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    Thread: Canadians now richer than Americans

    1. Senior Member AZGolf's Avatar
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      07-18-2012 02:21 PM #1
      As reported by US News & World Report: for the first time ever, the average Canadian is richer than the average American: http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/...than-americans

      Quote Originally Posted by USN&WR
      While Americans might enjoy throwing politically-charged barbs at their neighbors to the north, Canadians now have at least one reason to be smug.

      For the first time in recent history, the average Canadian is richer than the average American, according to a report cited in Toronto's Globe and Mail.

      And not just by a little. Currently, the average Canadian household is more than $40,000 richer than the average American household. The net worth of the average Canadian household in 2011 was $363,202, compared to around $320,000 for Americans.

      If you're thinking the Canadian advantage must be due to exchange rates, think again. The Canadian dollar has actually caught up to the U.S. dollar in recent years.

      "These are not 60-cent dollars, but Canadian dollars more or less at par with the U.S. greenback," Globe and Mail's Michael Adams writes.

      To add insult to injury, not only are Canadians comparatively better-off than Americans, they're also more likely to be employed. The unemployment rate is 7.2 percent—and dropping—in Canada, while the U.S. is stuck with a stubbornly high rate of 8.2 percent.

      ....

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      07-18-2012 04:57 PM #2
      There is no way that is correct.

      The average American household has a net worth of $320k? Really? I find this suspect

    3. Geriatric Member ValveCoverGasket's Avatar
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      07-19-2012 04:02 PM #3
      Quote Originally Posted by bubbagti View Post
      There is no way that is correct.

      The average American household has a net worth of $320k? Really? I find this suspect
      imagine you and bill gates are standing in a room. the average net worth of that room is huge, but you arent any richer.

    4. Member BetterByDesign's Avatar
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      07-19-2012 05:29 PM #4
      It was reported by U.S. News but the statement came from Environics, a research group in Canada.

      It should be noted they are comparing the average Canadian to the average American.

      Proof, some say, that Socialism works; if your goal is to be average. Its also a much easier statement to make when you are a country of 30 million.

      Socialism always looks smart during tough times. When times are prosperous, you don't hear anything from them.
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    5. 07-20-2012 12:14 AM #5
      Quote Originally Posted by BetterByDesign View Post
      Proof, some say, that Socialism works; if your goal is to be average.
      Probably about 50% of Americans wish they were at least average.

      Quote Originally Posted by BetterByDesign View Post
      Socialism always looks smart during tough times. When times are prosperous, you don't hear anything from them.
      Prosperous? You mean like in the 1950's?

    6. Member BetterByDesign's Avatar
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      07-20-2012 09:41 AM #6
      Quote Originally Posted by a_riot View Post
      Probably about 50% of Americans wish they were at least average.
      And probably 50% of Canadians wish they could be more than average, but don't know any better because they are waiting for someone to tell them that it's OK to think like that.

      Quote Originally Posted by a_riot View Post
      Prosperous? You mean like in the 1950's?
      Yeah. 1950.

      Canadian banks barely ranked in the top 50 globally as measured by market capitalization.

      That was no more than 5 years ago.

      Since then they have moved up the rankings considerably; largely by the default of other FI's that once occupied those spots.
      They did nothing to advance that position and will do nothing when they lose those positions.

      That's not prosperity. That's perpetual mediocrity.
      Last edited by BetterByDesign; 07-20-2012 at 09:45 AM.
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      07-20-2012 01:41 PM #7
      people need to stop using the word socialism when they don't know what it means. CA is not a socialist country.

    8. Senior Member dunhamjr's Avatar
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      07-20-2012 01:48 PM #8
      Quote Originally Posted by bubbagti View Post
      There is no way that is correct.

      The average American household has a net worth of $320k? Really? I find this suspect
      i would assume they are adding in peoples houses to the mix.

      which i disagree with.
      UNLESS the house is paid off... or they are AT LEAST, only including the equity amount of the property not the potential market value.

      i have $500k of house... that don't mean i add $500k to my net worth.
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    9. Member BetterByDesign's Avatar
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      07-20-2012 02:06 PM #9
      Quote Originally Posted by petesell View Post
      people need to stop using the word socialism when they don't know what it means. CA is not a socialist country.
      The term is relative and is actually referenced as part of the original report. Unless you are saying socialists dont know they are socialists then I completely understand.

      CA is a socialist commune of 30 million people. Please tell me why you think its NOT.

      http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...than-u-s-.html
      Last edited by BetterByDesign; 07-20-2012 at 02:11 PM.
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    10. 07-20-2012 09:56 PM #10
      Quote Originally Posted by BetterByDesign View Post
      The term is relative and is actually referenced as part of the original report. Unless you are saying socialists dont know they are socialists then I completely understand.

      CA is a socialist commune of 30 million people. Please tell me why you think its NOT.
      Canadians generally don't think of themselves as socialists. Canadians are far more practical than Americans and tend not to get all wrapped up in right/left labels, and political squabbles, although its getting more like the US every day. They realize that public ownership is useful for some things, while the "free market" is better for others. But I don't see how socialism equates to mediocrity at all. There's certainly no shortage of mediocrity in the US, in fact an argument can be made that the free market has to cater to the lowest common denominator by definition, which leads to a result worse than mediocrity.

    11. Member BetterByDesign's Avatar
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      07-21-2012 04:03 PM #11
      Quote Originally Posted by a_riot View Post
      Canadians generally don't think of themselves as socialists. .
      Of course. They think of themselves as Canadian

      Canadians are far more practical than Americans and tend not to get all wrapped up in right/left labels, and political squabbles, although its getting more like the US every day
      Agreed.

      They realize that public ownership is useful for some things, while the "free market" is better for others.
      Well yes...I've always thought so. Not sure if "realization" implies that is something only Canada can deduce.
      Deliver my mail? Issue parking permits and tags? Enjoy!

      But I don't see how socialism equates to mediocrity at all. There's certainly no shortage of mediocrity in the US,
      Can't help you here. I agree there is no shortage of mediocrity in the U.S. Guess what... there is no shortage of ANYTHING in the U.S. Same can't be said under socialism.


      in fact an argument can be made that the free market has to cater to the lowest common denominator by definition, which leads to a result worse than mediocrity.
      What could be worse than mediocrity? Competition? That's not an arguement. That is the most basic tenet of socialism.
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      07-21-2012 05:55 PM #12
      This is from ABC News a month ago:

      http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/business...wn-35-percent/

      Median household net worth declined 35 percent between 2005 and 2010 to $66,740, the Census Bureau reported on Monday.

      The federal agency reported median net worth dropped to $66,740 from $102,844 in constant dollars in that period, which included the last recession.

      However, excluding home equity, median household net worth actually increased to $15,000 from $13,859 between 2009 and 2010.

    13. 07-21-2012 09:45 PM #13
      Quote Originally Posted by GeoffD View Post
      However, excluding home equity, median household net worth actually increased to $15,000 from $13,859 between 2009 and 2010.
      Other than that Mrs Lincoln, how was the play?
      Last edited by a_riot; 07-21-2012 at 10:13 PM.

    14. 07-21-2012 09:57 PM #14
      Quote Originally Posted by BetterByDesign View Post
      What could be worse than mediocrity? Competition? That's not an arguement. That is the most basic tenet of socialism.
      Socialism means many different things, so no one really knows what you mean when you use that term. Mediocrity is not a basic tenet of socialism, in fact socialism was designed to achieve a utopian society so I'm not sure what you are on about there. I have found that capitalist societies tend to be the most mediocre, generally because any effort is only expended on the basis of how much profit can be derived from it, not to achieve a great thing for its own sake. This leads to a situation where everything tends to be "just good enough to sell" rather than better than necessary.

    15. 07-22-2012 12:35 AM #15
      Before you think Canada is better, have you heard of RIMM? They drive American cars and fly American airplanes.
      We got a large number of immigrants so the statistics above don't tell the whole story.

    16. 07-22-2012 12:38 AM #16
      Quote Originally Posted by a_riot View Post
      Socialism means many different things, so no one really knows what you mean when you use that term. Mediocrity is not a basic tenet of socialism, in fact socialism was designed to achieve a utopian society so I'm not sure what you are on about there. I have found that capitalist societies tend to be the most mediocre, generally because any effort is only expended on the basis of how much profit can be derived from it, not to achieve a great thing for its own sake. This leads to a situation where everything tends to be "just good enough to sell" rather than better than necessary.
      "in fact socialism was designed to achieve a utopian society"

      good luck with that.

      This is capitalism: /\/\/\/\/\

      This is socialism: ----------

    17. Member BetterByDesign's Avatar
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      07-22-2012 12:59 AM #17
      Quote Originally Posted by a_riot View Post
      Socialism means many different things, so no one really knows what you mean when you use that term.
      Let's not revert to that again.

      Yeah, socialism means many different things, and different things to different people etc. but the article is discussing the average Canadian and the average American. So Canada compared to the U.S. is socialist but Canada compared to oh lets just say Sweden is well...not so socialist?

      Just so that I get a better idea of where you are coming from, with all due respect, in your opinion what are some differences between Canada and the U.S.?

      Mediocrity is not a basic tenet of socialism, in fact socialism was designed to achieve a utopian society so I'm not sure what you are on about there.
      Of course not, and that's not what I said. Mediocrity is a by product of socialism. I was referring to what I think you eluded to as competition or your apparent distaste for it as a tenet of socialism. Because competition creates winners and losers and that is unfair because we are all winners and "we are in this all together."

      Sound familiar?


      I have found that capitalist societies tend to be the most mediocre, generally because any effort is only expended on the basis of how much profit can be derived from it, not to achieve a great thing for its own sake. This leads to a situation where everything tends to be "just good enough to sell" rather than better than necessary.
      Let me get this straight. You are saying the intent behind achieving great things is more important than the great thing itself and without it, that leads to mediocrity, not the other way around?

      Acheiving a great thing for its own sake sounds to me like an artist or Bernie Madoff. So starving artists are dynamic but artists that make a nice living are mediocre a holes?

      What happens when a piece of art work sells for millions of dollars in Canada? Do people shake their heads at such gluttony and excess? Does the Canadian government impose hefty taxes on the sale of that million dollar piece of art and upon the artist?
      Last edited by BetterByDesign; 07-22-2012 at 01:11 AM.
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    18. Senior Member AZGolf's Avatar
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      07-22-2012 10:29 AM #18
      Quote Originally Posted by a_riot View Post
      This leads to a situation where everything tends to be "just good enough to sell" rather than better than necessary.
      Actually that describes every interaction I've had with government. That's why the phrase "it's good enough for government work" exists; because government services tend to be all about providing the minimum level of service. When was the last time you took a survey for a government service you received? I never have. No government agency cares if you are satisfied or not. How about called a 1-800 customer service number when you're having trouble with a government service? Nope, I've still never been able to do that either. Sadly, government services are monopolies and since they are the only game in town you have to accept what they're giving because there is no alternative. Monopolies lead to bad service, plain and simple. You would never accept monopolies in private business so why do you think it's a good thing when politicians (who are legendary for being corrupt) create monopolies of public services?

    19. 07-22-2012 01:35 PM #19
      Quote Originally Posted by AZGolf View Post
      Actually that describes every interaction I've had with government. That's why the phrase "it's good enough for government work" exists; because government services tend to be all about providing the minimum level of service. When was the last time you took a survey for a government service you received? I never have. No government agency cares if you are satisfied or not. How about called a 1-800 customer service number when you're having trouble with a government service? Nope, I've still never been able to do that either. Sadly, government services are monopolies and since they are the only game in town you have to accept what they're giving because there is no alternative. Monopolies lead to bad service, plain and simple. You would never accept monopolies in private business so why do you think it's a good thing when politicians (who are legendary for being corrupt) create monopolies of public services?
      A monopoly is the ultimate end goal for every private business since their goal is to increase market share. Most fortune 500 companies actively strive to create a monopoly by putting all other contenders out of business, locking customers in to their product using incompatible technology, etc. I don't see much difference between the service provided by Exxon, Verizon, Halliburton, Comcast, Google, Microsoft, Apple, and the gov't other than the fact that I can't vote for their board members.

      In fact, companies donate millions to politicians for the purpose of getting legislation passed to further entrench their mono/duopolies. I've always wondered why people think the fortune 500 is some bastion of the "free market" that collectively uphold the principles behind the constitution, but then also think the gov't is so corrupt, when its more or less a rotating door between fortune 500 board members, and gov't executive positions. Are these people corrupt while working in gov't and then somehow transform into ethical people when a fortune 500 company hires them? I don't think so...

      The gov't isn't a private enterprise and shouldn't be run like one. If it were, we wouldn't have the internet, since that was developed without the need for profit by the gov't (DARPA). If it were developed by private enterprise, we would instead have 10 incompatible internets, each supported by a different private enterprise using different technology, unable to pass data between them, etc. All the tech created to build the internet was done on the taxpayers dime. Why didn't private enterprise build it? Well, likely because the profit from it wouldn't show up for many years/decades, and their shareholders weren't going to tolerate that length of time before their ROI. Leaving everything up to private enterprise would be a big mistake in my opinion.

      EDIT: It appears that you may be mistaken regarding the origin of the phrase "it's good enough for government work".

      "Has this phrase always meant the lowest passing quality? The answer is no.

      In a commentary by retired Maj. Gen. Arthur Rooney, he states, "The phrase, 'It's good enough for government work' originated in World War II. It was during a time when the likes of 'Rosie the Riveter' were made famous as we worked hard to provide our allies and our very own soldiers the ships, planes and weapons to fight and win the war against the Axis powers."

      When the phrase was used during this period in time, it meant it was good enough to pass very stringent standards, Rooney said. It also meant it was good enough to be used by your son, father or loved one in our country's fight against the enemy."
      Last edited by a_riot; 07-22-2012 at 02:21 PM.

    20. 07-22-2012 01:57 PM #20
      The gov't isn't a private enterprise and shouldn't be run like one. If it were, we wouldn't have the internet, since that was developed without the need for profit by the gov't (DARPA). If it were developed by private enterprise, we would instead have 10 incompatible internets, each supported by a different private enterprise using different technology, unable to pass data between them, etc.
      I guess you haven't heard of cell phone standards. All PC's are compatible. All DVD players are compatible. All MP3's files are compatible. TVs channels are pretty compatible. All TV's are "compatible". Home plumbings are compatible. I mean I could go on and on.
      All industries have standards. Have you heard of IEEE? I mean there are thousands of them. They get together and work it out.
      Government is a double edge sword. Private entities at least you can put it out of business. Government will be around forever.

      But having said all that, the best system is a combination of two working together.

    21. 07-22-2012 03:23 PM #21
      Quote Originally Posted by livingVoice View Post
      I guess you haven't heard of cell phone standards.
      I guess you haven't heard of GSM and CDMA.

      Quote Originally Posted by livingVoice View Post
      All PC's are compatible.
      That's laughable.

      Quote Originally Posted by livingVoice View Post
      All DVD players are compatible.
      Ever heard of HDDVD and Blu-ray, or regional DVDs?

      Quote Originally Posted by livingVoice View Post
      All MP3's files are compatible. TVs channels are pretty compatible. All TV's are "compatible". Home plumbings are compatible. I mean I could go on and on.
      All of these have incompatibilities as well. There isn't a such thing as "pretty compatible", it either is or isn't. Try watching digital TV signals on an analog TV, or PAL on a NTSC TV. I don't think you know much about audio/video formats and technologies.

      Home plumbing is compatible? I wonder why I spent all that time and money replacing all the steel pipes with copper in my house then? Why didn't I just replace the broken steel pipes with copper and mix the two?

      Quote Originally Posted by livingVoice View Post
      All industries have standards. Have you heard of IEEE?
      You are making the common mistake that non engineering folks make thinking that having a "standard" means there is only one. And yes I've heard of IEEE, I have to write software to standards set by IEEE every day.

    22. 07-22-2012 05:32 PM #22
      Quote Originally Posted by a_riot View Post
      I guess you haven't heard of GSM and CDMA.



      That's laughable.



      Ever heard of HDDVD and Blu-ray, or regional DVDs?



      All of these have incompatibilities as well. There isn't a such thing as "pretty compatible", it either is or isn't. Try watching digital TV signals on an analog TV, or PAL on a NTSC TV. I don't think you know much about audio/video formats and technologies.

      Home plumbing is compatible? I wonder why I spent all that time and money replacing all the steel pipes with copper in my house then? Why didn't I just replace the broken steel pipes with copper and mix the two?



      You are making the common mistake that non engineering folks make thinking that having a "standard" means there is only one. And yes I've heard of IEEE, I have to write software to standards set by IEEE every day.
      You do realize that not all "networks" are compatible right? By the way, the word "internet" is so general that it could mean anything.
      You do realize that NOTHING is absolute right? The "internet" by absolute is not "compatible".

      The basis of internet was "created" by the government but you do realize that afterward, millions of things went into it by various private entities to make it "compatible" ?

      Do you realized by the "internet" by itself has all sort of "standards" right? You can't just hook up an "internet" here and connect to any "internet" there and expect them to work right? A 1G internet cannot be hooked up to a 10G internet. They are not all compatible, understand?

      There are all sorts of works done by the private industry (such as Cisco, Intel, ....) to make the "internet" workable the way it is right now.

      Like I said in my previous posts, people like you are good at making argument for argument sake without adding any values to the subject matter.

      So what is your point again?

    23. Member BetterByDesign's Avatar
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      07-22-2012 05:52 PM #23
      Quote Originally Posted by a_riot View Post
      A monopoly is the ultimate end goal for every private business since their goal is to increase market share. Most fortune 500 companies actively strive to create a monopoly by putting all other contenders out of business, locking customers in to their product using incompatible technology, etc. I don't see much difference between the service provided by Exxon, Verizon, Halliburton, Comcast, Google, Microsoft, Apple, and the gov't other than the fact that I can't vote for their board members.

      In fact, companies donate millions to politicians for the purpose of getting legislation passed to further entrench their mono/duopolies. I've always wondered why people think the fortune 500 is some bastion of the "free market" that collectively uphold the principles behind the constitution, but then also think the gov't is so corrupt, when its more or less a rotating door between fortune 500 board members, and gov't executive positions. Are these people corrupt while working in gov't and then somehow transform into ethical people when a fortune 500 company hires them? I don't think so...
      In reality this is what good government does and what actually happens:

      http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/news/...Determ11-1.pdf
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    24. Member BetterByDesign's Avatar
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      07-22-2012 06:51 PM #24
      Quote Originally Posted by AZGolf View Post
      Actually that describes every interaction I've had with government. That's why the phrase "it's good enough for government work" exists
      Thank for addressing this. Never really understood what he was getting at regarding this "just good enough" argument applied to non government.

      Then again... he is saying there is no difference in service from gov't than service from Google, MS and Apple?

      I dont think we are even talking about socialism and Canada anymore. This sounds like the part where everyone lines up for government to give out loaves of bread and there is waiting list the receive your car which comes in two colors: black or black.
      Last edited by BetterByDesign; 07-22-2012 at 06:55 PM.
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    25. 07-23-2012 02:06 PM #25
      Quote Originally Posted by livingVoice View Post
      You do realize that not all "networks" are compatible right? By the way, the word "internet" is so general that it could mean anything.
      You do realize that NOTHING is absolute right? The "internet" by absolute is not "compatible".
      I write networking software programs for a living so I think I understand "networks" far better than most. Thanks for the networking tips though, I'll keep your suggestions in mind next time I am writing a comm module.

      Quote Originally Posted by livingVoice View Post
      The basis of internet was "created" by the government but you do realize that afterward, millions of things went into it by various private entities to make it "compatible" ?
      I really don't know what you are referring to. "Millions of things"? Could you be more vague?

      Quote Originally Posted by livingVoice View Post
      Do you realized by the "internet" by itself has all sort of "standards" right? You can't just hook up an "internet" here and connect to any "internet" there and expect them to work right? A 1G internet cannot be hooked up to a 10G internet. They are not all compatible, understand?
      I don't think you know much about networking or how the internet works. There is no "1G internet". If you are referring to gigabit networks, 10G was designed to be backwards compatible with 1G so you are simply wrong about that. I would stick to topics you know something about.

      Quote Originally Posted by livingVoice View Post
      Like I said in my previous posts, people like you are good at making argument for argument sake without adding any values to the subject matter.
      Hello kettle, meet pot.

      Quote Originally Posted by livingVoice View Post
      So what is your point again?
      You've made me forget now.

    26. 07-25-2012 01:40 PM #26
      Quote Originally Posted by a_riot View Post


      You've made me forget now.
      Since you're too stupid to remember what you said, let me remind you. You said without the government, the "internet" would have no standard whatever that means. I don't think you know what you talked about either. But I already told you, the private industries together with the like of Cisco ... since then have develop GbE (1G remember), 10G, and now 40G so that everything is working and being compatible. But that is just the tip of the iceberg. There are literally millions of things (I understand your brain can't handle things like this) you can't even begin to describe that are being done by the private industry to the keep the "internet" from breaking apart.

      Since you have no clue what a 1G network is, here is a quick cliff note. It runs at 1.25GHz rate but the real data rate is 1G. For someone who writes software for a living, you're quite dumb.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigabit_Ethernet

      I guess the only thing you can do ow is attacking my semantics Mr. Al Gore.
      Last edited by livingVoice; 07-25-2012 at 01:44 PM.

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      07-26-2012 02:50 AM #27
      Quote Originally Posted by livingVoice View Post
      Since you're too stupid to remember what you said, let me remind you. You said without the government, the "internet" would have no standard whatever that means. I don't think you know what you talked about either. But I already told you, the private industries together with the like of Cisco ... since then have develop GbE (1G remember), 10G, and now 40G so that everything is working and being compatible. But that is just the tip of the iceberg. There are literally millions of things (I understand your brain can't handle things like this) you can't even begin to describe that are being done by the private industry to the keep the "internet" from breaking apart.

      Since you have no clue what a 1G network is, here is a quick cliff note. It runs at 1.25GHz rate but the real data rate is 1G. For someone who writes software for a living, you're quite dumb.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigabit_Ethernet

      I guess the only thing you can do ow is attacking my semantics Mr. Al Gore.
      Cat 6 runs at 250MHz (actual line frequency) and transfers at 1 Gigabit/s (125 MB/s).

    28. 07-26-2012 11:02 AM #28
      Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tickles View Post
      Cat 6 runs at 250MHz (actual line frequency) and transfers at 1 Gigabit/s (125 MB/s).
      I was going to say....we aren't at 1.25GHz quite yet.

    29. Member GeoffD's Avatar
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      07-26-2012 12:16 PM #29
      Quote Originally Posted by livingVoice View Post
      Since you're too stupid to remember what you said, let me remind you. You said without the government, the "internet" would have no standard whatever that means. I don't think you know what you talked about either. But I already told you, the private industries together with the like of Cisco ... since then have develop GbE (1G remember), 10G, and now 40G so that everything is working and being compatible. But that is just the tip of the iceberg. There are literally millions of things (I understand your brain can't handle things like this) you can't even begin to describe that are being done by the private industry to the keep the "internet" from breaking apart.

      Since you have no clue what a 1G network is, here is a quick cliff note. It runs at 1.25GHz rate but the real data rate is 1G. For someone who writes software for a living, you're quite dumb.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigabit_Ethernet

      I guess the only thing you can do ow is attacking my semantics Mr. Al Gore.
      Meh. A point-to-point gigabit link is not a network.

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      07-26-2012 12:22 PM #30
      Quote Originally Posted by a_riot View Post
      I was going to say....we aren't at 1.25GHz quite yet.
      ...and we never will be with shielded twisted pair. There is too much capacitance in the cable to clock it that high for more than a couple of feet. To get higher data rates, you run parallel twisted pairs and/or play modulation games where you're getting multiple pieces of information per clock cycle. I work with the cable DOCSIS stuff that uses QAM. Gigabit ethernet uses slightly different modulation technology that works better on twisted pair. Anything at those data rates has a bunch of overhead to do forward error correction. There are tons of bit errors at the physical layer and the protocol can recover from some amount of them.

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      07-26-2012 12:36 PM #31
      Quote Originally Posted by GeoffD View Post
      ...and we never will be with shielded twisted pair. There is too much capacitance in the cable to clock it that high for more than a couple of feet. To get higher data rates, you run parallel twisted pairs and/or play modulation games where you're getting multiple pieces of information per clock cycle. I work with the cable DOCSIS stuff that uses QAM. Gigabit ethernet uses slightly different modulation technology that works better on twisted pair. Anything at those data rates has a bunch of overhead to do forward error correction. There are tons of bit errors at the physical layer and the protocol can recover from some amount of them.
      I actually understood that.
      Quote Originally Posted by winstonsmith84 View Post
      Tax? I don't mind paying state sales tax. Every time a see a pothole, a school that is falling down or a canceled essential state program, I remind myself why.
      Quote Originally Posted by Tornado2dr View Post
      535 members of congress plus 1 pres screwing us all the time...that's dirty pirate hooker level gang rape.

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