Higher altitude issues with MS1 tune on 16V ITB

[Dubrunner]

Hey all you MS gurus!

Had a friend affiliated with a group of well-known MS tuners here in the NW work with me on tuning my 2L 16V ITB Golf. All has worked pretty well (Thanks Guys!) - however, I'm having quite large issues with higher altitude sputtering, bucking and running super lean - as in making no power to go up the mountain roads. I've looked at the tune and added EGO corrections for Control Step size (2) and Controller Authorization (12%). Previously these were "0" on both - oops. I know I can turn EGO correction on in the Lambda settings (Lambda Sensor targets), and then use the VE Table for the AFR Target table. However, I wasn't clear on editing this table so tried a bit with the default AFR table, but with no change, I turned that setting off again.

The problem I'm seeing is at anything over 2000ft, the map will not read above 54kph and the fueling on my AFR (AEM UEGO) is literally off-the-gauge, lean when trying to put any throttle beyond about halfway. I was running the laptop while driving yesterday so I could run a few Datalogs of the issue. I even tried adding a few more bits of fuel to the VE Table in that RPM area - around 2500-3000 - but no change.

Are there any suggestions or anything I can do to get the car running better over the mountain? I can't be stuck to just sea-level driving!

I have the datalogs and all the deets, if any of the gurus are interested. Thanks all!

[frechem]

Sucks that you are having this problem too. I don't go to the mountains very often so it's hard to keep testing things to see if they solved the issue but I don't want to be stuck at ground level either.

You might have better luck trying them out and reporting back. Hopefully it's an easy fix.

[ps2375]

What code version and what chip(1 or 2) and as I asked in the other thread s/d or alpha/n?

[Dubrunner]

Code Version: MS/Extra HR_10

Chip: B&G Green board w MC928CP32CPE 3K085 (or nearest I can tell) - which is chip #2, I believe.

Speed Density (totally forgot to add that in the first post, would've helped)

Thanks!

[ps2375]

2.2 or 3.0 board and MS1 or MS 2 chip?

[Dubrunner]

B&G "Green" board that says V2.2. The processor says MSV30, if that helps.

[ps2375]

OK, v2.2 board and MS1 chip.(should've known the chip as HR code is MS1)

I would think you'd want to run ITB's on alpha-n, what map spread do you have?

[Dubrunner]

OK, v2.2 board and MS1 chip.(should've known the chip as HR code is MS1)

I would think you'd want to run ITB's on alpha-n, what map spread do you have?

I'm not sure on what you mean by "Map Spread", as I'm not familiar with that terminology, but I'm guessing you mean how the "map" (map sensor) is spread out over the VE Table. To answer that question, its quite narrow, in that my car seems to run best at 50kph and over. I've included a couple screen shots of the 3D and Cell table:





If I had a good AlphaN tune, I might have a go to see how it works. I just thought since I could get a good MAP signal, I'd go for that. I'm definitely open to suggestions though!

[ps2375]

The "map spread" was my mistake, but you figured it out.

Try here:http://spitfireefi.com/ and look in the downloads section. There should be a decent starting place there.

[Dubrunner]

The "map spread" was my mistake, but you figured it out.

Try here:http://spitfireefi.com/ and look in the downloads section. There should be a decent starting place there.

Yep, I've checked those out before, but as I'm running HR_10 code, to use the Map for a 2L 16V, would mean reformatting the ECU (and not being able to return to the tune I'm running now). None seem to be running an AlphaN either. ?

[ps2375]

Yup, your correct, no ITB msq's there. I have seen some on MSRuns forum that are alpha-n. I would think that if your tune is decent and not too far off, the ECU should be able to compensate for altitude. I would check it to ensure that it is where it needs to be and then try it at altitude again. With the EGO correction on, that can cover for weaknesses in the base tune and then at altitude maybe have trouble compensating. (This is purely speculation based upon how it should work.)

[frechem]

I know my tune is good and I have tried turning it off then starting it back up when at altitude with no luck.

[Dubrunner]

I know my tune is good and I have tried turning it off then starting it back up when at altitude with no luck.

Same here! The tune in my car was based on his tune, with some modifications for my weakster, stockie on ITB's. So, I'm not sure if the altitude is affecting the "map reading" or if there is a weird problem with the HR code for the EGO compensation (as we both have that in common).

I'm tempted to update the HR_10 Code as I was told by SpitfireEFI that its a "branch" that is not really supported anymore - and thus is a wild child. But, Dear LORD is that a lot of work to re-import the tables and settings to be sure it will work "close" to the same.

More input?

[frechem]

I'm tempted to update the HR_10 Code as I was told by SplitfireEFI that its a "branch" that is not really supported anymore - and thus is a wild child. But, Dear LORD is that a lot of work to re-import the tables and settings to be sure it will work "close" to the same.

More input?

Same here. However, I don't really want to go through all the work and re-do all the tables and settings to try and get back to where I am currently at.

The last time I updated I was stranded on top of a mountain for several hours trying to figure things out. No bueno.

[psychobandito]

Didn't read the whole post, but if you use alpha-n, you can use barometric correction.

[ps2375]

Didn't read the whole post, but if you use alpha-n, you can use barometric correction.

This is true as it frees up the on-board map sensor for this duty at all times instead of just checking baro at startup.

Another thing I would check is plug gap, I recently was having some drive-ablilty issues and thought it was my tune/corn fuel, it turned out to be my spark plugs had worn to gap that was causing misfires at certain loads and was also worse with e10 gas. Just a thought.

[Dubrunner]

This is true as it frees up the on-board map sensor for this duty at all times instead of just checking baro at startup.

^ Interesting, I did not know that! Still, it seems that there are people running S/D all over who don't seem to be experiencing this extreme hindrance at altitude. I suppose I could create another tune using the same tables, only as an AlphaN, and see if that works. I know my TPS is dialed as its factory original on these ITBs. Hmm.

Another thing I would check is plug gap, I recently was having some drive-ablilty issues and thought it was my tune/corn fuel, it turned out to be my spark plugs had worn to gap that was causing misfires at certain loads and was also worse with e10 gas. Just a thought.

My Spark plugs have about 500 miles on them, so I wouldn't think this would cause this strong of an issue.

[ps2375]

What settings do you have in the table named "Lambda AFR Settings"? That is another place to run off the VE table or use the AFR targets. And what does your AFR target table look like?

[need_a_VR6]

Can you post an MSQ and a datalog?

Generally on MS1 I wouldn't do Speed-Density unless it's really small throttles and stock cams. If your lower kpa range is 50+ you are bound for Alpha-N anyway. MS2/3 can do some neat blending but on MS1 it's really hard to get a good tune (meeting AFR target at all loads) on SD alone with throttles on a car that makes power.

If you have a manifold and you have altitude problems, there's something else going on beyond the issues that one would have with ITBs.

[Dubrunner]

Can you post an MSQ and a datalog?

Generally on MS1 I wouldn't do Speed-Density unless it's really small throttles and stock cams. If your lower kpa range is 50+ you are bound for Alpha-N anyway. MS2/3 can do some neat blending but on MS1 it's really hard to get a good tune (meeting AFR target at all loads) on SD alone with throttles on a car that makes power.

If you have a manifold and you have altitude problems, there's something else going on beyond the issues that one would have with ITBs.

Interesting, I didn't know that MS1 was that limited, although I should have expected that fact. I have 45mm and stock cams, but will be adding cams later, so this is great to know. Although, disheartening as I REALLY do not want to start over.

MSQ

Log1

Log2

Log3

Thanks for the help!

[ps2375]

Looking at tune,you have lots if IGN adv, too much if you go by what has been and is currently discussed.http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...827-Ms1-tuning And how are your AFR Target tables setup, when I tried loading the msq into my TS, they had a mismatch and never came through. How is your msq configured, this could point to why you are not getting altitude adjustments,,

You shouldn't need 20* of timing to idle, you should be able to back that down and add some air.

[need_a_VR6]

Ignition looks fine to me other then 50% fixed duty and running inverted output. For a stock VW ignition module, LED triggered that should be set to non-inverted. You will have to re-sync your timing most likely. Also, I don't remember the Rotary menu being there either but that could be memory related!

Baro correction is set to OFF and you arent' using the AFR tables at all. Not sure if the ego switch point matches your WB02 either. You might want to use more controller authority.

[Dubrunner]

Ignition looks fine to me other then 50% fixed duty and running inverted output. For a stock VW ignition module, LED triggered that should be set to non-inverted. You will have to re-sync your timing most likely. Also, I don't remember the Rotary menu being there either but that could be memory related!

Baro correction is set to OFF and you arent' using the AFR tables at all. Not sure if the ego switch point matches your WB02 either. You might want to use more controller authority.

You are correct, Sir. I just now set my tune back to the original tune that SpitfireEFI had created (meaning, the Controller Step and Authority were 0 - which I thought was the original problem). Then, last week I set it to 2 and 12 (respectively). There was a definite discrepancy between what TunerStudio was reading and my AFRs on the AEM UEGO while driving (TS was reading about 3 points richer - ie: 11:1 when AEM was 14:1).

Ignition Module: I'm actually using an MSD 6A (new digital style) so 50%, fixed duty, inverted would be correct, yes?

I did not use an AFR table as I wasn't sure how to set that up correctly (MS documents show that its merely an estimated table). AS well, I'm not sure if the switch point matches correctly or not - any ideas what it would be for an AEM UEGO controller? (I do not have that manual in front of me to confirm).

Hope that helps! I think we're getting closer, Mike!

[ps2375]

If you are not using an AFR Target table, why would to expect it to run correctly at anything other than the altitude it was tuned at? And how is it supposed to run/tune properly with that kind of mismatch between the wideband and what the ECU thinks it sees?

[Dubrunner]

If you are not using an AFR Target table, why would to expect it to run correctly at anything other than the altitude it was tuned at? And how is it supposed to run/tune properly with that kind of mismatch between the wideband and what the ECU thinks it sees?

I did the driving, the tuning was done by a professional, and he may not have known I'd be driving over the mountains. He did mention the Lambda AFR Setting area after I mentioned the initial failure to make it over the pass. And as I stated, I do not understand how to correct/modify the AFR table based on the VE table. I did turn it on while I was driving - yet as they are estimates, it did not change the issue. I see the AFR table is reading in a nomenclature synonymous with a system that was in the AEM manual (I'm assuming voltage) - I had not researched on how to actually switch it to AFR. The AEM and MS read perfectly in sync when not at elevation (probably due to there being no Step or Authority set for the controller) - and only after I set those, did the discrepancy start - probably due to both those settings and the elevation.

I do appreciate the input, and figure that area to be incorrectly set, but I'm assuming Frechem is probably in the same boat and he MAY have that AFR table set to be used to correct. Any suggestions on how to create that AFR Table?

[ps2375]

The afr's that MS see's is solely based upon what it is being told by the wideband controller, doesn't matter if correction is on or not. How they are the same at base altitude and not at altitude makes no sense as again MS sees what it's told. I have seen slight diff between MS and the controller, but that is at all times and is generally due to grounds, if all the settings are correct in MS.

And most "professionals" will know that altitude will make a difference. That is part of the reason O2 sensors are used for.

[Dubrunner]

I'll definitely have a look to see if something was changed between the AEM controller and which Wideband the MS is set to (as there are a few choices for that controller. It wasn't until after those changes that the AFR seemed to read differently, however, I'll also have a look at the grounds to see if there is something going on at those two areas on the car (I set those to the book, and like I said, the controller and MS were nearly right on before).

So, verdict:

1) Turn On the Lambda AFR Settings to enable use of the AFR table, based on the VE table

2) Edit the AFR Table - is there a way to change it to AFR instead of voltage? I will set this based on targets from the RPM's/KPH VE Table, correct? I'm not sure I understand how to "estimate" these AFR's unless I'm going off of memory from driving at sea level.

3) Continue to use Step:2 and Authority:12

4) Check EGO switch point is correct for my Controller (also in AEM manual, I expect)

4) Check to be sure the the Controller and MS are set correctly to each other as well as the grounds for each are good.

Does that look about correct?

Again, anyone want to take a look a the MSQ and modify a good starting point for my AFR Table. At least then I can have a visual of what should work.

Thanks all!

[ps2375]

I'll definitely have a look to see if something was changed between the AEM controller and which Wideband the MS is set to (as there are a few choices for that controller. It wasn't until after those changes that the AFR seemed to read differently, however, I'll also have a look at the grounds to see if there is something going on at those two areas on the car (I set those to the book, and like I said, the controller and MS were nearly right on before).

So, verdict:

1) Turn On the Lambda AFR Settings to enable use of the AFR table, based on the VE table

2) Edit the AFR Table - is there a way to change it to AFR instead of voltage? I will set this based on targets from the RPM's/KPH VE Table, correct? I'm not sure I understand how to "estimate" these AFR's unless I'm going off of memory from driving at sea level - the two tables use different measurements.

3) Continue to use Step:2 and Authority:12

4) Check EGO switch point is correct for my Controller (also in AEM manual, I expect)

4) Check to be sure the the Controller and MS are set correctly to each other as well as the grounds for each are good.

Does that look about correct?

Again, anyone want to take a look a the MSQ and modify a good starting point for my AFR Table. At least then I can have a visual of what should work.

Thanks all!

That is what I'd do. Not sure on #2 as I'm not sure how your code is set up. You could have it generate a new table set the way you need it.

[need_a_VR6]

If you are going to use the AFR table you need to make the AEM and the MS read the same number, period. If you are seeing it in volts, you most likely have the wrong one selected, there are a few AEM choices make sure the output matches what your controller reads.

As long as you are using the correct settings in TS it should work as long as there isn't a big ground offset between the AEM and the MS. On many installs I see the WB02 grounded somewhere other then a good ground (side of engine/head) and that causes issues. If the AEM has a separate O2 signal ground, tying that right into the MS ground pin is a good idea.

[Dubrunner]

If you are going to use the AFR table you need to make the AEM and the MS read the same number, period. If you are seeing it in volts, you most likely have the wrong one selected, there are a few AEM choices make sure the output matches what your controller reads.

^ Yep, that makes perfect sense. I'll double-check that the correct AEM output is set for my controller (AEM 30-4100). In MS, I have it set for -

AEM UEGO(Legacy) Controller AEM-30-30-230X

The other choice is
AEM UEGO/Linear AEM-30-42XX

I have the AEM gauge set to (PO) which is default AFR values displayed. As its not linear, that 1st selection should be correct.

I'm 99% sure it was correct before the last tuning session as things were reading nearly the same between the controller and the MS. It was only when I was up in altitude that I noticed the gauge and the MS reading differently (which is weird to me). To confirm, I'm seeing the AFR Table in VOLTS (or so it looks) when setting the Lambda AFR Settings to use that particular table:



So, in order to more easily set this table up, it would be nice to use AFR. Am I missing something in my settings?

As long as you are using the correct settings in TS it should work as long as there isn't a big ground offset between the AEM and the MS. On many installs I see the WB02 grounded somewhere other then a good ground (side of engine/head) and that causes issues. If the AEM has a separate O2 signal ground, tying that right into the MS ground pin is a good idea.

^ I have my AEM grounded to one of the MS grounds I have going directly to the battery (about 4 ft) - which is the ground it uses for both O2 and gauge - (which is inside away from vibrations and the elements) - so that should be good. Again, initially before the last tune, they read the same. So, when I get back to the car (which is still at sea level in Portland), I can check that again.

Otherwise, I need a to figure out a good table to get this thing on track to being solved.

[need_a_VR6]

That controller is 0-5v=10-20 afr which is a totally different option. The old aems were non linear hence the volt display. Change your setting and verify that its working correctly.

[Dubrunner]

I was doing some research here and found that I may have that set incorrectly. I went back and checked my old Project (before the last tuning session), BINGO, the settings for that were indeed the LINEAR option. So, looks like I'll be changing the settings in this new Project and verifying that they read the same (or close) this time. I think my tuner might have switched it in the last tune, to read in AFR and not volts. There is a note in the Project Properties description - "This is for a different AFR reading - now read AFR and not VOLTS". Of course, I don't know what has been changed.

So, I have no idea if he changed the .ini files to work with that option. I saved a copy of the tune and then switched to the project to "AEM UEGO/Linear AEM-30-42XX" option, however the AFR table was still in volts. So, not sure what to do next.

[need_a_VR6]

You will have to reload an old tune and export an afr table and then import it into your current tune.

[Dubrunner]

You will have to reload an old tune and export an afr table and then import it into your current tune.

Do you mean re-load the old tune on the MS on the car itself, and then export the table

or

Open up the old project and export the AFR table. Then, close old project, open current project (with incorrect EGO settings that have been changed) and then import that table into the new project?

I tried the later way and the AFR table came in the same way. Also, in the old project (with correct EGO controller), allowing the Lambda Settings to use the AFR table results in an AFR table in volts as well. I'm not sure what is going on or if I should just open a new project, import the fuel/spark tables, starting from scratch. Cripes, I might as well do Alpha-N then!

[need_a_VR6]

You can just do it all offline. Just open an old tune that had afr not in volts, export that using the little green arrow in tha afr table. Open current tune and import that one back in.