pumping losses. Good for emissions, bad for fuel economy.

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      07-09-2012 05:35 PM #7
      The 1V pump has an 8mm plunger instead of the 9mm of the other IDI pumps and will result in WORSE fuel economy for a given amount of fuel due to increased pumping losses. Good for emissions, bad for fuel economy.
      Would anyone care to elaborate on this?

      I thought that camplate lift along with plunger size determined the maximum volume of fuel that can be injected per stroke in the VE pumps?

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      07-10-2012 02:00 PM #8
      Quote Originally Posted by EcoTX View Post
      Would anyone care to elaborate on this?

      I thought that camplate lift along with plunger size determined the maximum volume of fuel that can be injected per stroke in the VE pumps?
      it is, but the eco pumps were the smallest pump VW ever used..

      they had a TINY plunger, and i believe they even had less lift on the cam plate..

      so, with a tiny plunger, and small cam plate, there isnt much fuel to be injected.. not even enough to make for a complete, efficient burn...

      the TD pump gets you the best economy on a boosted engine..

      and TD engines get better economy than n/a engines..

      ECO pumps were ECOlogical, not ECOnomical..

    9. 07-12-2012 01:18 AM #9
      Quote Originally Posted by libbybapa View Post
      The 1V pump has an 8mm plunger instead of the 9mm of the other IDI pumps and will result in WORSE fuel economy for a given amount of fuel due to increased pumping losses. Good for emissions, bad for fuel economy.
      If the car got worse economy, I'd attribute it to the engine overall. I'd estimate increased pumping losses would probably cost you 0.000000042 hp.

      brian

    10. 07-20-2012 10:09 PM #10
      my suggestion:
      if you ablolutely want to use the 1.6 block,

      -1.6 TD block(for oil spray nozzle under pistons)
      never add turbo on n/a engine, pistons and valves can melt.
      -ARP head studs
      -1.9 pulleys and belts(more reliable) with alternator and bracket but not necessary
      -1.9TD camshaft(something around .050" more lift)
      -1.9td injection pump(more lift on camplate) with 10mm or 11mm rotor head(quicker fuel delivery, stock is 9mm) and with 1.6 boost pin or 2.5 tdi ve pump boost pin(more agressive)
      -ip timing 1mm to 1.25mm(mine was 1.25) depending on whether you prefer a city or highway driving.( better economy at 120 km/h than 100 km/h)
      -1.9td turbo with manifold(better response on 1.6 engine) setted at 20-25psi(mine boost 30psi and no problem) but t3 or k24(better) can do the job
      -1.6 and 1.9 turbo oil drain hose (to fit 1.9 turbo on 1.6 oil pan)
      -gtd injector with large nozzles(mine was dno 550) i heard you can use GM6.5 NOZZLE
      -setted at 200bars
      -FMIC
      -windsheald washer fluid injection(water/methanol) automatiquely engaged at 10-15psi with pressure switch, just after ic.
      -1.9td head gasket(not sure if it fit but they are stronger and 1.6 head is bolt on on 1.9 block)
      -i suggest 1.9TD tranny with cable shifter
      -2.25" streight exaust pipe with 1.6TD resonator only
      - if you can find one, a larger down pipe

      all those parts are bolt-on stock parts from 1.6 and 1.9TD and no machining
      and the job can be done in a weekend

      with that, you probably can expect something around 150HP and 1000km/tank or more
      with 1.9tdi block: 200+HP 1200km/tank
      on a diesel engine, when you got power, you got also economy.

      -155 R13 tires for winter, 185 R14 for summer with 2.5" lift and 2" wheel spacers and you got a tank...


      bad economy with good compression(500psi):
      - worn nozzles
      -bad timing
      -bad injectors opening pressure
      -defect turbo(no boost), overboost will give more economy but too high EGT
      1.6TD and 1.9TD are more sensitive to high EGT(crack between valves)
      - seized caliper
      -bad alingment
      -bad tire pressure(see max pressure on tire)
      -ETC. ETC...
      Last edited by djieffgod; 07-20-2012 at 11:47 PM.

    11. 07-21-2012 12:16 AM #11
      Increasing the injector breaking pressure on the IDIs will result in WORSE fuel economy even if the timing change is compensated. My test results have been confirmed by others as well. Better fuel economy results from lowering the breaking pressure to the non-turbo spec of 135 bar and using the non-turbo timing spec even on the TD engines.

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      07-21-2012 02:10 AM #12
      Quote Originally Posted by Glegor View Post
      it is, but the eco pumps were the smallest pump VW ever used..

      they had a TINY plunger, and i believe they even had less lift on the cam plate..

      so, with a tiny plunger, and small cam plate, there isnt much fuel to be injected.. not even enough to make for a complete, efficient burn...

      the TD pump gets you the best economy on a boosted engine..

      and TD engines get better economy than n/a engines..

      ECO pumps were ECOlogical, not ECOnomical..
      I would argue that one An NA 1.6 will get better fuel mileage than a turbo diesel, except at altitudes over 4000 feet.....,.'IF' you can keep your foot out of it! At close to sea level, I can baby a 1.6 NA and easilt get 54mpg, but not in a TD......48 max....

    13. Member Rockerchick's Avatar
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      07-21-2012 10:56 AM #13
      We've gotten 51mpg out of our TD and we weren't even trying (70 or so mph)and fueling is turned up a bit. And it was early after the rebuild so still being broken in so I disagree with that. TDs are certainly capable of the same mpg as an NA, if not better.
      Quote Originally Posted by TM87 View Post
      VW-making mechanics out of owners since 1957.
      The project - '84 Jetta 1.6TD, 186k+, fully rebuilt, Giles IP and injectors, 2.5" custom exhaust, 51mpg
      Hers - '03 BMP 20thAE GTI, 130k, 3" 42DD turbo back, Unitronic Stage 2
      His - '01 Jetta TDI, 135k. Now has 3 pedals, as it should!

    14. Member Rockerchick's Avatar
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      07-21-2012 10:58 AM #14
      Quote Originally Posted by djieffgod View Post
      never add turbo on n/a engine, pistons and valves can melt.
      Plenty of people running an n/a engine with a turbo added and no oil squirters doing just fine. If you are cranking the boost way up, then yeah you *could* have a problem. But most cases there aren't really any issues. You have to keep an eye on your EGT's though, and that goes for any of these cars. You won't melt pistons if your EGTs are in check, which isn't hard to do.
      Quote Originally Posted by TM87 View Post
      VW-making mechanics out of owners since 1957.
      The project - '84 Jetta 1.6TD, 186k+, fully rebuilt, Giles IP and injectors, 2.5" custom exhaust, 51mpg
      Hers - '03 BMP 20thAE GTI, 130k, 3" 42DD turbo back, Unitronic Stage 2
      His - '01 Jetta TDI, 135k. Now has 3 pedals, as it should!

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      07-21-2012 02:01 PM #15
      Quote Originally Posted by Rockerchick View Post
      Plenty of people running an n/a engine with a turbo added and no oil squirters doing just fine. If you are cranking the boost way up, then yeah you *could* have a problem. But most cases there aren't really any issues. You have to keep an eye on your EGT's though, and that goes for any of these cars. You won't melt pistons if your EGTs are in check, which isn't hard to do.
      if you hold your engine @ more than 1600*, for miles at a time, sure, you will melt something..

      but ive had NO ISSUES with a turbo'd n/a engine. ive got a BIG VNT on my n/a right now..

      right now im only seeing about 1200* @ full pedal..

    16. Member Rockerchick's Avatar
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      07-21-2012 02:53 PM #16
      Which is why I said you need to keep EGTs in check 1600*+ even on a TD block I'm sure can do some damage.

      We see 800* most driving. I think we've gotten to 1300* or so before but that was flooring it trying to catch up some with big turbo Mk4's
      Quote Originally Posted by TM87 View Post
      VW-making mechanics out of owners since 1957.
      The project - '84 Jetta 1.6TD, 186k+, fully rebuilt, Giles IP and injectors, 2.5" custom exhaust, 51mpg
      Hers - '03 BMP 20thAE GTI, 130k, 3" 42DD turbo back, Unitronic Stage 2
      His - '01 Jetta TDI, 135k. Now has 3 pedals, as it should!

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      07-22-2012 12:42 AM #17
      Before you spend a bunch of money and time in pursuit of better fuel economy consider driving technique. My car's range is 42 mpg to 62 mpg with 50 mpg easy to do with ordinary use. The 42 was done while driving about 75 - 80 mph on a long freeway trip. The 62 was done with 155R80/13 tires pumped up to 40psi, removed radio antenna, thinner engine oil, gentle acceleration and driving at mostly 45 - 50 mph on roads where reasonable to do so until a tankfull was used up. Refill for the 62 mpg number was done at the same same diesel fuel dispensing pump while keeping the tank vent valve opened.

      These numbers compare well to anything available dedicated to good fuel economy such as a Prius or a TDI VW.

      I feel skeptical that you can increase fuel mileage to a degree where the modifications will make their cost worthwhile.
      Last edited by Tinker Toy; 07-23-2012 at 06:47 PM.

    18. 07-22-2012 08:23 AM #18
      If you make the engine run as good as possible in all rpm conditions and then don't use it *right foot light* then you will achieve the best mileage possbile. I would go with a small turbo like the aaz k14 or even the k03 they used on the AHU, but this depends on driving style. Head porting to get the air in and out easier is a great way to increase efficientcy.

      Other than the right foot mod, the important things for fuel economy are: Brakes in 100% condition, alignment, tires and tire pressure, trans oil replaced with synthetich GL-4 rated 75w-90, wind resistance, and cruising speed.
      I like 1.6l and 1.9l Diesels

    19. 07-22-2012 04:40 PM #19
      Lightweight wheels, lowering, weight reduction, regular maintenance, etc...

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      07-22-2012 07:20 PM #20
      the way to get GOOD mileage is NOT with a WASTEGATED turbo...

      VNT BABY!! no restrictions!

      my 1.6 w/ VNT15 got AMAZING mileage, and i was NEVER nice to it!

      it would get 40+ with the pedal to the floor.

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      07-23-2012 06:38 PM #21
      Feel free to experiment to your heart's content if you believe that you can outdo what might be more than one VW diesel engineer who is paid to think every day about fuel economy. Take a look at what is posted on TDIClub.com in their fuel economy forum. The numbers I posted for my IDI compare very well to what they are seeing with TDIs. Those guys have no reason to post lies as there are enough people there who can call them out when they see BS. An IDI has a feature against it with the precombustion chamber that throttles combustion pressure to the main combustion chamber. TDIs do not have that restriction. In spite of what IDIs have against them in that regard, it is surprising that they do very well with fuel economy. I did no hypermiling.
      Last edited by Tinker Toy; 07-23-2012 at 06:43 PM.

    22. 07-25-2012 10:35 PM #22
      DJ,

      All of these mods seemed geared towards more power. I have no problem with more power, but my thinking is if this kind of power is available with ~60mpg, why can't you tune it down for even more efficiency without all that power. Maybe a de-stroked crank, or a 1.5 block and smaller turbo?

    23. 07-25-2012 10:41 PM #23
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      Tinker Toy
      Before you spend a bunch of money and time in pursuit of better fuel economy consider driving technique. My car's range is 42 mpg to 62 mpg with 50 mpg easy to do with ordinary use. The 42 was done while driving about 75 - 80 mph on a long freeway trip. The 62 was done with 155R80/13 tires pumped up to 40psi, removed radio antenna, thinner engine oil, gentle acceleration and driving at mostly 45 - 50 mph on roads where reasonable to do so until a tankfull was used up. Refill for the 62 mpg number was done at the same same diesel fuel dispensing pump while keeping the tank vent valve opened.
      
      These numbers compare well to anything available dedicated to good fuel economy such as a Prius or a TDI VW.
      
      I feel skeptical that you can increase fuel mileage to a degree where the modifications will make their cost worthwhile.
      I drive 100 miles/day on the interstate and there's no way I'm going to make my commute even longer by slowing down. My stock 84 JH was doing 44-48mpg with no gentle acceleration and doing~75mph average plus some city driving. I had just picked up 155 tires when the block cracked (damn PO didn't torque the head bolts correctly) and lowered it, so it might pick up some efficiency from that.

    24. 07-25-2012 10:47 PM #24
      Glegor
      the way to get GOOD mileage is NOT with a WASTEGATED turbo...

      VNT BABY!! no restrictions!

      my 1.6 w/ VNT15 got AMAZING mileage, and i was NEVER nice to it!

      it would get 40+ with the pedal to the floor.
      What's been your top mpg so far?

      I like the idea of running a smaller block with a VNT so that you can take advantage of the turbo efficiency more of the time.

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      08-04-2012 11:43 AM #25
      I think overall, the difference between an NA and TD is negligible....except for the smile factor when you need it. Aerodynamics and other friction issues can make a larger difference in economy. A 1.6 TD in a 1978 Scirroco with the pump turned up and drven slightly aggressive....will get better mpg than an NA in a Mk2 Golf babied. Every application has pros and cons.....

      Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk 2

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      08-04-2012 02:31 PM #26
      Quote Originally Posted by rabidroco View Post
      What's been your top mpg so far?

      I like the idea of running a smaller block with a VNT so that you can take advantage of the turbo efficiency more of the time.
      i honestly dont know what my best overall mileage has been. i know i get 45 or better tho. and thats with an AUG close ratio trans (stock trans to my 92 Jetta)

      once i install a passat/G60 trans, i expect my numbers to go up a bit more..

      45 mpg with constant boost while cruising..

      and im not running a smaller block.. im running a 100% stock Vanagon engine.

      the 1.6 is where its at.. dont even mess with trying to use a 1.5, you cant hardly get parts for them anymore.. you DONT get a huge gain from using the 1.5 anyways..

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      08-06-2012 12:02 AM #27
      Ultimate economy?

      Direct Injection, 15% more efficient than any Indirect Injeccted hopes to be right out of the box.

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      08-06-2012 03:49 PM #28
      Quote Originally Posted by 8v-of-fury View Post
      Ultimate economy?

      Direct Injection, 15% more efficient than any Indirect Injeccted hopes to be right out of the box.
      you can buy ALOT of diesel for the cost of that TDI tho...

      here in america, a TDI is ~$1500

      IDIs on the other hand, are almost FREE..

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      08-06-2012 05:06 PM #29
      Well he asked for ultimate economy. Its like 15 minutes to pull one of these engines. Steal One

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      08-06-2012 06:01 PM #30
      Quote Originally Posted by 8v-of-fury View Post
      Ultimate economy?

      Direct Injection, 15% more efficient than any Indirect Injeccted hopes to be right out of the box.
      Ultimate, maybe. What use is that good for other than a talking point? Ultimate is not what happens when you drive the car in a normal manner but I didn't need to say that, did I?
      Last edited by Tinker Toy; 08-06-2012 at 06:11 PM.

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      08-06-2012 08:57 PM #31
      Quote Originally Posted by Tinker Toy View Post
      Ultimate, maybe. What use is that good for other than a talking point? Ultimate is not what happens when you drive the car in a normal manner but I didn't need to say that, did I?
      Well yes you did need to say it, so that I could respond .

      What good is it? Oh I don't know, about 15% better economy, good. ALL THE TIME. Normal manner, flooring it, babying it.. whichever, it does not change the DI's ability to make the combustion of fuel 15% more efficient.

      Oh its also ultimately better in every way, shape and form. There is a reason Volkswagen at the time dropped the IDI and went purely to DI.

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      08-06-2012 10:10 PM #32
      Quote Originally Posted by 8v-of-fury View Post
      What good is it? Oh I don't know, about 15% better economy, good. ALL THE TIME. Normal manner, flooring it, babying it.. whichever, it does not change the DI's ability to make the combustion of fuel 15% more efficient.
      My IDI typically is good for 50 mpg. Are you saying that a TDI will typically do 50 x 1.15 = 57.5 mpg with US size gallons? That is not a number that I see on TDIClub.com. Around 45 mpg for a TDI seems typical.

    33. Member Rockerchick's Avatar
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      08-06-2012 10:42 PM #33
      Our TDI has been doing consistently better than our TD. We got 51 with the TD on the highway, 52, almost 53 with the TDI. Getting 46 around town with AC on in the TDI. TD is more like 44.
      Quote Originally Posted by TM87 View Post
      VW-making mechanics out of owners since 1957.
      The project - '84 Jetta 1.6TD, 186k+, fully rebuilt, Giles IP and injectors, 2.5" custom exhaust, 51mpg
      Hers - '03 BMP 20thAE GTI, 130k, 3" 42DD turbo back, Unitronic Stage 2
      His - '01 Jetta TDI, 135k. Now has 3 pedals, as it should!

    34. 08-06-2012 11:21 PM #34
      best I ever did with my 1.6 IDI TD was 48.53mpg. I get that with my TDI non highway driving running a/c in the summer. The TDI is .3L bigger engine too, and the older IDI has a bit lighter car.
      I like 1.6l and 1.9l Diesels

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      08-06-2012 11:22 PM #35
      Quote Originally Posted by Tinker Toy View Post
      My IDI typically is good for 50 mpg. Are you saying that a TDI will typically do 50 x 1.15 = 57.5 mpg with US size gallons? That is not a number that I see on TDIClub.com. Around 45 mpg for a TDI seems typical.
      Hauling around what 1500-1800lbs more than your rabbit or golf? Those Mk4's are a heavy beast.

      Listen bud, its a known fact that the direct injection engines are 15% more efficient. That 15% comes from the injection itself.. no wasted heat in the pre-chamber, less fuel in same power out.

      More Efficient.

      Rad'nBadRockerchick is a prime example, her TD is a mk1 and her TDI is an mk4.

      Quote Originally Posted by theman53 View Post
      best I ever did with my 1.6 IDI TD was 48.53mpg. I get that with my TDI non highway driving running a/c in the summer. The TDI is .3L bigger engine too, and the older IDI has a bit lighter car.
      .3L more displacement, and still more efficient. PeanutButterandJammmmm

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