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    Thread: No start knock box suspect HELP

    1. Member broke..'s Avatar
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      07-17-2012 09:27 PM #1
      I have been trying to get my 16v swap started and the knock box is only sending 1.3 volts to the hall sender and full battery power to the the fuel pump relay (which should be the ground for the ignition switch current needed to trip the relay)





      is there something that would cause this behavior? or is the box its self bad???

      any suggestions or ideas are welcome

      also if you have a cis-e knock box for sale i would like to buy it, if mine really is bad.

      This is also posted in the 16v engine forum but i figure there is more traffic here in the mk1 section.
      A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. - Douglas Adams

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      1981 Jetta 16v ITB/CIS, 1982 Jetta ABA Turbo, 1977 Scirocco pile
      07-17-2012 09:55 PM #2
      I don't think the knock box will keep the motor from starting
      If it's bad, It will just run worse once it's started
      Correct me if I'm wrong

      What is missing when you try and start it? Fuel, air, spark, or compression?
      I struggled for days when I did my 16v swap, and it was simply that my wiring had power to ground in one spot

    3. Member broke..'s Avatar
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      07-17-2012 11:11 PM #3
      Quote Originally Posted by ArsenicPants View Post
      I don't think the knock box will keep the motor from starting
      If it's bad, It will just run worse once it's started
      Correct me if I'm wrong

      What is missing when you try and start it? Fuel, air, spark, or compression?
      I struggled for days when I did my 16v swap, and it was simply that my wiring had power to ground in one spot
      no fuel and i don't think there is spark, i could pull a plug and confirm but i was trying to tackle one problem at a time.

      the brown wire with a yellow tracer goes to the knock box @ pin #10, it has to be ground in order for the fuel pump to run (jumped it to ground and the relay goes if the ignition is in the running position)

      as this diagram describes


      at pin 9 a wire that is also brown with a yellow tracer leaves the knock box and provides power to the Hall sensor.




      currently the brown/yellow wire to the fuel pump relay is grounded when the key is off, and has battery power when the key is in the running position which it shouldn't.

      there is only 1.3 volts getting to the hall sender while 12 volts is going is going to the fuel pump relay.

      also i have 12v switched coming in through the yellow wire

      i did continuity checks on all the wires that would be questionable and they all check out with next to no resistance.


      i started this thread to make sure i'm not chasing down the wrong problem, has anyone else had the knock box fail on them? i bought this motor in running condition (from someone the vortex).

      suggestions are welcomed i don't know what i'm missing if it's not the knock box that's causing the problem.

      I'm not trying to convince everyone this is what's wrong, i'm just trying to provide as much information as i can to help people make suggestions or help me trouble shoot this.

      tl:dr fuel pump does not prime or run because the knock box is sending power somewhere it shouldn't.
      Last edited by broke..; 07-17-2012 at 11:18 PM.
      A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. - Douglas Adams

    4. Member broke..'s Avatar
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      07-18-2012 02:55 AM #4
      A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. - Douglas Adams

    5. Member broke..'s Avatar
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      07-18-2012 02:47 PM #5


      anyone?
      A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. - Douglas Adams

    6. Member broke..'s Avatar
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      07-18-2012 03:09 PM #6



      it says it should go to ground on the pre 85 cars... but mine is from an A2 and the part number matches it being from an A2

      811 907 397 F
      A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. - Douglas Adams

    7. Member Big Dipper's Avatar
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      07-18-2012 03:34 PM #7
      hey man ive dabbled in this subject before lol. a few thing's first. do NOT plug the knock box in with the key on and the battery connected, that will sometimes cause it to hunt for ground and the smoke will leak out. make sure your ground's are good most important. check the plug and wires in the distributor. If every thing is hooked up turn the key on (car out of gear) loosen the distributor and turn it (listen for click, zzzzzzz, possible start up) your should have at least 2 wires at the coil (green and black) possibly 3 wires there one black with a red stripe switch power from key. I ran a knock box on an 8v cis rabbit with intention of running Nitrous so i had to make my own wireing harnest with all the cis e **** cut out. you should also check the ignition module make shure is not burnt out. good luck man

    8. Member broke..'s Avatar
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      07-18-2012 05:15 PM #8
      Quote Originally Posted by Big Dipper View Post
      hey man ive dabbled in this subject before lol. a few thing's first. do NOT plug the knock box in with the key on and the battery connected, that will sometimes cause it to hunt for ground and the smoke will leak out. make sure your ground's are good most important. check the plug and wires in the distributor. If every thing is hooked up turn the key on (car out of gear) loosen the distributor and turn it (listen for click, zzzzzzz, possible start up) your should have at least 2 wires at the coil (green and black) possibly 3 wires there one black with a red stripe switch power from key. I ran a knock box on an 8v cis rabbit with intention of running Nitrous so i had to make my own wireing harnest with all the cis e **** cut out. you should also check the ignition module make shure is not burnt out. good luck man
      i have yellow switched 12v wire going to coil, and tach signal coming off the negative side.


      i'm assuming that smoke means the knock box is fried right? because i remember seeing a little smoke the first time i tried to start it (the fuel pump primed as it was supposed to then) i didn't think anything of it for some reason i had it hooked up to a battry charger in the car start mode at the time... i think that may have fried it... an everything else possibly??? are there checks for this stuff or do i just have to replace on thing at a time and see?
      A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. - Douglas Adams

    9. Member Big Dipper's Avatar
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      07-19-2012 02:46 PM #9
      Quote Originally Posted by broke.. View Post
      i have yellow switched 12v wire going to coil, and tach signal coming off the negative side.


      i'm assuming that smoke means the knock box is fried right? because i remember seeing a little smoke the first time i tried to start it (the fuel pump primed as it was supposed to then) i didn't think anything of it for some reason i had it hooked up to a battry charger in the car start mode at the time... i think that may have fried it... an everything else possibly??? are there checks for this stuff or do i just have to replace on thing at a time and see?
      doesn't sound good man. shake it and listen for rattly bit's in there. i would start with a different knock box. it is cis e car rite? ill bite my nails for you lol. yellow wire is plugged into #13 terminal on the coil rite? one ground lands on the valve cover stud and another to the battery with a black wire to - on the coil?

    10. Member InSaneV's Avatar
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      07-19-2012 08:31 PM #10
      give it a good sniff.......seriously, if you smell burnt plastic its toast.
      " if you owe a VW and DON'T have AAA gold...your an idiot haha " - NOTHING LEAVES STOCK -
      " Because a 16v g60 sounds like the hand of god bitch slapping your car. " -lagomorph-

    11. Member broke..'s Avatar
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      07-20-2012 12:19 AM #11
      Quote Originally Posted by Big Dipper View Post
      doesn't sound good man. shake it and listen for rattly bit's in there. i would start with a different knock box. it is cis e car rite? ill bite my nails for you lol. yellow wire is plugged into #13 terminal on the coil rite? one ground lands on the valve cover stud and another to the battery with a black wire to - on the coil?
      i opened the box and it appears to be fine with some hot spots around heavier solder points, i remember seeing smoke.

      regardless i got two good knock boxes and a new icm and i'm still having the issue.

      i think i'll try to reground the coil, clean and run fresh wire. but all i have running off the negative side of the coil is the tach signal... whoops. i'm gonna double and triple check grounds tomorrow.

      yea the car is cis-e

      i have an additional cis lambada distro and ecu/icm too but i'm not using it...

      would it be any easier to get that version of cis running...
      A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. - Douglas Adams

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      07-20-2012 02:11 AM #12
      i never put in the knock box on my car when i put the 16v in and it has run great for 1/2 a year

    13. Member broke..'s Avatar
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      07-20-2012 02:35 AM #13
      Quote Originally Posted by canexrabbit View Post
      i never put in the knock box on my car when i put the 16v in and it has run great for 1/2 a year
      yeah well i'd like to run it... i'm not adding the knock box it's part of my stock cis-e engine harness. if everything else fails i may try to get it running with the cis lambada stuff i have... but that may prove to be more of a headache.



      you know i thought i was smart enough to trouble shoot all this ****, but i just get so ****ing frustrated trying to check everything.

      this is my first motor swap and i was never a car person before this.

      all i've done with cars before diving into this swap is a head gasket and timing belt on a 2.5l subaru(helped friends), and timing belt and cam, int, and crankshaft seals on my mk3 jetta(popped the intermediate shaft seal this winter).

      trouble shooting the swap wiring is proving to be very very difficult for me.
      A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. - Douglas Adams

    14. Member Big Dipper's Avatar
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      07-20-2012 12:18 PM #14
      you know i thought i was smart enough to trouble shoot all this ****, but i just get so ****ing frustrated trying to check everything.

      this is my first motor swap and i was never a car person before this.

      all i've done with cars before diving into this swap is a head gasket and timing belt on a 2.5l subaru(helped friends), and timing belt and cam, int, and crankshaft seals on my mk3 jetta(popped the intermediate shaft seal this winter).

      trouble shooting the swap wiring is proving to be very very difficult for me.[/QUOTE]

      it's all good man i have faith in you, just take a deep breath, take your time, and dont let it get to you. the first time i wired up a rabbit with a 16v i had the same headache (no smoke though) ended up being one wire that needed power from the coil had to cut the male connector off and crimp a female connector on and plug it in (i think it was a black wire with a red stripe).
      Re fresh me on a few things here..... is the fuse box in the car stock? what style/year fuse box, round fuse? square fuse? are the fuse's good not blown (after the smoke action)? what year is the harness your using for the knock setup? do you have a diagram that matches the color of wires your using?
      Last edited by Big Dipper; 07-20-2012 at 12:21 PM.

    15. Member Big CADDY's Avatar
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      07-20-2012 12:54 PM #15
      I don't remember ever hooking up Pin #10. I think that may be a fuel cut off for RPMs.

      maybe disconnect it from the Knock Box setup and ground it so it closes when the key is on and cranking

    16. Member Big Dipper's Avatar
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      07-20-2012 01:03 PM #16
      Quote Originally Posted by Big CADDY View Post
      I don't remember ever hooking up Pin #10. I think that may be a fuel cut off for RPMs.

      maybe disconnect it from the Knock Box setup and ground it so it closes when the key is on and cranking
      rev limiter i grounded mine too

    17. Member broke..'s Avatar
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      07-21-2012 02:00 AM #17
      it's all good man i have faith in you, just take a deep breath, take your time, and dont let it get to you. the first time i wired up a rabbit with a 16v i had the same headache (no smoke though) ended up being one wire that needed power from the coil had to cut the male connector off and crimp a female connector on and plug it in (i think it was a black wire with a red stripe).
      Re fresh me on a few things here..... is the fuse box in the car stock? what style/year fuse box, round fuse? square fuse? are the fuse's good not blown (after the smoke action)? what year is the harness your using for the knock setup? do you have a diagram that matches the color of wires your using?[/QUOTE]

      77 rabbit, stock wiring and fuseblock inside (ceramic fuses,OE fuel pump relay on top of fuse block )

      the motor is from an 87 and i have all the proper diagrams

      i also have bentley manual that covers scirrocco 16vs so i can do some trouble shooting from there. as well as the manual for my 77 rabbit

      i have my coil wired up to this diagram's specs and the engine



      A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. - Douglas Adams

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