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    Thread: Official FORMULA 1 GROSSER PREIS SANTANDER VON DEUTSCHLAND 2012

    1. Member Hawk's Avatar
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      07-23-2012 12:42 AM #51
      Yeah, I think we can all agree Sebastian went just a wee bit off track to pass.


    2. Member nickthaskater's Avatar
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      07-23-2012 01:04 AM #52
      Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
      Yeah, I think we can all agree Sebastian went just a wee bit off track to pass.

      They were side by side on the exit, and had Vettel held it on the track, Jenson would have collected him given that, like Vettel, he probably couldn't tell where exactly the other car was. Jenson ran right out to the curbing, and there is no way Vettel would have had room without being hit by Jenson. Note the rubber Jenson is laying down as he's spinning his rears and sliding wide, just what Vettel said he was trying to avoid by going wide.







      Like I said, it can be seen either way given that they weren't wheel-to-wheel inches apart when Vettel went off given that Vettel preempted Jenson's going "wide". Ironic that if Vettel had held his line and potentially forced an incident that he would have been the one to get off the hook
      Last edited by nickthaskater; 07-23-2012 at 01:15 AM.

    3. Member 24vEngineer's Avatar
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      07-23-2012 01:14 AM #53
      Quote Originally Posted by Oliver@triplezoom View Post
      I wouldn't be so quick to say that. He had bad luck in this race and yet still has 30 points on Button. Button has really been struggling during the last few races and has been all over the map in terms of finishing position. Hamilton has been quite consistent, with his worst finish being 8th aside from his two retirements. I would hardly say his season is "falling apart" after suffering some bad luck in two non consecutive races.

      Clearly, the McLaren car has seen some significant improvements and I wouldn't be surprised to see both McLarens running near the front in the next few races.
      Hamilton definitely isn't done, there are still 10 races to go. I do believe that this will affect his mental game. When things are going good, Hamilton is on top of the world and drives well. When bad luck hits or the car isn't performing like he would have, he doesnt have the ability to not whine.

      Alonso looks strong and if Ferrari keeps up the development on the car he might begin to dominate.

      Oh BTW fox SUCKS! Those guys had absolutely no idea what was going on. They sounded like they were in a convalescence home and the nurse forgot to bring their pills.

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      07-23-2012 01:14 AM #54
      Quote Originally Posted by enigmatic enthusiast View Post
      aww LOL someone has their panties in a bunch. And this race is just further proof that vettel isn't in Alonso's class. Button isn't even in the conversation.
      Can't take anything away from Alonso, the guy is clearly on top of his game and has made the most out of a sub-par chassis. Conversely, Button has had a rough time with the new MacLaren and that is unfortunate...but hopefully they have dialed in some changes that will better suit him going forward. He has had a rough and disappointing season, but he's still one of my favorite drivers, and is always such a class act. Today's podium interview is a prime example.


      Quote Originally Posted by nickthaskater View Post
      Sucks for Vettel as it could be argued either way with how Jenson went right to the edge in corner exit and even lost the back end a bit as Vettel said he was concerned about, but those are the breaks. It would have been nice for the FIA to simply get on the radio and say "give the position back" rather than slapping a drive thru despite no warning, but I'm sure Vettel will come back.
      Not so much. Vettel was driving all over the place in a desperate attempt to gain positions in the closing laps. He was going off track left and right, and happened to go off track to pass Button. Rules are rules, and with it being the next to last lap, there wasn't a whole lot of time for the stewards to assess a penalty before the race was over. Vettel is really starting to annoy me with his whining and sense of entitlement. I get that he is a fast driver, but complaining about Hamilton passing him (and throwing a fit from the cockpit) is really pretty childish.

    5. Member nickthaskater's Avatar
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      07-23-2012 01:22 AM #55
      Quote Originally Posted by TBomb View Post
      Not so much. Vettel was driving all over the place in a desperate attempt to gain positions in the closing laps. He was going off track left and right, and happened to go off track to pass Button. Rules are rules, and with it being the next to last lap, there wasn't a whole lot of time for the stewards to assess a penalty before the race was over. Vettel is really starting to annoy me with his whining and sense of entitlement. I get that he is a fast driver, but complaining about Hamilton passing him (and throwing a fit from the cockpit) is really pretty childish.
      "Driving all over the place"? Okay... Not really, but sure. If you're talking about using the run-off in the corners like most everyone else was doing, yeah, you're right, and so did the race winner, but I don't see you complaining about that.

      It's also a rule that you can't force an opponent off the track, which it could be argued is exactly what happened. But it's done, so whatever.

      Pretty much every driver out there has had more than their share of "childish" moments, but yea, let's single out Vettel, because everyone needs a whipping boy. It was just as childish of Lewis to want to run back to the motorhome after getting a flat tire and being relegated to the back of the pack even though his car was one of the fastest out there even after the incident.

    6. Senior Member Mk1Racer's Avatar
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      07-23-2012 05:23 AM #56
      Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
      Yeah, I think we can all agree Sebastian went just a wee bit off track to pass.

      Somebody refresh my memory why Hamilton didn't get penalized for doing essentially the same thing to Rosberg in Bahrain.

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      07-23-2012 08:29 AM #57
      Quote Originally Posted by Mk1Racer View Post
      Somebody refresh my memory why Hamilton didn't get penalized for doing essentially the same thing to Rosberg in Bahrain.
      Ahhhhh thats a good one!

    8. Member Hawk's Avatar
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      07-23-2012 08:30 AM #58
      Quote Originally Posted by nickthaskater View Post
      It's also a rule that you can't force an opponent off the track, which it could be argued is exactly what happened.
      It's not forcing someone off the track to take the racing line that you're entitled to as the first driver around the corner. Every competitor uses the full track to execute the fastest turn. Every driver cuts in towards the apex and then runs out to the edge of the track as they exit the corner. Vettel was stupid enough to try and get up alongside the outside of Button at this exact point and he ran himself off the track. Jenson's race line was normal and predictable. It wasn't like he swerved into him or went out of his way to change his line (a la Schumacher of old). The silly thing is Vettel had the faster car at that point and had he just waited a few more corners would have easily passed him.

      Anyway, clearly stewarts agree and I'm glad to see Vettel get dropped all the way back to 5th.

      One other thing, I find it funny that week after week everyone talks about how awful the Ferrari is and what a god Alonso is for getting it around the track. Maybe it ain't so awful after all?

    9. Member capsaicin's Avatar
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      07-23-2012 09:00 AM #59
      Quote Originally Posted by nickthaskater View Post
      They were side by side on the exit, and had Vettel held it on the track, Jenson would have collected him given that, like Vettel, he probably couldn't tell where exactly the other car was. Jenson ran right out to the curbing, and there is no way Vettel would have had room without being hit by Jenson. Note the rubber Jenson is laying down as he's spinning his rears and sliding wide, just what Vettel said he was trying to avoid by going wide.

      Like I said, it can be seen either way given that they weren't wheel-to-wheel inches apart when Vettel went off given that Vettel preempted Jenson's going "wide". Ironic that if Vettel had held his line and potentially forced an incident that he would have been the one to get off the hook
      I agree. It looks like Seb's warranted caution to put distance between him and Button cost him. If he had tried to stay on course he would have been caught in the side of the Mclaren or the stewards would have better seen it as being forced off. Tough luck.

      Quote Originally Posted by TBomb
      Not so much. Vettel was driving all over the place in a desperate attempt to gain positions in the closing laps. He was going off track left and right...
      A pass is made on a single corner of a single lap. Doesn't matter what he did on lap 63, 64, 65, 12, 15, 37.

      Quote Originally Posted by Mk1Racer
      Somebody refresh my memory why Hamilton didn't get penalized for doing essentially the same thing to Rosberg in Bahrain.
      Yup.
      "There is no moral. It's just a bunch of stuff that happens."

    10. Senior Member Mk1Racer's Avatar
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      07-23-2012 09:24 AM #60
      Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
      It's not forcing someone off the track to take the racing line that you're entitled to as the first driver around the corner. Every competitor uses the full track to execute the fastest turn. Every driver cuts in towards the apex and then runs out to the edge of the track as they exit the corner. Vettel was stupid enough to try and get up alongside the outside of Button at this exact point and he ran himself off the track. Jenson's race line was normal and predictable. It wasn't like he swerved into him or went out of his way to change his line (a la Schumacher of old). The silly thing is Vettel had the faster car at that point and had he just waited a few more corners would have easily passed him.

      Anyway, clearly stewarts agree and I'm glad to see Vettel get dropped all the way back to 5th.

      One other thing, I find it funny that week after week everyone talks about how awful the Ferrari is and what a god Alonso is for getting it around the track. Maybe it ain't so awful after all?
      I forget which race it was, but it was at least as late as Canada where the FIA came out and said that if the overtaking car had any part next to the car ahead, the car ahead had to yield the corner.

    11. Member Hawk's Avatar
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      07-23-2012 09:28 AM #61
      Quote Originally Posted by Mk1Racer View Post
      I forget which race it was, but it was at least as late as Canada where the FIA came out and said that if the overtaking car had any part next to the car ahead, the car ahead had to yield the corner.
      I'd love to see that rule. That's pretty ridiculous. That would mean all I'd have to do is jam my nose up the inside of any corner (even if a pass is completley impossible) and you have to move out of the way for me? How is that racing?


    12. Senior Member Binary Star's Avatar
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      07-23-2012 09:35 AM #62
      What a race! Damn... so much going on. Well done from Alonso - absolute beast! Did a great job looking after his tires while defending from both Button and Vettel and even put in the second fastest time of the race on lap 66! Ferrari is not as bad as it seemed on hard tires during the beginning of the season. I liked his radio communication - when his race engineer told him that Vettel and Button were catching up fast, he simply said "don't worry" or something like that in Italian.

      Ferrari and McL's top speeds are far greater than the Bulls (308/309). Kick ass drives from Kobayashi (14th to 4th), Kimi (10th to 3rd) and Perez (12 to 5th).

      and from the sound of it, glad I didn't watch the FOX broadcast. Sky's was beautiful - no commercials is a wonderful thing!

    13. Member capsaicin's Avatar
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      07-23-2012 09:41 AM #63
      Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
      I'd love to see that rule. That's pretty ridiculous. That would mean all I'd have to do is jam my nose up the inside of any corner (even if a pass is completley impossible) and you have to move out of the way for me? How is that racing?

      If someone is beside you in a corner you are expected to not make contact. That's pretty obvious, right? You are also expected to not run them off track. What's left? You leave room for a car if they are beside you in any way.

      This doesn't guarantee you lose position. They've still got to make the pass.

      Otherwise you're allowing drivers to run everyone off track and the only passes happen on the straights?
      "There is no moral. It's just a bunch of stuff that happens."

    14. 07-23-2012 10:01 AM #64
      Good race, too bad a puncture at the wrong part of the lap ruins any chance of points in races these days... to catch the pack with the tires these days guarantees you will be destroying your tires quickly, insuring another stop negating any gains. Loved Lewis unlapping himself was entertaining to watch. Seems Vettel and RB are slamming Lewis for doing so in the press.

      Lol at Vettel caught fibbing on camera.. when asked by Lauda post race Vettel if he hadn't heard anything about the pass from Button, Vettel said "no" when minutes before the camera caught Button discussing the move with Vettel at length. Was a like a Schumacher flash back for me.

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      07-23-2012 10:06 AM #65
      Quote Originally Posted by Binary Star View Post
      and from the sound of it, glad I didn't watch the FOX broadcast. Sky's was beautiful - no commercials is a wonderful thing!
      Did you stream or download Sky's coverage?

    16. 07-23-2012 10:13 AM #66
      This is a nicely explained write up on when Vettel did get a penalty.. (on a great blog written btw by people who actually race)

      http://blog.axisofoversteer.com/2012...-penalize.html

    17. Member nickthaskater's Avatar
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      07-23-2012 10:19 AM #67
      Quote Originally Posted by Mk1Racer View Post
      Somebody refresh my memory why Hamilton didn't get penalized for doing essentially the same thing to Rosberg in Bahrain.
      Ding-ding
      Quote Originally Posted by dubsix View Post
      Lol at Vettel caught fibbing on camera.. when asked by Lauda post race Vettel if he hadn't heard anything about the pass from Button, Vettel said "no" when minutes before the camera caught Button discussing the move with Vettel at length. Was a like a Schumacher flash back for me.
      I like how when Button doesn't want to drag up the incident that it's "classy", but when Seb keeps his mouth shut it's "fibbing".

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      07-23-2012 10:26 AM #68
      Quote Originally Posted by nickthaskater View Post
      Like I said, it can be seen either way given that they weren't wheel-to-wheel inches apart when Vettel went off given that Vettel preempted Jenson's going "wide". Ironic that if Vettel had held his line and potentially forced an incident that he would have been the one to get off the hook
      It is funny how similar this incident is to the Maldonado/Hamilton incident in Spain, minus the second corner of the chicane. I think if Maldonado had held his line, instead of going off-track and coming back on, the collision still would have happened, but it would have been on Hamilton's neck for not leaving enough room.

      The good news here is that the stewards were consistent in their application of the rules.

      Smart racecraft would have been to give the position back to Button, and either have another go later in the lap, or settle for the haul of points. I can't imagine that Horner thought they would actually get away with an off-track pass.
      Quote Originally Posted by 20aeman View Post
      No, the real enthusiast vehicle would be the RX8. It combines V12 Lamborghini gas mileage with Hyundai Genesis 4cyl. performance.

    19. Senior Member Mk1Racer's Avatar
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      07-23-2012 10:28 AM #69
      Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
      I'd love to see that rule. That's pretty ridiculous. That would mean all I'd have to do is jam my nose up the inside of any corner (even if a pass is completley impossible) and you have to move out of the way for me? How is that racing?

      Forget which race it was, but I do remember Martin and David mentioning it. They also commented on how silly it was (and I agree). But I distinctly remember them discussing it.

    20. 07-23-2012 10:30 AM #70
      "he didn't say anything, he didn't complain to me" is not keeping your mouth shut, he could of done what Button did and be "classy".

    21. Senior Member Mk1Racer's Avatar
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      07-23-2012 10:31 AM #71
      Quote Originally Posted by dubsix View Post
      This is a nicely explained write up on when Vettel did get a penalty.. (on a great blog written btw by people who actually race)

      http://blog.axisofoversteer.com/2012...-penalize.html
      Link doesn't work.

    22. Member nickthaskater's Avatar
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      07-23-2012 10:33 AM #72
      Quote Originally Posted by dubsix View Post
      "he didn't say anything, he didn't complain to me" is not keeping your mouth shut, he could of done what Button did and be "classy".
      lol, sure. Good lord, you're petty.

    23. 07-23-2012 10:33 AM #73
      hmmm..works for me... just got to www.axisofoversteer.com you will find the write up there.

    24. 07-23-2012 10:35 AM #74
      Quote Originally Posted by nickthaskater View Post
      lol, sure. Good lord, you're petty.

      sure... but at least I don't reek of Vettel ball sweat all over.

    25. Senior Member Binary Star's Avatar
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      07-23-2012 10:37 AM #75
      Quote Originally Posted by dubsix View Post
      This is a nicely explained write up on when Vettel did get a penalty.. (on a great blog written btw by people who actually race)

      http://blog.axisofoversteer.com/2012...-penalize.html
      With pictures and everything... aaahhh gotta love it.


      Quote Originally Posted by Oliver@triplezoom View Post
      Did you stream or download Sky's coverage?
      Download. I was having a hard time finding a stream so decided to download the race after.

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