Official FORMULA 1 ENI MAGYAR NAGYDÍJ 2012 Hungary

[kfzmeister]

The real question is: "how will Vettel and Webbo do now that their technical advantage is gone?"
I would love to see Webbo take a WDC before he retires, but I don't know if it will happen now.

I'm curious how that will affect them this weekend.......

[gizmopop]

You superimpose a 4 cylinder torque curve on an 8 cylinder torque curve and let me know how that goes.

That would depend on the displacement of each engine wouldn't it?

The real question is: "how will Vettel and Webbo do now that their technical advantage is gone?"
I would love to see Webbo take a WDC before he retires, but I don't know if it will happen now.

Webber is still ahead, but Vettel is right there with him. Of course Alonso has scored points in every race so far this season. There are 10 races left and more than a handful of teams capable of the podium.

[Mk1Racer]

You superimpose a 4 cylinder torque curve on an 8 cylinder torque curve and let me know how that goes.

If the mapping was banned either A.) it was political and F1 is complete BS like NASCRAP and WWE or B.) they weren't compliant to the regs.

Yes they were trying to exploit an ambiguity in the regs, but it's done and over now.

The real question is: "how will Vettel and Webbo do now that their technical advantage is gone?"
I would love to see Webbo take a WDC before he retires, but I don't know if it will happen now.

Are you saying that a 4-cyl engine can't have a similar torque curve to an 8-cyl engine?

And I suspect that it's a lot more A than B. How do you all of a sudden determine something that's been run for most (all?) of the season to now not be compliant?

And it's a designer's job to design to optimize w/in the regs. If the regs are poorly written, why is the designer penalized and not the author of the regs? It really is BS to change regs like that mid-season. Implement it for the following year, but you need to freeze regs once the season has started, unless it's something that impacts all teams equally.

[nickthaskater]

You superimpose a 4 cylinder torque curve on an 8 cylinder torque curve and let me know how that goes.

If the mapping was banned either A.) it was political and F1 is complete BS like NASCRAP and WWE or B.) they weren't compliant to the regs.

Yes they were trying to exploit an ambiguity in the regs, but it's done and over now.

The real question is: "how will Vettel and Webbo do now that their technical advantage is gone?"
I would love to see Webbo take a WDC before he retires, but I don't know if it will happen now.

The torque curve is reduced, yes, but it was not negative (the car is still generating torque as the throttle is being applied, thus it's not negative).

The mapping was "banned" because the rule was open to interpretation; read: grey area/loophole. At the time of RBR's implementation and use of the map, it was not illegal. Now, yes; then, no.

Of course they were trying to exploit an ambiguity; every team does, and you'd be stupid not to if you want to actually win a race or a championship. There is no point acting like RBR did something unspeakable by interpreting the rules to their advantage when it's what every team has done since the first rule was written.

Given that the map in question was supposedly only used at Hockenheim (read: their other maps prior to were acceptable), I doubt it will affect them in any major way.

[nickthaskater]

It really is BS to change regs like that mid-season. Implement it for the following year, but you need to freeze regs once the season has started, unless it's something that impacts all teams equally.

This. It's not as if one team has more of an advantage over another; they're all free to interpret the rule in the same way, and it's the teams which win championships which are smart enough to interpret them to their greatest advantage, which is no different than any rule.

God forbid someone actually does something clever in F1 without being slammed for it

[kfzmeister]

Are you saying that a 4-cyl engine can't have a similar torque curve to an 8-cyl engine?

And I suspect that it's a lot more A than B. How do you all of a sudden determine something that's been run for most (all?) of the season to now not be compliant?

And it's a designer's job to design to optimize w/in the regs. If the regs are poorly written, why is the designer penalized and not the author of the regs? It really is BS to change regs like that mid-season. Implement it for the following year, but you need to freeze regs once the season has started, unless it's something that impacts all teams equally.

In general, those two torque curves would be different. Also depends on what one calls similar.

FIA delegate closely watches engine mapping and found something different than at previous GPs.

Regs are designed to attempt to achieve something and RB went against that attempt. All teams push the envelope and when caught, pay the price. In this case, i think, McLaren stirred the pot.

[kfzmeister]

The torque curve is reduced, yes, but it was not negative (the car is still generating torque as the throttle is being applied, thus it's not negative).

Torque was less than what the engine is capable of, therefore reduced/ altered. Rule about mapping was intended to prevent that. Red Bull explained that they "thought" it meant what torque they told it to produce that weekend.

[Binary Star]

Really interesting write up on the whole ordeal: http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/...ap-controversy

most interesting part or the part that RedBull decided to interpret differently:

"Going by what the regulations were supposed to have meant, Red Bull had contravened them. Going by what they actually said, they had not. Reducing the torque demand at full throttle from one race to the next is very different from reducing the full-throttle torque demand of the engine on that day as a certain engine speed is reached.

Red Bull chose to read the regulation in a way that meant the latter - and its map did not contravene that reading. The FIA meant torque demand relative to what the engine is ultimately capable of. Red Bull chose it to mean torque demand relative to what that engine was capable of with that map on that day - and on those terms there was no reduction, and therefore no offence."

I also find surprising what McL's J.Neal had to say about the FIA's technical delegate...

Q: We believe the FIA will issue a clarification about Red Bull’s engine mapping soon. Do you think that will have an impact on the competitive order?
JN: That’s a really interesting question and the answer is I really don’t know. None of us really know what it is that antagonised the FIA so much to provoke Jo Bauer to send the note that he did on Sunday morning. It was a quite unusual step. I don’t think the FIA would have referred it to the stewards if they didn’t have very serious concerns. I have read the press like you have and there are lots of allusions to the fact that there might be some measures taken to stop it. It’s really not for us to know. It’s very hard to tell exactly what their engine is doing and how much advantage they get from it on their car as part of an integrated performance package.

from http://www.formula1.com/news/intervi...2/7/13638.html

[tbvvw]

I'm sure FA probably doesn't think this way but the teams sure do...FA is almost at a place in the driver standings and race calendar where he and Ferrari can begin to play points management.

He has a 3.4 pts per remaining race lead over MW and 4.4 over SV. All he has to do is continue to consistently land on the podium to win his 3rd WDC.

Here's hoping for a FA DNF to make it more interesting...

[Binary Star]

Here's hoping for a FA DNF to make it more interesting...

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

[kfzmeister]

I

He has a 3.4 pts per remaining race lead over MW and 4.4 over SV. All he has to do is continue to consistently land on the podium to win his 3rd WDC.

Alain Prost anyone? El profesor......

[Mk1Racer]

I'm sure FA probably doesn't think this way but the teams sure do...FA is almost at a place in the driver standings and race calendar where he and Ferrari can begin to play points management.

He has a 3.4 pts per remaining race lead over MW and 4.4 over SV. All he has to do is continue to consistently land on the podium to win his 3rd WDC.

Here's hoping for a FA DNF to make it more interesting...

"Points management" w/ a 34 point lead and 10 races to go? With the way the points schedule is? If Ferrari does that, they'll watch him lose the WDC. He needs to consistently finish ahead of MW and SV to win the WDC. And you've got a whole host of guys playing spoiler. It's only a matter of time before KR is on the top step. And guys like SP, RG, LH, JB, NR, MS will be more than happy to play spoiler.

No, Ferrari need to keep the bit between their teeth and their eyes on the prize.

[24vEngineer]

Wins equal championships....except if you are keke rosberg.

[tbvvw]

"Points management" w/ a 34 point lead and 10 races to go? With the way the points schedule is?

I wrote FA/Ferrari is "almost" at a place where they can think about doing that. Yes he needs to stay out front but he's not going to take greater risks that as the season progresses. With his consistency, his qualifying, it's realistic to think that Ferrari will plan around it after a couple more races should he stay this far out front. Ever since the change in the points system, compounded with the current tire situation...it's a realistic approach.

[Mk1Racer]

I wrote FA/Ferrari is "almost" at a place where they can think about doing that. Yes he needs to stay out front but he's not going to take greater risks that as the season progresses. With his consistency, his qualifying, it's realistic to think that Ferrari will plan around it after a couple more races should he stay this far out front. Ever since the change in the points system, compounded with the current tire situation...it's a realistic approach.

And you said that 'all he has to do is consistently land on the podium to win his 3rd WDC'. He still has to finish ahead of SV and MW. And I'm trying to figure out what the 'current tire situation' has to do w/ this. I'm not even sure what you mean by the 'current tire situation'.

[The Ninja]

Can we get back to talking about the actual race? They are calling for rain this weekend which might actually make the race interesting.

[GTIVRSEX2]

Can we get back to talking about the actual race? They are calling for rain this weekend which might actually make the race interesting.

Schumi, schumi!

[nickthaskater]

Schumi, schumi!

He has definitely looked promising in the wet this year, though FA has proven to have upped his rain-game dramatically as well, and he was no slouch to begin with.

[rrr rr]

None of us really know what it is that antagonised the FIA so much to provoke Jo Bauer to send the note that he did on Sunday morning.

Lol! Sure you don't know, Jonathan Neal, sure you don't.

[tbvvw]

And you said that 'all he has to do is consistently land on the podium to win his 3rd WDC'. He still has to finish ahead of SV and MW. And I'm trying to figure out what the 'current tire situation' has to do w/ this. I'm not even sure what you mean by the 'current tire situation'.

And I stand by that podium statement. Ex: FA could finish 2nd behind SV on the podium for the next 6 races in a row and still lead the championship. The 2 RB drivers will be fighting each other as much as they will be fighting FA and the Mclarens, others. FA is in a great spot right now and as the season progresses, the team can take a more conservative approach. Ex. FA doesn't need to make a move like SV on JB last week and risk a crash or penalty. As for the tires, I am speaking of the degredation the Pirellis suffer from. It's more unpredictable. Look at how FA and others like LH have been passed at the end of races when the tires are shot. FA can pit for points rather than ride it out and risk having a procession of cars pass him in the late stages.

Sure the idea is to win races...but a team manager views race strategy differently with a lead later in the season.

[hemanthjava]

Hungarian Grand Prix 2012 Live Stream Watch Online free here. The 2012 Hungarian Grand Prix is a Formula One motor race that will take place at the Hungaroring circuit near Mogyoród, Hungary on 29 July 2012.

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[Mk1Racer]

And I stand by that podium statement. Ex: FA could finish 2nd behind SV on the podium for the next 6 races in a row and still lead the championship. The 2 RB drivers will be fighting each other as much as they will be fighting FA and the Mclarens, others. FA is in a great spot right now and as the season progresses, the team can take a more conservative approach. Ex. FA doesn't need to make a move like SV on JB last week and risk a crash or penalty. As for the tires, I am speaking of the degredation the Pirellis suffer from. It's more unpredictable. Look at how FA and others like LH have been passed at the end of races when the tires are shot. FA can pit for points rather than ride it out and risk having a procession of cars pass him in the late stages.

Sure the idea is to win races...but a team manager views race strategy differently with a lead later in the season.

Yeah, but it's a 34 point lead halfway through the season. And I don't see the tire degradation as 'unpredictable'. They may not know when they're going to go, but when they do, they're gone. Nothing gradual, just here one lap, and pretty much toast the next. The thing is, pretty much everyone is in the same boat. What has been somewhat surprising in the last few races, is how much better the primes end up being than the options.

[rscshakespeare]

so practice 1 and 2 were nothing special. just ptactice.

why is it that when mclaren head the time sheets in practice they are talked about as amazing, oh my god, nobody can beat them so on and so on. they are always good in practice.

its funny to see how mclaren are acting suprised that redbull got penalised for engine maps. they are the ones crying every minute about neweys ideas. for the IA to change the rule mid season is also stupid.

whats this, redbull are down in practice. the rules hit them so hard so they must have cheated. what nonsense.

the FIA have been told about an illegal cooling system mclaren are using on their engine. i have no information on this. anyone hear of this.

hamilton was p1 both sessions in the dry but never ran the intermediates in the wet like many others.

the guys on speed feel the lewis might go to ferrari even though alonso said no. but hey are sure acting friendly lately. lewis said he would never leave mclaren a million times and no interest in ferrari. matchett feels that hamilton dreams of a ferrari drive. i just do not see it happening, unless alonso would be stupid to aggravate his comfort and power as the team leader. there would be problems at some point. hamilton does not want to be a number 2 either. remember (massa).... alonso is faster than you. you understand this statement

i am sure redbull will be up there as newey i am sure has backup plans..

[gizmopop]

I don't see Hamilton leaving Mclaren unless they have consecutive seasons of bad performing cars. Hamilton has been quick enough to qualify on the front row for 8 of the 10 races run so far, in 2 of them he was penalized.
Mclaren has delivered a competitive car for him for as long as he has been with the team. Another reason would be a falling out with his teammate, but he doesn't seem to mind being paired up with Button.

Ferrari can't ask for a better driver than Alonso right now. Their problem is Massa who has had more inspired drives of late, but isn't pulling his end of the Constructors Championship.

F1 has already played out the Alonso/Hamilton teammate situation and it did not end well. I don't know that either driver wants to try it again.

[Binary Star]

If anything, we'll see Kov in Ferrari before Lewis. Lewis is MCL all the way.

Also to the guy above who said "its funny to see how mclaren are acting suprised that redbull got penalised for engine maps. they are the ones crying every minute about neweys ideas" - where do you get your information from?

[kfzmeister]

If anything, we'll see Kov in Ferrari before Lewis. Lewis is MCL all the way.

Also to the guy above who said "its funny to see how mclaren are acting suprised that redbull got penalised for engine maps. they are the ones crying every minute about neweys ideas" - where do you get your information from?

It is speculated that the whole push for mapping on the Red Bull was from McLaren. Now the rumor is that McLaren is supposedly using illegal cooling (can't confirm that claim yet)? Involvement from Red Bull anyone?? I bet Ferrari are hoping that this McLaren-Red Bull squabble intensifies!!!!

[Binary Star]

It is speculated that the whole push for mapping on the Red Bull was from McLaren.

Interesting... did not know that.

[rscshakespeare]

kfz, thanks for the support and yes binary star, i accept your apology

[Oliver@triplezoom]

Will be interesting to see how fast the McLarens are this weekend. They definitely showed promise in Germany.

[kfzmeister]

... It's also true to say Red Bull did not look very good in first practice in Hungary, on a track which should suit their car.

It's too early to draw any conclusions from that.

But what you can say is that they were doing a lot of mechanical changes to their set-up, more than I have seen them do for a considerable amount of time, and the car did not look that good out on the track.

[naiku]

Now the rumor is that McLaren is supposedly using illegal cooling (can't confirm that claim yet)?

Not heard anything about that one yet, but apparently Red Bull were running an illegal way of manipulating the ride height of their cars. No idea how long they were running it, but apparently the FIA discovered it in Canada.

Red Bull ride height

If true it's blatant cheating and way outside of any of their typical push the boundaries exploiting of loopholes.

[nickthaskater]

Not heard anything about that one yet, but apparently Red Bull were running an illegal way of manipulating the ride height of their cars. No idea how long they were running it, but apparently the FIA discovered it in Canada.

Red Bull ride height

If true it's blatant cheating and way outside of any of their typical push the boundaries exploiting of loopholes.

Perhaps the system utilizes some sort of "tool" (such as a wheel lock "key" for your road car's lug nuts), which would mean that the system isn't in direct violation of the rule in question.

If there was sufficient evidence that the car was so "blatantly" illegal, there is no way we just be hearing about it now, nor would RBR have escaped any sanctions at the Canadian GP or thereafter. I'm guessing it was another loophole/grey area issue where they were going against the 'intent' of the rule, rather than breaking it outright.

That, and I really don't think RBR are stupid enough to run something that is blatantly against the rules. It's far more in line with their behaviour to push the regs rather than break them.

[Binary Star]

kfz, thanks for the support and yes binary star, i accept your apology

Apology? For what? Asking a question?

Not heard anything about that one yet, but apparently Red Bull were running an illegal way of manipulating the ride height of their cars. No idea how long they were running it, but apparently the FIA discovered it in Canada.

Red Bull ride height

If true it's blatant cheating and way outside of any of their typical push the boundaries exploiting of loopholes.

surprising is the fact that it would the third time they got to race after finding out that their cars didn't comply with the rules (or the way they were intended lol) (Monaco, Canada and Germany)

but, gotta hand it to Newey & Co. for coming up these master ideas that somehow let them keep their results on the race day.

[naiku]

Perhaps the system utilizes some sort of "tool" (such as a wheel lock "key" for your road car's lug nuts), which would mean that the system isn't in direct violation of the rule in question.

If there was sufficient evidence that the car was so "blatantly" illegal, there is no way we just be hearing about it now, nor would RBR have escaped any sanctions at the Canadian GP or thereafter. I'm guessing it was another loophole/grey area issue where they were going against the 'intent' of the rule, rather than breaking it outright.

That's what is weird about it (if true) from the sounds of things it can be done with no tools at all, which is against regulations. But like you said, if its that blatant then you would think more would have been heard about it.

Will be interesting to see if anything else comes about from it, currently I think its only the 1 article.

[rscshakespeare]

is it true that redbull did not even use the softs (never) during fp1 and fp2? both drivers. that vettel on mediums was just 0.8 off of hamiltons soft pace and feels he can get plenty out. go get them boy!

kimi needs a win.. this should be a good race to get it.