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    Thread: Are these lease prices legit?

    1. Member Justin14's Avatar
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      07-21-2012 10:21 AM #26
      Quote Originally Posted by 06jettaSEL View Post
      On that it's hard to say. VW or any car company and dealers have these promotions on certain models equipped in a specific way. The money factor may jump drastically when you add options to a car, regardless of only a small bump in price and because they are unwilling to negotiate on a car that's equipped to sell faster.

      This is why many cheap leases are for the automatic transmission only, even though the manual trim has a cheaper MSRP, the car payment may jump due to the money factor and lower residual that comes with owning a manual (it may only be a 3-4% residual change but that equates to $20-30/mo) because the leasing company knows people who buy a stick will be more likely to put it through the ringer and automatic is easier to sell post lease for more money on most cars.

      In the case of the golf, a base golf has a 54% residual and a base GTi has a 59% residual last time I checked a few months ago. You can't change the residual as it's set by the leasing company - in this case it will cost about as much to lease a golf 2.5 w/convenience pck as as a base GTi - and the base GTi is a much better car.

      The $199/mo lease isn't bad for a national offer on a golf, because it requires an $1100 dealer contribution which is sufficient on an $18k car. The joke national offer in particular was the '13 GTi, which requires only $285 from a dealer because they're still trying to clear out 2012s.

      If you come to Gunther you can score a base GTi for $220/mo with $2500 due at signing. They have plenty available.
      Thanks. Where is this Gunther? Do you work there?

      I'm hoping to purchase a '11 in black 2.5. But, there are only about 2 for sale on this side of the COUNTRY. Wtf? So I may have to lease.

      What exactly do I say to negotiate the lease? The residual won't change so I have to get them to come down on the money factor and/or the total price often car right?

      Ps- if it's not more than 400 mi away an you work there, I'll buy from you!

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      07-21-2012 12:58 PM #27
      Ha, no I don't sell cars but I have leased cars for myself, friends and family so know a thing or two about it. My friend sells cars and is completely clueless about the financing aspect of it. That's what the finance/sales manager is around for, to mess with those numbers and close the deal.

      Gunther is in Florida (Ft Lauderdale.)

      First you should go for a test drive and get a quote. Then tell them you'll think about it. Don't mention the national offer or anything because then you'll be stuck paying that price. Post back here and we can try to go from there. The 2.5L golf, again is a cheap car, so they don't make much on them in the first place.

      You can always tell them you're budget is $180/mo and then they'll try to fudge around your down payment to match that monthly. In which case you negotiate that down to $2k or see what the lowest they're willing to go. That's probably what I would try to do.

      When I inquired about a Golf R 6 months ago they called me back recently and said they'll give me a great price. Of course now I want nothing to do with it.
      Last edited by 06jettaSEL; 07-21-2012 at 01:00 PM.

    3. Member Justin14's Avatar
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      07-21-2012 04:14 PM #28
      Quote Originally Posted by 06jettaSEL View Post
      Ha, no I don't sell cars but I have leased cars for myself, friends and family so know a thing or two about it. My friend sells cars and is completely clueless about the financing aspect of it. That's what the finance/sales manager is around for, to mess with those numbers and close the deal.

      Gunther is in Florida (Ft Lauderdale.)

      First you should go for a test drive and get a quote. Then tell them you'll think about it. Don't mention the national offer or anything because then you'll be stuck paying that price. Post back here and we can try to go from there. The 2.5L golf, again is a cheap car, so they don't make much on them in the first place.

      You can always tell them you're budget is $180/mo and then they'll try to fudge around your down payment to match that monthly. In which case you negotiate that down to $2k or see what the lowest they're willing to go. That's probably what I would try to do.

      When I inquired about a Golf R 6 months ago they called me back recently and said they'll give me a great price. Of course now I want nothing to do with it.
      First thing I have to do is find a 2 dr manual golf that doesn't have the highway wind noise problem.
      Last edited by Justin14; 07-21-2012 at 04:17 PM.

    4. 07-23-2012 08:27 AM #29
      Quote Originally Posted by Justin14 View Post

      36 months 12k mi/yr $1999 down, $199/mo (based on MSRP $18,765 per VW.com)

      But, I want the "convenience package". (htd seats, BT) ($19,030 according to VW.com)

      geniuses!!
      This is easy. The cost of the convenience package is aprox $265? In the 36 month lease you will pay for about half of it. To make your life easy, lets assume 50% residual on the lease, right? maybe off by +/- 1% or 2 % Sooooo...

      $265 x 50% = 135. That's your part you pay over the 3 year lease, so space that out by 36 payments. $135 divided by 36 months means it adds aprox $3.75 per month to the payment.

      Easy right? I promised this isn't complicated.

    5. 07-23-2012 08:35 AM #30
      Simply shop the payment.

      Its the common entity and all you need to know. If dealer A has higher money factor, different residual, lower sales price, and conflicting oddball fees than dealer B, who cares? Simply shop the payment, only the payment and nothing but the payment. All you want to do is rent for the lowest total payment and put nothing out of your own pocket.

      This is leasing 101: If you merely compare it to renting an apartment. What do you care about how exactly the Rental Agency/Landlord/Leasing Company came to the total monthly payment? Don't complicate things.

    6. Member Justin14's Avatar
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      07-23-2012 09:16 AM #31
      Quote Originally Posted by gsprobe View Post
      Simply shop the payment.

      Its the common entity and all you need to know. If dealer A has higher money factor, different residual, lower sales price, and conflicting oddball fees than dealer B, who cares? Simply shop the payment, only the payment and nothing but the payment. All you want to do is rent for the lowest total payment and put nothing out of your own pocket.

      This is leasing 101: If you merely compare it to renting an apartment. What do you care about how exactly the Rental Agency/Landlord/Leasing Company came to the total monthly payment? Don't complicate things.
      Thanks. Well hold on, what if there's a chance I want to buy it at the end of the lease? Now do I care how he got to the payment?

    7. 07-23-2012 10:19 AM #32
      Quote Originally Posted by Justin14 View Post
      Thanks. Well hold on, what if there's a chance I want to buy it at the end of the lease? Now do I care how he got to the payment?
      Then buy it now at 0% for 60 months...

    8. 07-23-2012 10:26 AM #33
      Quote Originally Posted by Justin14 View Post
      Thanks. Well hold on, what if there's a chance I want to buy it at the end of the lease? Now do I care how he got to the payment?
      Also, nobody thinks the National Program is a joke or anything but finding the most bare bones basic model used in the examples is all but impossible. This means the dealer and customer must make payment adjustments to handle the added options that add to the vehicle's cost.

    9. Member Justin14's Avatar
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      07-23-2012 11:28 AM #34
      Just wanted to get a message out to GolfVIDriver :

      tried to pm you, got this:


      GolfVIDriver has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space.

    10. Member Justin14's Avatar
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      07-24-2012 05:22 PM #35
      Went to the dealer today. Here is the data dump:

      The car:
      http://images.cobaltgroup.com/9/7/2/5049045279.jpg



      Went to the dealer today. This is about the '12 2.5 golf manual with no convienence pkg. but does have 17" silver VW "Goal" rims.

      Sticker 20, 325
      "sale" 19,975

      Talking only leasing here.

      This picture is of a worksheet the saleman gave me early in my visit.

      http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e303/wr200/image.jpg

      My trade is my tc w/45k miles. 7400 residual. At first they offered me $10,500. I brought doc of NADA, Blue Book, and Edmunds and averaged them together for an average of $12,100 in good condition. Said this and they raised trade in to 11,000 with $750 "lease money" so my trade would count for $11,750.

      These are the situations they worked out for me. Keep in mind, what I wanted to do was $2k down, 3 yrs 36k miles, maybe buy at end of lease and $200-230/mo.

      They offered these scenarios:

      Deal 1: No money back from trade($4k down), $218/mo 12k/year residual $10,100.
      Deal 2: $0 down, $339/mo, $4000 cash from trade, residual $10, 100. (monthly $ too expensive for me)
      Deal 3: $294/mo, 15k/yr, $2000 down, residual $9800

      Not sure if this info was from one scenario or all 3, but the finance lady told me Money factor was 0.0017 and residual was 48%.

      This is too complex. Need some direction here as to not get taken. I dont think they wanted to give me $12k for my trade and I dont want to put down more than $2k for the lease down payment.

      thanks
      justin
      Last edited by Justin14; 07-24-2012 at 05:35 PM.

    11. 07-25-2012 01:15 AM #36
      I looked up your TC in Manheim. 11k is about right, and maybe even on the side of slightly generous for the end of the model year. $12,000 is too high IMO.

      Residuals are not negotiable in a close-ended lease, which is what dealers offer. As you can see, fiddling with mileage allowance only makes $300 difference in residual after three years. In order to get an appreciably different residual, you will need to change the length of the lease or find an aftermarket bank on your own. Frankly, you do not sound like you are up to the task of finding an aftermarket bank on your own, which is fine. I know what I am doing and honestly would not bother for myself.

      Someone who works for VW will need to chime in here, but I highly doubt that there is $60-$90 per month in rate being held back in a .00017 MF, which is about a market bank rate. I think you're just looking at the wrong car at the wrong time based on your financial goals.

      How much longer do you have until the TC expires? Do you have a buyout option? I honestly would give some consideration to buying out the TC, especially if you live in a tax credit state, and try shopping again during sign and drive season. Or is this a situation where your need for a couple grand in cash is forcing you to make a car transaction?

    12. Member Justin14's Avatar
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      07-25-2012 01:48 AM #37
      Quote Originally Posted by sethgood View Post
      I looked up your TC in Manheim. 11k is about right, and maybe even on the side of slightly generous for the end of the model year. $12,000 is too high IMO.

      * not sure if I mentioned this but they would not come off the msrp for lease negotiation. Wtf?
      19975 down from 20350 but that's it.

      Residuals are not negotiable in a close-ended lease, which is what dealers offer. As you can see, fiddling with mileage allowance only makes $300 difference in residual after three years. In order to get an appreciably different residual, you will need to change the length of the lease or find an aftermarket bank on your own. Frankly, you do not sound like you are up to the task of finding an aftermarket bank on your own, which is fine. I know what I am doing and honestly would not bother for myself.

      Someone who works for VW will need to chime in here, but I highly doubt that there is $60-$90 per month in rate being held back in a .00017 MF, which is about a market bank rate. I think you're just looking at the wrong car at the wrong time based on your financial goals.

      How much longer do you have until the TC expires? Do you have a buyout option? I honestly would give some consideration to buying out the TC, especially if you live in a tax credit state, and try shopping again during sign and drive season. Or is this a situation where your need for a couple grand in cash is forcing you to make a car transaction?

      Does that money factor sound fair?

      As for the tc, I've made my last lease payment on it and I can go to Toyota and sign it over to my name any day now. Or just trade it. Same difference as far as I can gather.

      I really want to find a '11 Golf but there simply aren't any. I could do 0% financing for 5 yrs and put 4k down but even that is a little more than I'd like to pay every month. I don't know what to do. Maybe I'll just drive the tc for a while and sell it on my own for more money. Then wait for a golf to come up for sale.

      Thanks for the continued advice.
      Last edited by Justin14; 07-25-2012 at 01:53 AM.

    13. 07-25-2012 03:13 AM #38
      Quote Originally Posted by Justin14 View Post
      Does that money factor sound fair?

      As for the tc, I've made my last lease payment on it and I can go to Toyota and sign it over to my name any day now. Or just trade it. Same difference as far as I can gather.

      I really want to find a '11 Golf but there simply aren't any. I could do 0% financing for 5 yrs and put 4k down but even that is a little more than I'd like to pay every month. I don't know what to do. Maybe I'll just drive the tc for a while and sell it on my own for more money. Then wait for a golf to come up for sale.

      Thanks for the continued advice.
      Again, I am speaking from the standpoint of non-VW experience, but here's my common-sense thought:

      As to the written sales price, considering the small profit margin in a golf and the dealer throwing you a couple hundred dollars more than maybe they should for the TC, I don't really think you are getting taken; that being said everyone can beat everyone by a few hundred dollars, so there might be a little more room, but you should be thinking hundreds of dollars and maybe less than $10-15 in monthly payment shift.

      To turn a money factor into an equivalent interest rate, multiply by 2400. In this case, 2400 X .00017 approximates to a 4% APR. That's about 1.5% higher than a high tier new car loan from a credit union. Fair? Maybe, but I don't think that's anything special. But...if you plug a really, really low MF into a lease calculator based on everything else, I think you'll find there is only about $5 per month at play here. A dealer would be very unlikely to let you walk over that amount, especially considering that the bank flat fee would pay more to the dealer than the entire interest reserve for the lease, so I conclude that you are not getting taken advantage of from the MF standpoint either, even if the dealer is not passing buy rate along to you, which it sounds like they in fact are.

      So even if the dealer do a total blow-out in every aspect, I still don't think you'd be in the ballpark, and it would be lose-lose.

    14. Member haunted reality's Avatar
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      07-25-2012 11:05 AM #39
      Seems like the lease deals on Passats and Jettas are better, I don't think the Golf leases necessarily great. That's just my uneducated opinion.

    15. Member Justin14's Avatar
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      07-25-2012 12:42 PM #40
      Contacted dealer with my final and fair offer. We'll see.

      Got kinda PISSED because they wouldnt negotiate the price on the car with a lease. Said it had to be MSRP. Logged on to their website today and the price on my car had dropped $500.

      GolVIDRIVER, please pm me back. Cant pm you, your inbox is full.

      Might owe a couple of you a beer after all the advice.

    16. 07-25-2012 05:06 PM #41
      Quote Originally Posted by Justin14 View Post
      Contacted dealer with my final and fair offer. We'll see.

      Got kinda PISSED because they wouldnt negotiate the price on the car with a lease. Said it had to be MSRP. Logged on to their website today and the price on my car had dropped $500.

      GolVIDRIVER, please pm me back. Cant pm you, your inbox is full.

      Might owe a couple of you a beer after all the advice.

      I have been staying out of this, because quite honestly, you got really bad advice early and I didn't want to start a pissing contest.

      The price most definitely IS negotiatiable. If the car is on the lot, in my opinion, the selling price is invoice price minus any and all applicable incentives. So you should be looking to see if there is any VCI lease cash for lessees. I am betting there might be given that we're at the end of the model year. I believe there is approximately $1000 in profit margin between MSRP and Invoice, so them giving you $300-something for a discount is not that great.

      Once you have an agreement on sales price, then negotiate the trade. The trade should be whatever you are comfortable with. Sounds like $11,000 is your trade price. Remember, dealers will leverage the price based on the agreed selling price of the car....if they don't feel like they are making enough money on one, they will jack the other. So make sure you get the most amount for your trade, and the least amount for the new car.

      So good..you nailed down the sale price, the MSRP on the new car, and the trade in price.

      Now......I am going to be crystal clear here, and I apologize if I missed it, but: WHAT IS THE MONEY FACTOR, AND WHAT IS THE RESIDUAL??????!!!!!!

      http://www.ridewithg.com/index.php/2...tes-july-2012/

      Read that.

      When you are done, read this:

      http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f20961d

      Specifically:

      Volkswagen is currently providing a $750 cash incentive on leases of this car through VW Credit.
      That means there is $750 laying on the hood that the dealer isn't telling you about. The price of the Golf is now invoice price, minus the $750 VW Credit's incentive, MINUS any other incentives.

      Current buy rate lease money factor and residual value for a 36-month lease of a 2012 Golf 4-Dr with 12,000 miles per year are .00007 and 50%, respectively for consumers who qualify for its top credit tier.

      The MSRP of a fairly stripped 2012 Golf 4-Dr with an automatic transmission is $20,565 and its dealer invoice price is $19,773. Let's say that you were able to negotiate a selling price of around $19,500. Using these numbers, I estimate that this car would have a zero down, pre-tax monthly payment of around $259.

      Car_man
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      Prices Paid: Buying & Leasing Experiences Forum
      If you still aren't getting straight answers, join that forum and ask what the MF and Residuals are for a 2 door. I imagine they would be pretty close, so you might be able to use those numbers in your calculations.

      Once you have the MF and Residual, its a plug n chug equation. If you don't have those numbers, THERE IS NO WAY OF KNOWING IF YOU ARE GETTING A GOOD DEAL, since you cannot reverse engineer the numbers without them.

      If you simply shopped on payment, as suggested above, any number of details or variables can be messed with to provide that payment...such as mileage allowance, term, etc.

      Now, lets dissect the worksheet....



      Okay, well, I can see $138 that they are getting back under Adjusted Price. Do not pay for those items. What is the MSRP? Or did he put that under selling price?

      Additionally, he is not giving you $12,000, it looks like he is giving you $10,500.

      Whatever they give you for your trade will be a capitalized cost reduction in the form of the difference between your trade payoff and the trade allowance. So if they give you $11,000, and the payoff is really $7400, then your capitalized cost reduction (effectively, a downpayment) will be $3600. Make sure you factor this in.

      Doc fee is about right.

      Tax should be (if you are like Illinois) total sales tax minus the difference in tax due to your trade. To get that, take VW's selling price, minus the trade allowance, and multiply the result by your local tax rate. That should give you the real number.
      Last edited by Maximum_Download; 07-25-2012 at 05:22 PM.
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    17. Member Justin14's Avatar
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      07-25-2012 05:27 PM #42
      Golfivdriver, I'm trying to respond as fast as I can because i don't know if you'll be back on anytime soon.

      MF was on page 1 I think it was 0.0017 residual about $10,100

      edit:

      That worksheet was from early in the game. They later updated the trade to 11,000 then, as long as I leased, 12, 200 in lease credit.

      Today the deal on the table is they give me $2800 check, I make the first payment myself, and the residual was 50% so around $10,100 I'm told. In that scenario I put down $2k and its around $250-260/mo.

      $7400 tc payoff
      $2k down
      $2800 check written to me
      $10,100 residual
      3 yrs 36k miles
      $249-260/mo
      $19300 price ( I think thsts what he based it off of. Didnt tell me)
      Last edited by Justin14; 07-25-2012 at 05:45 PM.

    18. 07-25-2012 05:51 PM #43
      You DO NOT PUT MONEY DOWN ON A LEASE!!!!

      They should be refunding your equity, and all you should be putting down are taxes and fees. No cap cost reduction.
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    19. 07-25-2012 05:55 PM #44
      You know what? Check your PM...I am sending you my phone number,
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    20. 07-25-2012 07:07 PM #45
      Good talking to you today. Hopefully I gave you the info you needed (and proof that you got some bad advice in simply shopping payment, which that one idiot told you to do).

      Don't hesitat to call me once you get all the numbers, and we will crunch them together.

      To give you a good baseline, my 2010 Golf 2 door 5 speed had Bluetooth, CWP, and moonroof. I don't remember exact numbers, but my MSRP was mid $20,XXX, and selling price was $19,XXX. Final lease numbers were $296 a month, 3 years, 15 K a year. MF was something ridiculous like .00001 and MF was 50% for the 3 year 15K a year term, and I capped taxes and fees into the lease. Since IL taxes the full purchase price, and my taxes are nearly 8%, my payment is about $30 a month higher than the rest of the country.

      Because I leased correctly, I had equity in the car at the 1.5 year point, and traded the car in on my GTI.
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      07-27-2012 02:14 AM #46
      I haven't leased before, but I thought you never traded a car in on a lease.

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      07-27-2012 12:05 PM #47
      You DO NOT PUT MONEY DOWN ON A LEASE!!!!



      They should be refunding your equity, and all you should be putting down are taxes and fees. No cap cost reduction.

      I'm thinking... no money down towards the %of the amount to pay?

      Its ok to pay the dealer fees, docs, and registration charges?

      Or just have everything put in the full amount to pay for the lease ?

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    23. 07-27-2012 12:12 PM #48
      Quote Originally Posted by EVANGELIONHD View Post
      I'm thinking... no money down towards the %of the amount to pay?

      Its ok to pay the dealer fees, docs, and registration charges?

      Or just have everything put in the full amount to pay for the lease ?

      Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk
      You can pay your taxes and fees up front. Anything else (a downpayment, or "capitalized cost reduction") is a no no. Leases finance the depreciation ONLY, which is set by the manufacturer. Because of that, you have a defined amount of money to pay off, and putting a downpayment on that simply buys down your payment...it doesn't lower your payoff.
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    24. 07-29-2012 08:26 PM #49
      I appreciate your attempts at helping, but we will disagree forever. I see you complicting something that can be made simple. Step 1, configure the lease with nothing ( no taxes, no fees... Nothing ) out of your pocket. All dealerships can do this in aprox 5 minutes. THEN, and only then, proceed to step 2 which is where you negotiate a trade in value. EASY.

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      07-30-2012 03:43 PM #50
      Quote Originally Posted by gsprobe View Post
      I appreciate your attempts at helping, but we will disagree forever. I see you complicting something that can be made simple. Step 1, configure the lease with nothing ( no taxes, no fees... Nothing ) out of your pocket. All dealerships can do this in aprox 5 minutes. THEN, and only then, proceed to step 2 which is where you negotiate a trade in value. EASY.
      I agree with golfivdriver 1000%. I worked for a dealer for some time and directly with leases and there was alot of incorrect information given unfortunately I was not a member at that time (I love the Noob title) but non the less you are on the right path. My random suggestion minus everything else is wait until the last day of the month. I have seen cars basically given away and GMs bench over so many times trying to catch up one monthly goal the last day that I almost bought new a few times while working there! Good luck and keep up posted.

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