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    Thread: Official FORMULA 1 GROSSER PREIS SANTANDER VON DEUTSCHLAND 2012

    1. Member Mk1Racer's Avatar
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      07-23-2012 10:31 AM #71
      Quote Originally Posted by dubsix View Post
      This is a nicely explained write up on when Vettel did get a penalty.. (on a great blog written btw by people who actually race)

      http://blog.axisofoversteer.com/2012...-penalize.html
      Link doesn't work.

    2. Member nickthaskater's Avatar
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      07-23-2012 10:33 AM #72
      Quote Originally Posted by dubsix View Post
      "he didn't say anything, he didn't complain to me" is not keeping your mouth shut, he could of done what Button did and be "classy".
      lol, sure. Good lord, you're petty.

    3. 07-23-2012 10:33 AM #73
      hmmm..works for me... just got to www.axisofoversteer.com you will find the write up there.

    4. 07-23-2012 10:35 AM #74
      Quote Originally Posted by nickthaskater View Post
      lol, sure. Good lord, you're petty.

      sure... but at least I don't reek of Vettel ball sweat all over.

    5. Senior Member Binary Star's Avatar
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      07-23-2012 10:37 AM #75
      Quote Originally Posted by dubsix View Post
      This is a nicely explained write up on when Vettel did get a penalty.. (on a great blog written btw by people who actually race)

      http://blog.axisofoversteer.com/2012...-penalize.html
      With pictures and everything... aaahhh gotta love it.


      Quote Originally Posted by Oliver@triplezoom View Post
      Did you stream or download Sky's coverage?
      Download. I was having a hard time finding a stream so decided to download the race after.

    6. Member Hajduk's Avatar
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      07-23-2012 10:39 AM #76
      Quote Originally Posted by nickthaskater View Post

      Sucks for Vettel as it could be argued either way with how Jenson went right to the edge in corner exit and even lost the back end a bit as Vettel said he was concerned about, but those are the breaks.
      Vettel said the reason he went off the track was that he didn't know how close Button was to him and wanted to avoid a collision. That seems far fetched to me since Button was ahead of him at that stage. How could Vettel not know where he was?

    7. Member Mk1Racer's Avatar
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      07-23-2012 10:53 AM #77
      Quote Originally Posted by Hajduk View Post
      Vettel said the reason he went off the track was that he didn't know how close Button was to him and wanted to avoid a collision. That seems far fetched to me since Button was ahead of him at that stage. How could Vettel not know where he was?
      Actually, Vettel still had 2 wheels on the curb, and was a nose ahead of Button. That was at the time that Button's car was sideways, and he was roasting the rear tires.

      @dubsix, Firefox says it can't find the server www.axisofoversteer.com. I'll try it from my phone.

      /edit Couldn't get it from my phone either.
      Last edited by Mk1Racer; 07-23-2012 at 11:00 AM.

    8. Senior Member Binary Star's Avatar
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      07-23-2012 11:02 AM #78
      Quote Originally Posted by Mk1Racer View Post

      @dubsix, Firefox says it can't find the server www.axisofoversteer.com. I'll try it from my phone.

      /edit Couldn't get it from my phone either.
      that link doesn't work... try http://blog.axisofoversteer.com/2012...-penalize.html

      or blog.axisofoversteer.com

    9. Member rrr rr's Avatar
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      07-23-2012 11:05 AM #79
      Quote Originally Posted by Mk1Racer View Post
      Actually, Vettel still had 2 wheels on the curb, and was a nose ahead of Button. That was at the time that Button's car was sideways, and he was roasting the rear tires.

      @dubsix, Firefox says it can't find the server www.axisofoversteer.com. I'll try it from my phone.

      /edit Couldn't get it from my phone either.
      It doesn't have a www subdomain. Go to http://blog.axisofoversteer.com or just http://axisofoversteer.com (which redirects to the blog subdomain).
      PSN: gospracrgo

    10. Member Mk1Racer's Avatar
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      07-23-2012 11:13 AM #80
      I originally clicked on the link, and it didn't work. Seems to be up now.

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      07-23-2012 11:15 AM #81
      Quote Originally Posted by Oliver@triplezoom View Post

      Hamilton's pass on Vettel was awesome. Not sure what Vettel's problem with that is. Hamilton was obviously faster at that point and he had a good chance of making some passes on the backmarkers that would have been blue flagged. Can't blame him for trying to salvage the race.
      Racer's etiquette says that a car lapped should not engage with cars that are fighting for a win, which is why Vettel was pissed. I can totally see that. Who would have thought that Hamilton would one day help Alonso win a GP??
      Form is temporary; Class is permanent

    12. Member Hajduk's Avatar
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      07-23-2012 11:18 AM #82
      Quote Originally Posted by Mk1Racer View Post
      Actually, Vettel still had 2 wheels on the curb, and was a nose ahead of Button. That was at the time that Button's car was sideways, and he was roasting the rear tires.
      But by that time Vettel had already decided to straighten out the car and head off track. That's why he got ahead of Button. The point at which Vettel decided to head off the track, he was behind Button.

    13. Member nickthaskater's Avatar
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      07-23-2012 11:22 AM #83
      Quote Originally Posted by Mk1Racer View Post
      Actually, Vettel still had 2 wheels on the curb, and was a nose ahead of Button. That was at the time that Button's car was sideways, and he was roasting the rear tires.
      Yup; it's pretty clear in the pics I posted that they were at least side by side when Vettel was getting over the curbing, if not Vettel being slightly ahead.

      Quote Originally Posted by Hajduk View Post
      But by that time Vettel had already decided to straighten out the car and head off track. That's why he got ahead of Button. The point at which Vettel decided to head off the track, he was behind Button.
      Except that he wasn't.
      Last edited by nickthaskater; 07-23-2012 at 11:25 AM.

    14. Member Hajduk's Avatar
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      07-23-2012 11:28 AM #84
      Quote Originally Posted by nickthaskater View Post
      Yup; it's pretty clear in the pics I posted that they were at least side by side when Vettel was getting over the curbing, if not Vettel being slightly ahead.
      Side-by-side meaning "at least a car width apart" ...


      Quote Originally Posted by nickthaskater View Post
      Except that he wasn't.

    15. Member Mk1Racer's Avatar
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      07-23-2012 11:32 AM #85
      Quote Originally Posted by Hajduk View Post
      But by that time Vettel had already decided to straighten out the car and head off track. That's why he got ahead of Button. The point at which Vettel decided to head off the track, he was behind Button.
      Except that it doesn't look like he 'straightened it out', but more like he didn't try and pinch it back in. If you look at the pics from 10-15 meters up the road, you can clearly see Button's car sideways w/ large streaks of rubber behind it from him spinning the tires.

      Quote Originally Posted by Hajduk View Post
      Side-by-side meaning "at least a car width apart" ...




      That's maybe 1/2 a car width, at best.

    16. Senior Member Binary Star's Avatar
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      07-23-2012 11:33 AM #86

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      07-23-2012 11:35 AM #87
      Just watched the race...

      I did not know you can use DRS with a back marker in front of you? Ex. Alonso using it in the zone with a lapped car. Clever of Alonso to "time" it that way when the opportunity was there.

      Also, had Vettel made the Button pass with ~10 laps remaining, would race control have asked him to move over and let Button regain position? 20 seconds vs a 1 lower position penalty is huge in this case.

    18. Member Mk1Racer's Avatar
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      07-23-2012 11:36 AM #88
      ^^ That's why it was even an issue at all. I watched Button's pit stop and thought to myself "Did the car ever actually stop moving?" That was simply an amazing pit stop. Knew it was <3 seconds. Had no idea it was <2.5 seconds!

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      07-23-2012 11:43 AM #89
      Quote Originally Posted by Mk1Racer View Post
      ^^ That's why it was even an issue at all. I watched Button's pit stop and thought to myself "Did the car ever actually stop moving?" That was simply an amazing pit stop. Knew it was <3 seconds. Had no idea it was <2.5 seconds!
      Actually 2.3 and some change! Fastest EVER! Got him ahead of Vettel.....
      Form is temporary; Class is permanent

    20. 07-23-2012 11:51 AM #90
      Quote Originally Posted by tbvvw View Post
      Also, had Vettel made the Button pass with ~10 laps remaining, would race control have asked him to move over and let Button regain position? 20 seconds vs a 1 lower position penalty is huge in this case.
      The stewards don't have a lot of choice, as that is the way the rules are written. Look at Schumacher and the safety car fiasco at Monaco in 2010. He got absolutely raped by the 20-second post-race penalty since all the cars were bunched up by a safety car, all because of a vague rule and a desire by Bernie not to have the safety car cross the finish line first and ruin the photo ops.
      Quote Originally Posted by 20aeman View Post
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    21. Member Mk1Racer's Avatar
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      07-23-2012 12:09 PM #91
      Quote Originally Posted by Double-V View Post
      The stewards don't have a lot of choice, as that is the way the rules are written. Look at Schumacher and the safety car fiasco at Monaco in 2010. He got absolutely raped by the 20-second post-race penalty since all the cars were bunched up by a safety car, all because of a vague rule and a desire by Bernie not to have the safety car cross the finish line first and ruin the photo ops.
      So why wasn't Hamilton penalized for passing Rosberg w/ 4 wheels off at Bahrain? I'm pretty sure this rule was written to address the issue of someone improving their position by cutting a chicane. If the tracks actually had grass (or a gravel trap) outside of the curbing, rather than concrete w/ green paint, this also wouldn't be an issue. A lot of drivers took advantage of this, Alonso included. The drivers know it's concrete and not grass, so they know they can push it out there. Martin Brundle made a comment about someone being a 'clever lad' (Hamilton?) for knowing that, and using it to his advantage during a pass (albeit not w/ 4 wheels off).

    22. 07-23-2012 12:17 PM #92
      Quote Originally Posted by nickthaskater View Post
      Ding-ding

      I like how when Button doesn't want to drag up the incident that it's "classy", but when Seb keeps his mouth shut it's "fibbing".
      Vettel wasnt forced off the road; he made a conscience descision to pass off the track. Hamilton was forced off as his nose was already inside of rosberg who was illegally blocking I might add.

      I wouldn't have penalized Vettel. But he should have just stuck his nose behind Button and taken him on the last lap.

      Ding DIng

      Button was leading entering the corner so he had every right to use up all the road. Just like Hamilton Vs Maldonaldo.

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      07-23-2012 12:19 PM #93
      This is tough to call. This clip has two different views in the first 30 sec and another at the 1min point.

      http://vimeo.com/46184723

      Coming out of the turn they are side by side. Button's rears are loose and he puts two tires off just trying to keep the car in order. IMO Vettel had no choice but to go off.

      That's assuming he was under control of his car and put it off on purpose. It's harder to tell if Vettle's off was to avoid Button (which is totally viable) or if he too had to go off just to keep his car in order.

      I'd say Vellel was in the right just because I can't find evidence he went off prior to being forced off.
      "There is no moral. It's just a bunch of stuff that happens."

    24. 07-23-2012 12:23 PM #94
      Quote Originally Posted by Binary Star View Post
      Quote Originally Posted by tbvvw View Post
      Just watched the race...

      I did not know you can use DRS with a back marker in front of you? Ex. Alonso using it in the zone with a lapped car. Clever of Alonso to "time" it that way when the opportunity was there.

      Also, had Vettel made the Button pass with ~10 laps remaining, would race control have asked him to move over and let Button regain position? 20 seconds vs a 1 lower position penalty is huge in this case.
      Yes Button owes his second place all to the team. His pit crew with a lightining 2.5 sec stop and to Hamilton for taking it to Vettel. I laugh when a 'racer' claims one shouldn't pass a car that is slower than him. That is comedy right there.

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      07-23-2012 12:29 PM #95
      "Lo so che non e facile, ma cercate di stare tranquilli.
      Qui e tutto a posto"!

      Alonso responded to his engineer when he was told that Button and Vettel were coming at him fast on lap 62.
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    26. 07-23-2012 12:34 PM #96
      Quote Originally Posted by Mk1Racer View Post
      Somebody refresh my memory why Hamilton didn't get penalized for doing essentially the same thing to Rosberg in Bahrain.
      That took place on a straightway and it was in question whether Rosberg was going to get penalized for running Hamilton off the road (he didn't).



      You can see here that although Vettel gets his nose/half his car ahead of Button running down to the turn, Button has the inside line around the corner and is again ahead of Vettel. At best, they are even when Vettel decides to go off road and gains an advantage on Button.


      1:17-1:25 in the video

      In the Rosberg-Hamilton incident, Hamilton seems to rejoin side by side with Rosberg and then they drag to the next corner.

    27. Member Mk1Racer's Avatar
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      07-23-2012 01:54 PM #97
      Quote Originally Posted by capsaicin View Post
      This is tough to call. This clip has two different views in the first 30 sec and another at the 1min point.

      http://vimeo.com/46184723

      Coming out of the turn they are side by side. Button's rears are loose and he puts two tires off just trying to keep the car in order. IMO Vettel had no choice but to go off.

      That's assuming he was under control of his car and put it off on purpose. It's harder to tell if Vettle's off was to avoid Button (which is totally viable) or if he too had to go off just to keep his car in order.

      I'd say Vellel was in the right just because I can't find evidence he went off prior to being forced off.
      I don't recall seeing that footage on the SKY feed. Vettel certainly didn't 'straighten' the car to drive it off the road. And if you look at 0:17-0:22, you could make a case that Button made two moves to defend. As Vettel is closing, he moves to the inside. Button moves to the inside edge of the track to cover. As Vettel cuts left and pulls out, you can see Button move back towards the center of the track. Didn't matter, as Vettel was already by. And if you look at 0:06 (in-car) and 0:25 (aerial) of that feed, you can see Button's car pushing as he comes off the apex. If he hadn't spun it up and gotten it sideways, he probably would have driven right into Vettel.

      Quote Originally Posted by gizmopop View Post
      That took place on a straightway and it was in question whether Rosberg was going to get penalized for running Hamilton off the road (he didn't).
      I don't think the rule only applies to corners. And it doesn't matter, since Rosberg wasn't penalized. Hamilton clearly drove w/ 4 wheels off the circuit, and improved his position over Rosberg. If anything, Rosberg not being penalized means that he was well w/in his right to put his car where he did. That makes Hamilton even more in the wrong for putting 4 wheels off and improving his position. That is, if the stewards are going to be consistent.

    28. Member rrr rr's Avatar
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      07-23-2012 02:42 PM #98
      Quote Originally Posted by enigmatic enthusiast View Post
      Button was leading entering the corner so he had every right to use up all the road. Just like Hamilton Vs Maldonaldo.
      No. If another car is along side you, you cannot force them off track, regardless of who was leading entering the corner. In fact, it was recently clarified that if a significant portion of a car is along side you, you must leave room. A significant portion was defined as the front wing of the trailing car along side the rear wheel of the leading car.

      In this case, Vettel was not forced off track. He left the track before the space disappeared. But, if he had kept at least two wheels inside the white line, he and Button would have collided. In my opinion, he should have given the position back and tried again.
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    29. Member Professor Gascan's Avatar
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      07-23-2012 02:46 PM #99
      The difference between these incidences is the likelihood of causing a collision on track. Vettel knew full well where Button's car was; Button was ahead and inside at the apex. If Vettel wants to stay on the track, he lifts, tucks in, and passes at turn 8 (IIRC.) The Stewards clearly felt that it was his choice to leave the track, rather than the actions of another driver. Hamilton had one choice to avoid taking himself and Rosberg out of the race: go off the track. Likewise, Hamilton re-enters the track alongside Rosberg; Vettel completed the pass outside the track.

      I'll take it as telling that I have yet to find anyone who isn't a Vettel fan or a McLaren hater who disagrees with the Stewards decision.
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    30. Member nickthaskater's Avatar
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      07-23-2012 03:14 PM #100
      Quote Originally Posted by Professor Gascan View Post
      I'll take it as telling that I have yet to find anyone who isn't a Vettel fan or a McLaren hater who disagrees with the Stewards decision.
      It's equally telling that those who agree are the reverse.

    31. Member Professor Gascan's Avatar
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      07-23-2012 03:57 PM #101
      Quote Originally Posted by nickthaskater View Post
      It's equally telling that those who agree are the reverse.
      Hardly, since the Stewards would fit in that category. ;-) of course, they're in the pocket of Ferrari and this is just a way to help them, right?
      Fires are the leading cause of fires.

    32. 07-23-2012 04:28 PM #102
      Quote Originally Posted by Mk1Racer View Post
      I don't think the rule only applies to corners. And it doesn't matter, since Rosberg wasn't penalized. Hamilton clearly drove w/ 4 wheels off the circuit, and improved his position over Rosberg. If anything, Rosberg not being penalized means that he was well w/in his right to put his car where he did. That makes Hamilton even more in the wrong for putting 4 wheels off and improving his position. That is, if the stewards are going to be consistent.
      I mentioned where it took place on the track because of what degree of control each driver had in each situation, not because of any relevance to a rule.
      Rosberg/Hamilton incident happen on a straightway where Rosberg being ahead had the whole track at his disposal, he moved to his right to defend his position by driving into Hamilton. If Hamilton did not have part of his car past the rear of Rosbergs car then he could have easily passed to the left side of Rosberg and avoid his chop motion. <--- that wasn't the case as Rosbergs move to his right caused Hamilton to off-road it. Hamilton returned to track side by side with Rosberg and they had a run down to the next corner.

      In the Button/Vettel incident, Button had the inside line going into the turn, his car was ahead. The difference here was that since it was on a turn Button was limited on where he could place his car. He was basically late braking into a hairpin with tires quickly deteriorating. (as has been pointed out). Vettel was driven off the track, but instead of surging ahead like he did, he should have come even with Button after returning to the track and then pass him.

    33. Member Mk1Racer's Avatar
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      07-23-2012 06:04 PM #103
      Quote Originally Posted by gizmopop View Post

      In the Button/Vettel incident, Button had the inside line going into the turn, his car was ahead. The difference here was that since it was on a turn Button was limited on where he could place his car. He was basically late braking into a hairpin with tires quickly deteriorating. (as has been pointed out). Vettel was driven off the track, but instead of surging ahead like he did, he should have come even with Button after returning to the track and then pass him.
      The problem is, Button didn't leave him any room to return to the track when they were side by side. Button took the car in hot, and as a result, it pushed badly after the apex (very early apex on that corner). He should be glad that Vettel didn't try to keep the car on the track, as Button would have driven right into him, taking them both out. Then Button would be getting a penalty at the next race for causing a collision.

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      07-23-2012 06:33 PM #104
      Quote Originally Posted by Mk1Racer View Post
      The problem is, Button didn't leave him any room to return to the track when they were side by side. Button took the car in hot, and as a result, it pushed badly after the apex (very early apex on that corner). He should be glad that Vettel didn't try to keep the car on the track, as Button would have driven right into him, taking them both out. Then Button would be getting a penalty at the next race for causing a collision.

      That's my main point in this whole deal, as irrelevant as it is.

      Let's just let them run wherever the hell they want, be it paved, gravel or grass. If you can pull it off, give'r hell.

      First corner at Spa is another place where people commonly go wide and gain position, but I don't recall there ever being any reprimands for that. The ridiculous inconsistency is what f*cks everything up here. Make no exceptions to crossing the lines or just scrap the rule altogether.

    35. 07-23-2012 07:29 PM #105
      Quote Originally Posted by Mk1Racer View Post
      The problem is, Button didn't leave him any room to return to the track when they were side by side.
      The problem that netted Vettel a 20 second penalty was he passed Button by leaving the confines of the track. What Vettel needed to do is once he returned to track was slow down and let Button come equal to him again(acknowledging that he gained an advantage and subsequently relinquished it) and then race on...Vettel would have likely passed him within 2 corners.
      Quote Originally Posted by Mk1Racer View Post
      He should be glad that Vettel didn't try to keep the car on the track, as Button would have driven right into him, taking them both out. Then Button would be getting a penalty at the next race for causing a collision.
      Actually this almost the same situation (without the accident) as Maldonado and Hamilton. Hamilton defended a position, Maldonado forced the issue and crashed into Hamilton. Maldonado got the penalty next race.

      A driver takes a rival to the edge like that he is typically expecting him to back off.

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