MT Head-2-Head Video - E30 M3 vs. 190E 2.3-16

[DrewSXR]

MT Head-to-Head - E30 M3 vs. 190E 2.3-16

http://wot.motortrend.com/bmw-e30-m3...ad-230807.html

[Eightysixturbo]

These cars are both on my to-own list

and I never knew that about senna

[Horror Business]

It's things like this that continually refuel my dreams. Some day...

[cockerpunk]

i can't help but wonder why the porsche 944, turbo and 944S are never in these comparisons. it has nearly the same racing pedigree, and is comparable or better in nearly every respect. is it because there was no "soft" and cheaper version? or because its a bit more then a sports coupe, more like a sports car? or because its not a homologation special?

that being said, DAMN that M3 is sick!

[a2a4raddo]

i can't help but wonder why the porsche 944, turbo and 944S are never in these comparisons. it has nearly the same racing pedigree, and is comparable or better in nearly every respect. is it because there was no "soft" and cheaper version? or because its a bit more then a sports coupe, more like a sports car? or because its not a homologation special?

that being said, DAMN that M3 is sick!

the 944 is a sports coupe. These cars are sedans. They are based on entry level lux sedans. The 944 was built from ground up as a sports car. You wont see many comparo's. They werent really raced against M3's and 190's when these cars were at their prime.

Back on topic, when comparing the u.s. spec cars...its really no comparo(performance wise). The 190 made nearly 30HP less and weighed 400LBs more then an M3. On top of that, it cost 8K more new. the 190E 2.3-16 was slower then a 325is(which madethe same power and was significantly lighter), let alone and M3. Now, build quality, fit and finish,quality of materials, etc is a different story. E30's arnt on the same leve; as the MB's were. Not even close.

[malv1]

That was an awesome video. I had heard about Senna running the 190E 2.3 but didn't know it was really his starting point...

[91gti20v]

That was an awesome video. I had heard about Senna running the 190E 2.3 but didn't know it was really his starting point...

It wasn't his starting point. He won the British Formula 3 championship in 1983. He was racing for Toleman in F1 in 1984.

[saron81]

Missing the Sierra Cosworth to smash them both.
(That was these cars true competition)

[zhenya00]

Nice video, and especially nice to see someone who can appreciate the 2.3-16 without being completely blinded by the presence of a Sport Evo.

I totally agree about most of what he has to say about the Benz. The ride quality is insane. I can drive at speeds over the rough often dirt back roads we have around here at speeds that are intolerable in most modern cars. Sure does roll though. The build quality is also insane. 25 years old and mine is tighter than most new cars.

Worth noting on the 2.3-16 is that most of the 20hp it lost in NA trim can be re-aquired with high-flow downpipes that lose the pre-cats, a hi-flow cat and exhaust. It truly wakes up the car. Mine is also lighter than expected at about 2900lbs on my local scales.

Allow me to whore a bit:

[Volvo_D]

Old German cars = much much much cooler than new German cars.

[GahannaKid]

Allow me to whore a bit:

Or, you know, you could whore a lot

I would be perfectly content with either of these cars but I feel like (perhaps mistakenly so?) the lower end BMWs of that era are much more accessible and easier to get that M3 feel, power, etc without the M3 price. I also haven't looked into it much, but as I understand it the BMWs are still heavily supported at dealerships.

[chuckster1]

I want a 190e Cosworth so bad. I found one locally last week. Everything worked electrically. Interior was awesome. Only 93K miles. Rear suspension was shot though, but the dealer wanted to send it to auction instead of letting me try to figure out how to get it fixed. Great "customer service." You know, that's how you treat customers in order to sell a new car down the road. That sort of thing. Oh well, soon I will have one. Just gotta be patient.

[chuckster1]

Old German cars = much much much cooler than new German cars.

Money quote.

[zhenya00]

I want a 190e Cosworth so bad. I found one locally last week. Everything worked electrically. Interior was awesome. Only 93K miles. Rear suspension was shot though, but the dealer wanted to send it to auction instead of letting me try to figure out how to get it fixed. Great "customer service." You know, that's how you treat customers in order to sell a new car down the road. That sort of thing. Oh well, soon I will have one. Just gotta be patient.

Bummer. It's worth finding a good one of these though if you are going to do it. Parts are insanely expensive and many difficult to find, so try to find one that has been taken care of. One of the big obstacles to owning a 2.3-16 is that there is just not that much information out there about them, nor many aftermarket parts available. Many things are one-offs produced for a short period by an enthusiast then NLA once they get rid of their car. The e30 is a lot easier to own in this regard.

[choochoo]

Missing the Sierra Cosworth to smash them both.
(That was these cars true competition)

fifth gear did a review of the 190e 2.3-16v versus the Sierra Cosworth coupe. I would have like to see the sedan vs. sedan shootout

[chuckster1]

Bummer. It's worth finding a good one of these though if you are going to do it. Parts are insanely expensive and many difficult to find, so try to find one that has been taken care of. One of the big obstacles to owning a 2.3-16 is that there is just not that much information out there about them, nor many aftermarket parts available. Many things are one-offs produced for a short period by an enthusiast then NLA once they get rid of their car. The e30 is a lot easier to own in this regard.

I'm with you on this. The 190e in question was pretty solid. A couple bubbles in the paint on the right side. Other than that the paint was great. I even drove it for a good solid 20 minutes flogging it pretty hard. 1st gear was a little tight, but the other gears were smooth. The dealership was only asking $3900. I guess they didn't realize what they had. I even saw these as replacements for the SLS:

http://www.ground-control-store.com/...ory.php/CA=289

Original wheels, so those would have to go for 17"s of some sort. EVO II wheels seem pricey but not hard to find:

http://www.alloywheelsdirect.net/mer...o_ii_wheel_873

So for about $6000 I could have had a great car with awesome suspension and period-correct wheels. A nice weekend car to play around with.

[choochoo]

Original wheels, so those would have to go for 17"s of some sort. EVO II wheels seem pricey but not hard to find:

http://www.alloywheelsdirect.net/mer...o_ii_wheel_873

or if you're on a tight budget, find some borbet type C, which look similar.


Wow, you didnt' pick it up for $3900????? The clean ones on craigslist usually ask for around $6~8K.

[zhenya00]

Keep in mind that these motors are extremely sensitive to valve adjustments and clearance should be checked every 15k and adjusted as necessary. Since this largely goes ignored, MANY cossie's have valve issues, and many owners spend a huge amount of time effort and money chasing down other issues like poor hot start, stalling, bouncing idle, etc. that they are quick to blame on CIS but are actually signs of needing a head job.

The Ground Control stuff is awesome, and one of the few newly available items for this car. You will, however, lose every bit of that wonderful ride quality. Some owners are reporting this setup as 'track only'. Jury is still out as there aren't that many people on them yet.

[MAG58]

The Ground Control stuff is awesome, and one of the few newly available items for this car. You will, however, lose every bit of that wonderful ride quality. Some owners are reporting this setup as 'track only'. Jury is still out as there aren't that many people on them yet.

I'm ordering a set for my M104 car. I wont say the ride is compliant as the factory sportline/16V ride quality. It is, however, loads better than those of us who were using 500E or R129 springs to get the spring rate up. Now that a larger rear swaybar is available via matsellah on the rev, I think I can have GC provide me with softer springs which can still give me a stiff, yet compliant ride.

[IsraelGT]

The 190E 2.5 Evo is the 190 that I have in my mind when talking about that era of M3, Sierra etc.

[chuckster1]

or if you're on a tight budget, find some borbet type C, which look similar.


Wow, you didnt' pick it up for $3900????? The clean ones on craigslist usually ask for around $6~8K.

Good info on the Borbets! Yeah, I tried to convince the wife that this would be a great example of a "Wheeler Dealer" car that we could at least turn an easy profit on if we decided not to keep it, once the SLS was sorted. My son-in-law was even excited to help me out. But in the end we decided it wasn't a good financial move for us right now. It was beyond tempting though. I think I could have walked away with it for $3K. Still upset I couldn't swing it.