E38 sport vs. w210 E55-Talk to me about the pro's and con's of each

[tyfoon129]

Looking to buy myself another toy when I get back from Afghanistan. Always loved the E38 and the W210. Both seem about the same in terms of price for a decent example. Maintenance seems reasonable on both. I already own a mk3, B5 and a BMW 2002 so I understand German auto maintenance. Both have classic german lines. E38 is the last good looking BMW amd the W210 was the first benz I fell in love with.

When I searched I found ample info on the E38. I did not find to much on the W210 E55. Few people said they were good. Oil changes are expensive?? Brakes are expensive blah blah blah

What do people think about these cars?

[markus037]

E38 pros : not susceptible to rust like the W210 is. cheaper parts. more DIYs available than the benz. better looking IMO.

E38 cons: beware of the transmission. the ZF 5-speed autos are iffy and its lifespan is limited to 80-100k if the fluid has never been changed, some have had theirs go for 200k so its possible to get long miles if you change the fluid every 50k or so. E38s also suffer from the crappy cooling systems so figure that in as well. front thrust arm bushings are common wear item. plan on replacing those every 50k if you plan on keeping it for a while. valley pan gaskets and valve cover gaskets leak too but its DIY. parts arent horrible either. the M60/62 is a good, solid engine if properly maintained and can go over 200k easily.

W210 E55 pros: rare, not many E55 AMGs were imported to the states, super reliable engine and its DIY friendly. No supercharger and heat sink issues to worry about. looks good as well and you are more likely to get most of your money back on this than a run of the mil E38.

W210 E55 cons: rust! when you go to look at one make sure the inside bottoms of all doors arent rusting through and look at the front fenders as well as rear wheel arches. the electrics can be shoddy too. the transmission seems to be a common failure item on these cars around higher mileage and it isnt cheap. i remember reading around $5k for a new one. the brake parts are expensive for these as well.

[Rennwagen]

I asked about the W210 a while back. Here's that thread: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...rcedes-E55-AMG

[admiralbabar]

The e38 you posted looks like an IL. This is a sport...



Either way....e38

[markus037]

oh and if you decide to get a 740i sport make sure its not some tarted up E38 with some M pars on it. The real sports were all short wheelbase cars and have the 3-spoke steering wheel in them as well as the E39 sport seats.

[mikes96GTI]

E38 is a great car. I would look into a 2000-2001 Sport. Stay away from earlier cars with the M60 and M62 engines without VANOS. They are slugs. Stay AWAY from the 750. IDGAF how cheap, or nice it runs, unless you are a masochist, stay away. To reinforce prior mentions

Trans death knell. hits some cars, from anywhere north of 80k or so, but I have done them earlier when these were still under warranty.

Timing chain guides. Hit some cars, from 90-200K miles.... crap shoot look for service records.

Catalytic converters go bad. Most got replaced under warranty with updated ones, that will also go bad.

Cooling system issues effect EVERY car. Best bet with these things by now, if you drive around town local and have AAA, great. Wait till something goes, DO NOT overheat it, then just do everything. Expansion tank, rehose, water pump/t-stat (especially the t-stat its electric and when it shorts it can set the engine harness on fire) radiator. If your ambitious, do the intake reseal and valley pan at the same time. Its not IF its WHEN these will fail. If you plan to long haul it, I would do these as insurance. They always pick the next weakest link to let go.

Oil leaks, oil leaks, oil leaks. Upper timing and valve covers are common. Pan gaskets and lower timing covers, not so much. ALL power steering hoses will go. Worst one is the pressure hose from the box to the pump. Expensive hose, bitch to change.

Bushings. Anytime you get a two ton car to handle well, its going to wear stuff out. In the rear its lower ball joints and links, in the front its thrust rod bushings. The steering center link causes popping noises when going in and out of driveways, etc. But its just an annoyance.

All the Maintenance is easy. If you can DIY even better for the whole car. The only thing that will break you is body and interior parts. Buy the nicest one you can afford. Mechanicals can be fixed cheaper then cars with cosmetic issues.

[eurotekms]

In for more info on the M-B.

As far as Con's on the e38... I've been looking for months, and haven't found one nice enough. I wouldn't say they've all been trashed (some, definitely) but most haven't had proper service for the miles.

[mikes96GTI]

I would say best bet for buying one, is either the BMW boards, or look in areas where people have money. My customers spend more on their cars in service then they are worth, but won't have it any other way. DO get it looked at before you buy, it could save you thousands.

[MB_Fahrer]

The W210's are great cars. Some can have horrendous issues, some can be completely bulletproof. The 210s are very much "luck of the draw" cars. Watch out for rust--MB was particularly poor with rust prevention in the 210, 220(early), and 215(early) models.

My experience with the E38s is limited to an hour long test drive in a 2001 750il. Decent car, but not for me. The E38 had more "feedback" than my E55. That being said, the E55 is by no means devoid of feeling. The steering is connected to the front wheels, the throttle feels connected to the motor; however I am currently battling the brakes in mine. I replaced the master cylinder, booster, pads, rotors, rubber lines, and I've still got a soft pedal. I have a few more bits coming tomorrow that should fix that.

The 210 E55's are fairly mod-friendly, but from what I remember the E38s are not so much. Mod meaning power enhancement. Both platforms can have coilovers, exhausts, and bodykits until you're blue in the face.

Be happy to answer any more directly focused questions you have about the two

Edit: just food for thought if you didn't know this already: the E38 is more often compared to the W140 S-Class and the E39 5-series the competitor to the W210 E-Class.

[MB_Fahrer]

The e38 you posted looks like an IL. This is a sport...



Either way....e38

That's just modified. This is a true Sport :

[admiralbabar]

That's just modified. This is a true Sport :

no...thats an IL and yes, the one I posted was a modified sport.

this is a bone stock e38 740i Sport...check out the rear doors.

[MB_Fahrer]

no...thats an IL and yes, the one I posted was a modified sport.

this is a bone stock e38 740i Sport...check out the rear doors.

You would post the shorter one Kidding, kidding. The SWB are much more fun if you are a "driver." The LWB are nice to haul people around in the back seat. It's a shame that the W140 V12's here in the USA are all LWB--I'd still have mine if they sold the SWB 600's here. Now I'm just killing time. I've got a mess of wiring to do.

Cheers,
Ricky

[mikes96GTI]

You could get sport in SWB and LWB. like someone said earlier, the iL is just shadow trim and M-Parallel wheels. The i had some unique parts like the seat, steering wheel, springs and gears. Plus I think all iL's had EDC. I may be wrong though. Either one, they are really great cars.

[admiralbabar]

My bad, i was under the impression all Sport models were SWB, and they were up until 2001.
I was going by what OP posted, and that appears to be a pre-facelift model, in which case there were no IL's with sport packages.

[DIAF]

E38 is a great car. I would look into a 2000-2001 Sport. Stay away from earlier cars with the M60 and M62 engines without VANOS. They are slugs. Stay AWAY from the 750. IDGAF how cheap, or nice it runs, unless you are a masochist, stay away. To reinforce prior mentions

Trans death knell. hits some cars, from anywhere north of 80k or so, but I have done them earlier when these were still under warranty.

Timing chain guides. Hit some cars, from 90-200K miles.... crap shoot look for service records.

Catalytic converters go bad. Most got replaced under warranty with updated ones, that will also go bad.

Cooling system issues effect EVERY car. Best bet with these things by now, if you drive around town local and have AAA, great. Wait till something goes, DO NOT overheat it, then just do everything. Expansion tank, rehose, water pump/t-stat (especially the t-stat its electric and when it shorts it can set the engine harness on fire) radiator. If your ambitious, do the intake reseal and valley pan at the same time. Its not IF its WHEN these will fail. If you plan to long haul it, I would do these as insurance. They always pick the next weakest link to let go.

Oil leaks, oil leaks, oil leaks. Upper timing and valve covers are common. Pan gaskets and lower timing covers, not so much. ALL power steering hoses will go. Worst one is the pressure hose from the box to the pump. Expensive hose, bitch to change.

Bushings. Anytime you get a two ton car to handle well, its going to wear stuff out. In the rear its lower ball joints and links, in the front its thrust rod bushings. The steering center link causes popping noises when going in and out of driveways, etc. But its just an annoyance.

All the Maintenance is easy. If you can DIY even better for the whole car. The only thing that will break you is body and interior parts. Buy the nicest one you can afford. Mechanicals can be fixed cheaper then cars with cosmetic issues.

Good post, except for the 750 comments.

The V12 is more reliable than the V8's, and doesn't suffer the same cooling issues.

It's not a sport package car though.

/2 years and 40k miles in a 750il (80-120k)

[mikes96GTI]

Good post, except for the 750 comments.

The V12 is more reliable than the V8's, and doesn't suffer the same cooling issues.

It's not a sport package car though.

/2 years and 40k miles in a 750il (80-120k)

Say what you want. After dealing with them for 15 years, the mutual consensus between myself and colleges is that any V12 powered BMW is garbage. Everything gets brittle and breaks, everything is twice as much money, and has two DME's, and two of every sensor, even two batteries, one for the E-Cats. Water pumps, expansion tanks, radiators, hoses, fuel lines, power steering, valve covers all leak just the same, just much more work and expensive to change. Bad car. Don't give people bad advice. Don't lead someone off a cliff because you supposedly had a lucky car and have no clue what you are talking about.

[71DubBugBug]

I would say best bet for buying one, is either the BMW boards, or look in areas where people have money. My customers spend more on their cars in service then they are worth, but won't have it any other way. DO get it looked at before you buy, it could save you thousands.

very sound advice!

the repair bills ive seen for some of these, as in full engine rebuilds that costed more than the car was worth @137 an hour

[MB_Fahrer]

Say what you want. After dealing with them for 15 years, the mutual consensus between myself and colleges is that any V12 powered BMW is garbage. Everything gets brittle and breaks, everything is twice as much money, and has two DME's, and two of every sensor, even two batteries, one for the E-Cats. Water pumps, expansion tanks, radiators, hoses, fuel lines, power steering, valve covers all leak just the same, just much more work and expensive to change. Bad car. Don't give people bad advice. Don't lead someone off a cliff because you supposedly had a lucky car and have no clue what you are talking about.

In his defense, some of the V12s can be more reliable. He may have gotten one of the good ones. MB's V12s are the same. A great V12 won't cost more than a couple hundred dollars to run per year whereas a bad V8 can run thousands. The opposite is also true. Some cars just have a bad bug to them. I cannot explain it any better than that--I don't understand myself.

One of my MB V12s cost nothing to run, another is costing me about $15k to get operating again.

The M120 and the 5.4 BMW V12 are fairly similar. Both are straight sixes joined at the crank. That being said, the MB is infinitely better than the BMW motor; however the MB is still very finicky and if not cared for properly can run a person bankrupt.

Back on topic.....

[mikes96GTI]

In his defense, some of the V12s can be more reliable. He may have gotten one of the good ones. MB's V12s are the same. A great V12 won't cost more than a couple hundred dollars to run per year whereas a bad V8 can run thousands. The opposite is also true. Some cars just have a bad bug to them. I cannot explain it any better than that--I don't understand myself.

One of my MB V12s cost nothing to run, another is costing me about $15k to get operating again.

The M120 and the 5.4 BMW V12 are fairly similar. Both are straight sixes joined at the crank. That being said, the MB is infinitely better than the BMW motor; however the MB is still very finicky and if not cared for properly can run a person bankrupt.

Back on topic.....

Best not to compare MB V12's to BMW V12's. Its like comparing Kate Upton to Lindsay Lohan. While both will get the job done, one does it better, and with much less baggage. MB V12's seem to be far better in terms of reliability. BMW's V12 was able to run up to 100MPH while running on HALF the engine.... which it did, frequently lol. I mean, the intake gasket blocks are $700! The independents RTV them and they leak like crazy. but yes, when they run correctly, you can balance a nickle on its edge on the engine cover, with it running. You think our old V12's were bad, you should see the E65 era ones with direct injection! Both high pressure fuel pumps are $5K.... just for the parts. I have two of them in my garage in the hopes someone can rebuild them at somepoint.

The new one has twin turbos. Its a constant game of catch up to MB. The only reason we make one, is because MB makes one. Its like a Nuclear arms race to capture the Arab oil money market share.

[71DubBugBug]

Its a constant game of catch up to MB. The only reason we make one, is because MB makes one.

the w140 and e38 was when mercedes and bmw really went head to head, and mercedes came out on top, no?


regarding the op question, can these two cars really be compared? other than in price? yes they both have v8 engines, and are german sedans, but built for completely different reasons

[MB_Fahrer]

Best not to compare MB V12's to BMW V12's. Its like comparing Kate Upton to Lindsay Lohan. While both will get the job done, one does it better, and with much less baggage. MB V12's seem to be far better in terms of reliability. BMW's V12 was able to run up to 100MPH while running on HALF the engine.... which it did, frequently lol. I mean, the intake gasket blocks are $700! The independents RTV them and they leak like crazy. but yes, when they run correctly, you can balance a nickle on its edge on the engine cover, with it running. You think our old V12's were bad, you should see the E65 era ones with direct injection! Both high pressure fuel pumps are $5K.... just for the parts. I have two of them in my garage in the hopes someone can rebuild them at somepoint.

The new one has twin turbos. Its a constant game of catch up to MB. The only reason we make one, is because MB makes one. Its like a Nuclear arms race to capture the Arab oil money market share.

Well said.

[MB_Fahrer]

regarding the op question, can these two cars really be compared? other than in price? yes they both have v8 engines, and are german sedans, but built for completely different reasons

They really can't. The E38 is a large sedan built more to be of a limousine, and the W210 E55 was meant to be a sports sedan. There really is no comparison other than price.

Is it bad I can hear the flamewar coming?

[Harv]

Is it bad I can hear the flamewar coming?

Nah. They are both high profile German sedans. Everyone loves them equally here.

[Wanganrunner]

Why can't Germans build a reliable automatic transmission?

It seems to be the failure point on a lot of these cars. A8's, E46's, E38's, multiple Mercedes, etc.

Why not use GM units or something if they really can't get it right? No amount of sophistication is worth the trade-off in long run durability.

[MB_Fahrer]

Why can't Germans build a reliable automatic transmission?

It seems to be the failure point on a lot of these cars. A8's, E46's, E38's, multiple Mercedes, etc.

Why not use GM units or something if they really can't get it right? No amount of sophistication is worth the trade-off in long run durability.

That's your opinion. I would rather have sophistication and performance over durability. That's my opinion.

[Chris_V]

Say what you want. After dealing with them for 15 years, the mutual consensus between myself and colleges is that any V12 powered BMW is garbage. Don't lead someone off a cliff because you supposedly had a lucky car and have no clue what you are talking about.

According to the E38 boards, and E38.org you're wrong.

I've been dealing with these cars directly for the last 5 years, and the 750s are the more reliable ones, and the pre-VANOS V8s are every bit as good as the VANOS cars (and you don't get the annoying VANOS rattle, either). The M62 cars are QUITE reliable for the engines and trans, but they suffer from the same cooling system issues as any other E38/E39. Also, the pre-facelift cars with the M62 don't have water cooled alternators, so they tend to be 1) more reliable and 2) cheaper to fix if they do break.

For REAL info on the E38s go to E38.org and the E38 forums at bimmerboards.com. Serious as a heart attack on this one.

But yes, the ultimate in E38s is the 740i Sport and the 750L Sport. The 740iL Sports are just the appearance package and don't get the good gears or Steptronic trans (though the steptronic trans is just programming of the standard trans, and the gears are easily swapped these days.)

[Chris_V]

Why can't Germans build a reliable automatic transmission?

It seems to be the failure point on a lot of these cars. A8's, E46's, E38's, multiple Mercedes, etc.

Why not use GM units or something if they really can't get it right? No amount of sophistication is worth the trade-off in long run durability.

Most of them are still fine after 200k miles. Mine was still fine with it's original fluid at 185k miles.

[MB_Fahrer]

This is about as relevant as discussing GM transmissions on a completely OT (at this point) post, so take a look-see at this. Not bad price wise. I'd love to have something like this. An armored car has been on my bucket list for quite some time. I almost armored my W140, but sold it before I got around to it. Nothing too crazy armor wise. I'm not going to drive over an IED, but to have the security knowing I could drive through the bad parts of town without worry would be nice.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-7...ht_1397wt_1175

[Chris_V]

This is about as relevant as discussing GM transmissions on a completely OT (at this point) post, so take a look-see at this. Not bad price wise. If it was importable I'd love to have something like this. An armored car has been on my bucket list for quite some time. I almost armored my W140, but sold it before I got around to it. Nothing too crazy armor wise. I'm not going to drive over an IED, but to have the security knowing I could drive through the bad parts of town without worry would be nice.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-7...ht_1397wt_1175

I've seen the protection edition 750s for sale up here, too. But a lot of them for sale are simply the double pane glass and not real protection cars. The real deals are around if you know what to look for, though.

[DIAF]

Say what you want. After dealing with them for 15 years, the mutual consensus between myself and colleges is that any V12 powered BMW is garbage. Everything gets brittle and breaks, everything is twice as much money, and has two DME's, and two of every sensor, even two batteries, one for the E-Cats. Water pumps, expansion tanks, radiators, hoses, fuel lines, power steering, valve covers all leak just the same, just much more work and expensive to change. Bad car. Don't give people bad advice. Don't lead someone off a cliff because you supposedly had a lucky car and have no clue what you are talking about.

You're being hyperbolic. For example, no 750 with e-cats has two DME's. The M73 in the E38 is a good motor. It's a PITA to do plugs and wires on, but it's a much more simple, and thus reliable motor than the M62.

And try to refrain from telling me what I do an do not know. The only cars mechanics see are cars with problems. You have a sample bias to contend.

[mikes96GTI]

You're being hyperbolic. For example, no 750 with e-cats has two DME's. The M73 in the E38 is a good motor. It's a PITA to do plugs and wires on, but it's a much more simple, and thus reliable motor than the M62.

And try to refrain from telling me what I do an do not know. The only cars mechanics see are cars with problems. You have a sample bias to contend.

You obviously DON'T KNOW. The motors themselves are all perfectly reliable, V8 or V12 with the exception of the odd timing chain guide, but that hits both motors. The MOTOR isn't the problem, its everything mounted too it. Much like an old diesel will go half million miles, but everything bolted to it has been replaced six times. And I didn't say the cars with E-Cats had two DME's, I said it had two batteries. All the ones prior to 99 had two.

What is it you do again for a living that makes YOU an expert on these cars? How many have YOU worked on in the last 15 years in E32/E31/E38 guise? You are somewhat correct, I do see all the problem cars, I also see all the other ones that come in and need nothing but services and easy/cheap repairs. I'm done getting into an internet pissing match with a know-it all armchair "BMW expert"

[DIAF]

You obviously DON'T KNOW. The motors themselves are all perfectly reliable, V8 or V12 with the exception of the odd timing chain guide, but that hits both motors. The MOTOR isn't the problem, its everything mounted too it. Much like an old diesel will go half million miles, but everything bolted to it has been replaced six times. And I didn't say the cars with E-Cats had two DME's, I said it had two batteries. All the ones prior to 99 had two.

My 98 had a single DME.

What is it you do again for a living that makes YOU an expert on these cars? How many have YOU worked on in the last 15 years in E32/E31/E38 guise? You are somewhat correct, I do see all the problem cars, I also see all the other ones that come in and need nothing but services and easy/cheap repairs. I'm done getting into an internet pissing match with a know-it all armchair "BMW expert"

I don't know it all, but I apparently know more than you.

And that's the difference between me and you - I could do your job if I wanted to, but I'd rather make more money not getting dirty, and work on cars as a hobby.

[mikes96GTI]

My 98 had a single DME.




I don't know it all, but I apparently know more than you.

And that's the difference between me and you - I could do your job if I wanted to, but I'd rather make more money not getting dirty, and work on cars as a hobby.

Your splitting hairs ******* expecting me to remember phase in dates for running model changes for all the cars made. Make more than me? How do you know how much I make? You assume I'm some Pepboys $10 an hour grease monkey huh? What do you think paid for everything I drive? I make plenty of money working on cars, enough to pay for putting my wife through med school sans student loans, enough to support her until she finds a job, and enough to pay for everything I have and own and still shelve money. I make more then you think, and a lot more then most people with college degrees. Go ahead and think I don't make much. Its better that way. If you knew what good techs made it would shock you. Again, what you haven't answered, is what do YOU do for a living that lets you know everything about BMW's, keeps you so clean and lavished in the luxuries of a 5 year old Lexus coming from the further luxuries of an old 750? There is no way you could do my job and make what I make. You are on the ignore list now.

[MB_Fahrer]

[mikes96GTI]

Yes. Yes it has an I'm sorry. Some people......

To the OP, although I can be of no help with the benz, and won't pretend I can, PM me if you have any specific questions on the E38, I can run BMW's history that will included options it has if you send me the last 7 of the VIN. Thanks for serving so I can sit here and have internet squabbles. Seriously though, thanks for serving.