Nissan Leaf owners claim AZ desert heat saps batteries

[Mazda 3s]

PHOENIX (CBS5) -
Some Nissan Leaf car owners are tempted to pull the plug after a dramatic drop in their driving range. They believe Arizona's scorching heat is baking the batteries of their electric cars.

Just one year ago, drivers in the desert could count on a full charge to get them around town. But now they say the car they love is losing power, and they are losing patience.

"I absolutely love this car," said Leaf owner, Scott Yarosh.

"This car is just built rock solid," adds fellow Leaf owner, Mason Convey.

These owners have high praise for the quiet and comfy Nissan Leaf. The all-electric ride not only saves the environment, it also saves money.

"We're paying 2 cents a mile to drive this car," Convey estimates.

"Not stopping at a gas station is amazing," said Yarosh.

The Nissan Leaf made its debut just last year. There are 13,000 of them on the road.

Of the 400 cars in Arizona, the excitement of Yarosh and Convey about their new Leafs is starting to wilt. They said they are extremely frustrated and disappointed.

"When I first purchased the vehicle, I could drive to and from work on a single charge, approximately 90 miles round trip," Yarosh said.

And now, he says, "I can drive approximately 44 miles on this without having to stop and charge."

The two owners are not alone. They belong to a community of Arizona owners with the same grief about the Leaf. They believe Arizona's extremely high heat might be cooking the car's battery, which has no cooling system.

With their batteries fully charged, they've seen at least two of the 12 lights on their cars' battery capacity gauge go out. Yarosh has lost three.

The owners' estimate their reduced battery capacity is at least 30 percent, even though they claim they are driving in strict accordance with Nissan's owner's manual. They also showed CBS 5 News their dealership service records, which show high marks for properly driving and charging their Nissan Leafs.

According to Nissan, that 30 percent battery capacity loss shouldn't happen until after about seven years on the road.

Yet Yarosh and Convey said every time they take their cars in to a Nissan service department, they are told it's "normal."

CBS 5 News spoke with Mark Perry, the director of product planning for Nissan. In a YouTube video regarding the Nissan Leaf battery he said, "Heat is definitely not a friend of batteries, but I'm talking severe 130, 140 degrees."

Over the phone, Perry said the company does not consider the issue a problem, yet he said they are investigating five complaints about the rapid loss of battery capacity, and all of them are in Arizona.

"We want to learn more about what's going on, but it's something we've just been made aware of, and we don't have any conclusions yet," Perry said.

Perry says owners with similar complaints shouldn't leave the dealership before making sure the dealership calls the region's technical service manager.

In the meantime, Convey said he hopes Nissan will acknowledge their concerns and provide a quick remedy, or he fears, "soon, I'm left with a very expensive paperweight in the garage."

Copyright 2012 KPHO CBS 5 (Meredith Corporation). All rights reserved.

http://www.kpho.com/story/19050732/2...saps-batteries

[spongebob_squarepants]

I live in the AZ desert. Yes, heat kills batteries. I thought that was common knowledge. I don't think extremely hot climates are good places to rely on an electric-only vehicle as your main transportation.

Not to mention charging stations in the Phoenix area are few and far between.

[feels_road]

Didn't people predict this, because unlike most EVs, the Leaf's battery doesn't have thermal management?

[Inspector Detector]

Yes it does. I was just reading a road test on the new Focus electric in Automobile Magazine and I believe they mentioned the same thing too when it comes to heat. From what I saw in the Focus test, there's no major advantages compared to the Leaf. Although charging time is down to around 4 hours or a lot shorter than the Leaf's. The problem is the Focus will cost around $4,000 more than the Leaf. It's cruising range of 75 to 100 miles is no advance in battery technology either.

[DJMRDARK]

Didn't people predict this, because unlike most EVs, the Leaf's battery doesn't have thermal management?

This is one of the things the Leaf lovers/Volt haters don't get or appreciate about the Volt. The Volt's battery is climate controlled. Yes it adds costs but also protects range and life of the battery pack.

Score another one for the Volt.

[Egz]

Yes it does. I was just reading a road test on the new Focus electric in Automobile Magazine and I believe they mentioned the same thing too when it comes to heat. From what I saw in the Focus test, there's no major advantages compared to the Leaf. Although charging time is down to around 4 hours or a lot shorter than the Leaf's. The problem is the Focus will cost around $4,000 more than the Leaf. It's cruising range of 75 to 100 miles is no advance in battery technology either.

Better looking car with thermal protected battery not worth 4k more?

Anyways, no sympathy for AZ Leaf owners.

[Mike!]

Didn't people predict this, because unlike most EVs, the Leaf's battery doesn't have thermal management?

Pretty much.

[leaftye]

Might not some of the lost range be due to running the a/c on max because it's hot as hell out there?

[uncleho]

Pretty much.

I thought it uses fans to manage air flow through the battery pack? While not as ideal as the Volt, its better than nothing.

Furthermore... AZ heat is no hotter than what it gets in several places in other southern states, right?

[Mazda 3s]

Elon Musk called Nissan out on this two years ago

http://earth2tech.com/2010/08/05/tes...-is-primitive/

[Frostybunny]

think of the range these cars would have if they ran in the ignorance of their owners

heat reduces battery life, its a simple concept

as far as I'm concerned, these cars work as intended and if you live there and want an electric car then get a volt

[Turbio!]

Might not some of the lost range be due to running the a/c on max because it's hot as hell out there?

The issue isn't range, it's actually losing the battery's ability to store a charge.

[Turbio!]

I thought it uses fans to manage air flow through the battery pack? While not as ideal as the Volt, its better than nothing.

Furthermore... AZ heat is no hotter than what it gets in several places in other southern states, right?

My guess is the issue is not just ambient air temps, but ground-level temperature in the sea of asphalt that is the Phoenix urban heat island. If the air temperature is 110-115, then the temperature at the asphalt is probably closer to 140 or 150, because the sun is so blasted intense.

[curvedinfinity]

Elon Musk called Nissan out on this two years ago

http://earth2tech.com/2010/08/05/tes...-is-primitive/

Bingo. The same PR guy who is blaming the "handful" of customers who are reporting problems is the PR guy who said the Leaf didn't need active thermal management for their battery in the US market, even though Phoenix was one of the launch markets and Nissan has a proving ground practically next door.

The warranty for the Leaf's battery does not cover loss of capacity, only voltage, so these customers are SOL since Nissan is not going the good faith route. Classic modern Nissan, not supporting customers and cheaping out on products.

[spongebob_squarepants]

I think if you live in a brutally hot climate and you buy a Leaf, then you didn't do your homework. Or at least you don't understand that heat kills batteries ability to store a charge.

So these guys whining about their $35k paperweight...

[curvedinfinity]

I think if you live in a brutally hot climate and you buy a Leaf, then you didn't do your homework. Or at least you don't understand that heat kills batteries ability to store a charge.

So these guys whining about their $35k paperweight...

Most of the other electric vehicles have cooling that prevents this (Volt & Tesla for instance). Nissan claimed they didn't need it on the Leaf.

[Thrasher]

Battery cooling doesn't help much when the car isn't being driven... that's hugely taxing on the batteries out here too. Just seems odd that of all the Leaf customers we have here, I've actually only heard this complaint twice. I wonder what the other dozen people are doing differently...

[uncleho]

Over many Volt vs Leaf threads the past 3-4 years I have tried to justify the liquid cooling's added cost. I've chalked up Nissan's rapid development of the Leaf to the lack of features like this.

Honestly I hope these failures are not due to thermal mgt, because if it is... it will do little to help the other aspect that I've harped upon (i.e. Every Mfr should do their best in terms of product and roll-out/launch PR because EVs and their ilk are at a very delicate stage in their infancy today to risk public backlash.). If one or two MFRs' screws up badly enough that can delay the push towards electrification. It could be like how Detroit put such a sour taste in the mouths of American consumers with diesels so many years ago that it still lingers.

If it is a thermal mgt issue then god save them, because retrofitting such a system into a system not intended for it doesn't seem plausible. This would be a huge black eye. I remember how antiEV Carlos G was in public until a certain point... then he was all about EV. And then... they announce the Leaf. Ive always wondered if he rushed his underlings after he felt pressure from GM and other CEOs banter about electrification back then. Big corporations have this innate problem with not being able to say NO to the big bosses... even though the underlings know it is wrong.

[curvedinfinity]

Battery cooling doesn't help much when the car isn't being driven... that's hugely taxing on the batteries out here too. Just seems odd that of all the Leaf customers we have here, I've actually only heard this complaint twice. I wonder what the other dozen people are doing differently...

The Volt will cool the battery when needed while the car isn't running.

http://www.chevroletvoltage.com/inde...1&id=6704#6711

[Mike!]

I thought it uses fans to manage air flow through the battery pack? While not as ideal as the Volt, its better than nothing.

Furthermore... AZ heat is no hotter than what it gets in several places in other southern states, right?

Fans aren't really a 'cooling' system though, depending on how technical you get. There's no form of 'coolant' that I recall. Even 'air-cooled' combustion engines actually used oil as the 'coolant' medium. The basic prediction was that the fan system wouldn't be up to snuff, accordingly.

AZ is an arid climate, wheras the southern (southeastern) states are lower in absolute temperature, but have high humidity. I'm not sure how arid heat affects the batteries relative to humid heat.

[uncleho]

Fans aren't really a 'cooling' system though, depending on how technical you get. There's no form of 'coolant' that I recall. Even 'air-cooled' combustion engines actually used oil as the 'coolant' medium. The basic prediction was that the fan system wouldn't be up to snuff, accordingly.

AZ is an arid climate, wheras the southern (southeastern) states are lower in absolute temperature, but have high humidity. I'm not sure how arid heat affects the batteries relative to humid heat.

Oh, understood. Blowing air isn't ideal, but that they even put it in shows they recognized some need (i.e. that is what the lawyers will use against Nissan if it comes to that). A sealed container baking in the heat is going to build up more heat than its environment even if the environment is already hot.

I doubt humidity is meaningful, but I know it can get hot in places like FL, GA, LA, too. Hell it was 105 in Louisville without the humidity just a week or two ago. And all metro areas have seas of asphalt, too. Dallas is like Africa hot!

[2.0T_Convert]

Battery cooling doesn't help much when the car isn't being driven... that's hugely taxing on the batteries out here too. Just seems odd that of all the Leaf customers we have here, I've actually only heard this complaint twice. I wonder what the other dozen people are doing differently...

I'll bet these complaining owners are the ones who will leave the car exposed in the direct sun for extended periods of time sitting over hot asphalt.



With no battery cooling system I'm sure the air trapped inside a sitting Leaf will rise above the outside air temps. Add to that the battery sitting inches above the hot ground.

[fknlo]

I'll bet these complaining owners are the ones who will leave the car exposed in the direct sun for extended periods of time sitting over hot asphalt.

What kind of insane person would do such a thing to their car?

[Techun]

Fans aren't really a 'cooling' system though, depending on how technical you get. There's no form of 'coolant' that I recall. Even 'air-cooled' combustion engines actually used oil as the 'coolant' medium. The basic prediction was that the fan system wouldn't be up to snuff, accordingly.

AZ is an arid climate, wheras the southern (southeastern) states are lower in absolute temperature, but have high humidity. I'm not sure how arid heat affects the batteries relative to humid heat.

the air is the liquid coolant in that case. It's not as good as water.

[BagelConsultant]

As boring as the car itself looks, it seems that the Coda Sedan blows the Leaf away on range and battery capacity - 50% more battery and a rated range of up to 150 miles per charge. It's just a shame that such an advanced powertrain is built in to such a sh1tbox of a sedan.

"Tech Tidbit: While Nissan uses a passively cooled battery pack in the Leaf, Coda uses an active, closed-loop, air-cooled system that incorporates an A/C unit, evaporator and heat exchanger for thermal management in its sedan. The system was tested in extreme conditions including Death Valley, and Coda says it showed that the car can operate without being plugged in at temperatures as low as -20 Celsius.


Read more: 2012 Coda Sedan Test Drive - Popular Mechanics "

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...dan-test-drive

[Terandyne]

I'll bet these complaining owners are the ones who will leave the car exposed in the direct sun for extended periods of time sitting over hot asphalt.

What kind of insane person would do such a thing to their car?

They live in Phoenix. Seems like that would be a rather normal occurrence to leave a car out in the sun.

and this about the warranty...

Warranty
The Leaf's battery warranty is for eight years or 160,000 kilometres (100,000 mi). The warranty covers defects in materials and workmanship, but does not cover gradual loss of battery capacity, nor does it cover damage or failure resulting from not following the preventive actions recommended in the Leaf Owner's Manual for the lithium-ion battery, such as exposing the car to ambient temperatures above 120 °F (49 °C) for over 24 hours, or storing the Leaf in temperatures below −13 °F (−25 °C) for over 7 days.

[Bonanza]

This issue is probably another one of the main reasons people avoid electric cars. With every charge the battery has less capacity the time before. Happens with laptops, cell phones, anything. Heat simply exasperates the problem.

[Wheelstand]

Packaging concerns outweighed engineering concerns in the development, or so it appears.

Guess they didn't want a central tunnel like the Volt has.

And Nissan dismisses concerns about thermal management (or lack of)

And heat accumulating in the pack is just distributed internally in the pack with a single fan and merely radiates out thru the pack's shell. Sounds woefully inadequate in the desert.

First, Nissan overpromised on the realistic range by consistently quoting a number tied to the most optimistic benchmark, the LA4 cycle. Drivers who stick to stop-and-go traffic on city streets in temperate climates may indeed consistently see 100 miles of range, but most drivers will see significantly less in a mix of city and highway driving. Driving in California, the country’s top market for electric vehicles, involves a lot of time on highways where the 65 mph speed limit is rarely observed. The LA4 cycle Nissan quotes mostly stay below 30 mph with one two-minute “sprint” at 55 mph every 22-minute cycle.

It also appears Nissan has cut corners on the most critical aspect of electric vehicle technology — the battery pack. The key engineering trade-off Nissan has made is opting not to include active thermal management, where the temperature of the pack is controlled by an HVAC system similar to what cools the passenger cabin on a hot day. Instead, Nissan has opted to use only an internal fan that circulates the air within the sealed pack to evenly distribute the heat, which escapes by passive radiation through the pack’s external case.


The Nissan Leaf has a passively cooled 24-kilowatt-hour battery pack located under the floorboard.

Thermal management in lithium-ion battery packs is critical to the long-term performance and quality of the battery. The manganese oxide pack is sensitive to high temperature and the primary consequence is that the pack will degrade more rapidly than one with active thermal management. This problem will be worse in hotter climates such as Phoenix, which Nissan has selected as one of its launch cities.

Mark Perry, Nissan’s director of product planning for the United States, dismissed the importance of active thermal management.

“We don’t need thermal management for the U.S., but we are looking at the technology for Dubai and other locations like that…. We’ve gone on the record saying that the pack has a 70 to 80 percent capacity after 10 years,” he told Wired.com. Pressed on whether that is realistic for a passively cooled manganese oxide pack, Perry said yes.

“If it wasn’t our pack and it wasn’t our engineers and we weren’t working on it for 17 years … we wouldn’t make the statement if we weren’t confident in our ability to do so,” he said.

But we heard a different story from Paul Hawson, a Nissan product planner who worked on the Leaf, when the automaker brought the Leaf to the Wired offices in November. Asked why Nissan chose not to use active thermal management, Hawson explained the engineers experimented with it but found it required a central tunnel on top of the pack. That would intrude on cabin space, splitting the rear bench into two seats with a hump in the middle. Nissan, he said, decided to use only passive cooling to preserve passenger space.

[audifans]

Volt approached things differently and made life for the battery a lot less harsh.



And it seems that Nissan owners have another option to counter battery problems: Leasing.

General Motors has taken a different approach with the battery in the Chevrolet Volt. Although it uses a similar lithium manganese chemistry, GM opted to use an active liquid cooling system. Doing so ensures optimal power and lifespan, said Tony Posawatz, vehicle line director for the Volt.

“Thermal management [with lithium manganese batteries] has bookend issues to manage: minimized power at low temperatures and life reduction at high exposure to higher temperatures,” he said. “If you want to replace your battery every four to five years and someone is willing to pay for [a replacement battery], either the customer or the manufacturer, a modest or minimal HVAC system may work.”

The Volt actively manages both low-temperature and high-temperature conditions.

“Additionally, we cycle the battery in a much friendlier way than our BEV competitors which need an 85 percent state-of-charge window to get their miles and this EV range begins degrading after day one of usage,” Posawatz added, referring to the fact that the Volt only cycles through 8 kilowatt-hours of the pack’s 16-kilowatt-hour capacity, which also contributes to longer life. Even with these conservative engineering approaches, Posawatz said, “our 10-year target still yields a battery with 70 to 75 percent of the capacity at the end of life.”



Nissan’s confidence on this matter aside, early purchasers of the Leaf should consider taking the company up on its offer to lease the battery, which would leave any financial risk of early battery degradation where it belongs — with Nissan.

[Powderkeg]

I think Nissan is going to have to eat these words (issued at the launch of the car)

So Nissan says putting a cooling system in would actually make the battery deteriorate faster.??



http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/TECH...v_battery.html

A battery without a cooling system?
When Leaf was released, possibly one aspect of its technology surprised other carmakers’ engineers the most: Nissan Leaf’s battery has no cooling system. To achieve this, the temperature is controlled by adjustment of the battery’s internal resistance, keeping the increase in battery temperature down. Based on findings from past EV technology, engineers performed simulations examining temperature increase alongside the Leaf concept, the amount of electricity used, and the frequency of charging.

When a battery has a cooling system, then more space and cost are also needed to install the system, and that can also mean a vehicle that costs more and a battery that deteriorates faster. In a nutshell, a battery without a cooling system has more merits for the customer.

A battery that can control its heating temperature without a cooling mechanism is also longer lasting, since the biggest cause of a battery’s lifespan being shortened is overheating. In other words, having a cooling system to lower the temperature of a battery in case of overheating has adverse effects on the battery’s durability – it’s better to engineer a battery system that works to avoid overheating to begin with.

[SidVicious]

What kind of insane person would do such a thing to their car?

The kind of person that lives around here and has a job.

Inside your car it can reach nearly 200*F without ventilation. I always leave the windows down on my car when I park it. Just that helps a LOT. We hunt for shade, even a wispy little tree, to park under...

But winter time is glorious.

[freedomgli]

Score another one for the Volt.

+1

[TopDown_]

Elon Musk called Nissan out on this two years ago

http://earth2tech.com/2010/08/05/tes...-is-primitive/

exactly

the LEAF pack uses an air cooling system. As a result, the LEAF pack will have temperatures “all over the place,” causing it to suffer “huge degradation” in cold environments and basically “shut off” in hot environments, claimed Musk. Liquid cooling systems (General Motors’ choice for the Volt battery pack) can be more complicated, but also more compact than air cooling systems.

[uncleho]

We're all speculating until we get answers to these specific customer battery capacity degradations. It isn't the proven root cause, yet.

[VarianceVQ]

It's weird that it only seems to be an Arizona issue. Don't New Mexico, Nevada, and southern California see some pretty hot temps, too?