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    Thread: Higher altitude issues with MS1 tune on 16V ITB

    1. Member Dubrunner's Avatar
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      07-27-2012 06:40 PM #36
      Ah okay, so that is the problem. The old tune is showing the AFR table in volts as well (when I engage it). I have the correct EGO setting (linear) on the old tune and still the AFR table shows in volts.

      Hmm, that means something needs to be changed somewhere deeper in the settings to get those to work correctly. OR, I guestimate with the AEM conversion chart in front of me for voltage and change/edit those in the new tune to match the AFR measurement I need.

      Man, this is difficult!

      I guess if it was easy, everyone would do it.

    2. Geriatric Member need_a_VR6's Avatar
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      07-28-2012 09:38 AM #37
      I have an itb tune on msruns, dow load it and export the table from that.

      Afr will show in volts always if you had ever had a non-supported wb in project settings. Just change yhe project and import an afr table thats in afr and you are good to go.
      -Paul
      1995 GTI VR6 - Retired - 12.90@106 R32 power - 12.833@106 12v power
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    3. Member Dubrunner's Avatar
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      07-28-2012 12:52 PM #38
      Quote Originally Posted by need_a_VR6 View Post
      I have an itb tune on msruns, dow load it and export the table from that.

      Afr will show in volts always if you had ever had a non-supported wb in project settings. Just change yhe project and import an afr table thats in afr and you are good to go.
      Awesome man, thank you! I'll take a look and see what kinda table you got going on there.

      However, researching most of last night, I found that NO AFR table was going to show in AFR's on my Project unless I dug deeper in the projectCfg file. This was because of the way the AEM was setup as default in TS and MegaTune. I recommend anyone using an AEM 30-4100 or 4200, to follow the link below if they are having the same trouble:

      http://www.miataturbo.net/megasquirt...t-table-28005/

      I use TS, so I had to fumble around a bit from the above link, but found where I needed to change the above parameters:

      1) Go to your TunerStudioProject Folder. Mine was under my My Documents folder on my PC
      2) Locate the Project you're working in > choose the projectCfg file
      3) You'll see the mainController file
      4) Once you have that open in NotePad or a text editor - you can then follow the steps in the above link to get your AEM to run AFR.

      Looking in the mainController file, I found clearly that my AEM was set to read in VOLTS for the Target AFR table in the list here:

      page = 7 ; TARGET AFR table 1 BINS FOR VE 1 (First find which sensor used)

      I made the highlighted changes (in red) and "voila", when I opened my Target AFR table, it was all zeros, but I was able to enter AFR's in there. OH happy day!

      Now, I cannot vouch for the lower or last part of the instructions as I could not locate a "lambdasensors.ini" file. So, we'll see how things go.

      need_a_VR6 - I'll try searching around for your AFR table and see about importing that and then set my Step and Controller Authority, and see what happens. I now have the car here at 3600ft, so I can start testing and seeing how it goes. Right now the car idles at about 600rpm when warm, which is about 360 lower than normal. So, obviously something in the elevation is affecting it. I'll report back as soon as I have a chance to import the new table and settings on the MS itself.

      Thanks!

    4. Member Dubrunner's Avatar
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      07-28-2012 01:02 PM #39
      Quote Originally Posted by need_a_VR6 View Post
      I have an itb tune on msruns, dow load it and export the table from that.
      I must have tried 20 times to search for your name and for an ITB tune, but with the search literally being a piece of poop and showing (Sorry but you cannot use search at this time. Please try again in a few minutes.) - I started banging my head.

      Have any idea where I might find in that mess they call a search function?

    5. Member ps2375's Avatar
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      07-28-2012 02:16 PM #40
      Go to the MSruns.com forum, for VW and look on second page, look for Paul_VR6
      Tradition is the art of making the same mistake repeatedly, on purpose.

    6. Member Dubrunner's Avatar
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      07-28-2012 06:02 PM #41
      Excellent, thanks man!

      I snagged this one as it's pretty damn close to my specs ---->

      And this one as it was ITB (even though it looked to be 8V) ----->

      Next up - lets see if I can't see some differences at this altitude. Closer and close, guys, thank you much.

      If this doesn't work, I "may" try the AlphaN route.
      Last edited by Dubrunner; 07-28-2012 at 06:09 PM.

    7. Geriatric Member need_a_VR6's Avatar
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      07-28-2012 06:09 PM #42
      Email me at kandpperformance at gmail dot com and I can send it.
      -Paul
      1995 GTI VR6 - Retired - 12.90@106 R32 power - 12.833@106 12v power
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    8. Member Dubrunner's Avatar
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      07-28-2012 11:47 PM #43
      Sent - thank you, Sir!

    9. Geriatric Member need_a_VR6's Avatar
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      07-29-2012 10:25 AM #44
      I sent the afr table. You will want to rescale the load axis to work with your tps or map range.
      -Paul
      1995 GTI VR6 - Retired - 12.90@106 R32 power - 12.833@106 12v power
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    10. Member Dubrunner's Avatar
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      07-30-2012 10:33 AM #45
      I sent the afr table. You will want to rescale the load axis to work with your tps or map range.
      Roger that - I received it and loaded it up into my .msq as it was. I'll look more closely at the MAP range to see that its scaling correctly. It looked pretty close to start.

      I then loaded the new map (with new EGO settings) to the MS and the AFR's are reading accurately between the gauge and MS now. The car started a bit harder than before, looked super rich and the idle was quite low. Took a bit of pedal work, but I was able to get it past its 15 second warmup then received a steady, albeit low, idle. I'm wondering if I need to adjust the idle bolt for this elevation or if there is a way I can get that to sit better. Could be the Target AFR table as well. It seems quite inconvenient to need to adjust the idle for elevation, but such may be the nature of ITB's (I would think not).

      Otherwise, I need to take it for a spin and see how the EGO correction and Target AFR table is affecting the higher altitude driving. Fingers crossed I have less bucking and sputtering.

      I'll report back later. Thanks again everyone!
      Last edited by Dubrunner; 07-30-2012 at 10:39 AM.

    11. Member Dubrunner's Avatar
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      07-30-2012 08:34 PM #46
      Went for a drive today and it sure didn't want idle more than 700 (even warmed up). The idle is set to 960rpm at idle at sea level, so I'm not sure what is going on there.

      I have this wicked, half-3/5 part throttle leanness happening (which caused bucking and hesitation before at altitude). Its continued to do this although not as bad now that EGO Correct is on. It affects the acceleration up hills and to get up to speed on straights - bucking, hesitating, etc - like either it retards the timing hugely, or is just WAY too lean in that area. If I let off the throttle part way or push quickly down on the gas to accelerate (basically modulate the throttle), the AFR's go richer and I can then accelerate, until the pedal reaches a certain point or around 3000rpm. Almost like a clogged fuel filter effect. I looked at the VE and AFR tables and they sure seem to be giving enough fuel at those RPM and Map points. I didn't get a log, but will go out again and record one. Either my msq sucks or something else is going on.

      Here is my msq as of now:

      CurrentTune7302012.msq

      I've double-checked the timing in the MSQ, and will have to try the timing light procedure again, but I'm positive I'm where I need to be. I'm starting an Alpha-N tune offline now to see how difficult that is to put together.
      Last edited by Dubrunner; 07-31-2012 at 10:29 AM.

    12. Member ps2375's Avatar
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      07-30-2012 08:44 PM #47
      I don't remember if you have TS, but if you do, set the VE Analyze to "Easy" drive it, then go thru each setting and see what it does and how it drives. I'll bet it'll help. Don't be afraid of the #'s it generates, unless it goes too far rich or lean, then you have something else going on.

      And if you don't have a licensed copy, get it, it's well worth it.
      Tradition is the art of making the same mistake repeatedly, on purpose.

    13. Member Dubrunner's Avatar
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      07-31-2012 10:37 AM #48
      Yep, I'm using TS and a full copy with VE Analyzer is on the way. Hopefully, that will get me set a bit. That is, AFTER I replace the gasket between the water pump and housing (gah), just started to drip yesterday - I've only driven the car 500 miles since assembly!

    14. Geriatric Member need_a_VR6's Avatar
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      08-01-2012 05:02 PM #49
      Can you take a log with that exact tune once you get mechanicals back in order?
      -Paul
      1995 GTI VR6 - Retired - 12.90@106 R32 power - 12.833@106 12v power
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    15. Member Dubrunner's Avatar
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      08-02-2012 10:11 AM #50
      Absolutely! I'd love for you to have a look at the logs and what the heck is going on in the middle range there. I'm hoping that you find some good stuff in Frechem's tune as well so that maybe we can all learn a bit more on how to dial in MS1, Speed Density, and ITB's at altitude!

      PS: Waterpump has been ordered as well as more coolant (I'm not looking forward to replacing most of my brand new coolant, either)

    16. Member frechem's Avatar
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      08-02-2012 11:05 AM #51
      Quote Originally Posted by Dubrunner View Post
      (I'm not looking forward to replacing most of my brand new coolant, either)
      Just catch it in a clean container and reuse it. No need to thow it out and use new stuff.

    17. Geriatric Member need_a_VR6's Avatar
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      08-02-2012 12:39 PM #52
      So I tweaked his file to match his actual map range, should help a bit.
      -Paul
      1995 GTI VR6 - Retired - 12.90@106 R32 power - 12.833@106 12v power
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    18. Member Dubrunner's Avatar
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      08-03-2012 09:46 AM #53
      Quote Originally Posted by frechem View Post
      Just catch it in a clean container and reuse it. No need to thow it out and use new stuff.
      Ha ha - that's actually what I did yesterday. Now I just have to burp the system as having no expansion tank can be a little finicky. Hopefully, I can run it around and get a decent log file!

      need_a_VR6
      So I tweaked his file to match his actual map range, should help a bit.
      ^ Paul, did you mean you tweaked Frechem's file or did you mess with mine on dropbox? If you did tweak mine, I'll still run a log of the original file first, so we can have a good run on where the "issue" may be.

    19. Geriatric Member need_a_VR6's Avatar
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      08-03-2012 02:14 PM #54
      Freechems, I need a good log of yours before I do anything with yours.
      -Paul
      1995 GTI VR6 - Retired - 12.90@106 R32 power - 12.833@106 12v power
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    20. Member Dubrunner's Avatar
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      08-30-2012 05:51 PM #55
      Aaaaand we're back..

      After finding out that my crank sprocket had a nearly sheared Woodruff key AND the end of the crank needed a bit of filing for the new sprocket - I finally had everything back together. So, took the car out for two Datalogging runs (ran like poo when trying to smash the gas to 3K rpm - sputtering and bogging) but slowly accelerating would get be a bit farther in the RPM range to get up a hill, until still sputtering and bucking again.

      Two Datalogs below:

      1

      2

      Paul, hopefully you can take a peek and see what in the heck is going on! I've also relinked my map in my email to you.

      Thank you sir!
      Last edited by Dubrunner; 09-14-2012 at 04:52 PM.

    21. Member Dubrunner's Avatar
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      09-03-2012 04:52 PM #56
      Ah shoot, forgot it was Labor Day weekend! No wonder no one was around! (yes, I must be in the garage too much)

    22. Member Dubrunner's Avatar
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      09-14-2012 04:33 PM #57
      Just bumping this because it seems to be a real pain in the butt!

      Going to try to save my existing map as another name, then use the copied map and see if TS's autotune can do anything. Pacific Waterland is the last show in Portland and I haven't had the car there since it went under the knife.

      Pic for fun:
      Last edited by Dubrunner; 09-14-2012 at 04:37 PM.

    23. Geriatric Member need_a_VR6's Avatar
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      09-14-2012 04:45 PM #58
      I didn't see the log links until now. Shoot me your msq (or host it), also what WB02 you're using.
      -Paul
      1995 GTI VR6 - Retired - 12.90@106 R32 power - 12.833@106 12v power
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    24. Member Dubrunner's Avatar
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      09-14-2012 04:51 PM #59
      Quote Originally Posted by need_a_VR6 View Post
      I didn't see the log links until now. Shoot me your msq (or host it), also what WB02 you're using.
      ^ As always, uber fast. I sent the details and my dropbox files. Thank you Sir!

    25. Member frechem's Avatar
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      09-14-2012 05:19 PM #60
      Car looks great. Let's get a motor shot.

    26. Geriatric Member ValveCoverGasket's Avatar
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      09-18-2012 02:03 PM #61
      Quote Originally Posted by frechem View Post
      Car looks great. Let's get a motor shot.
      this

    27. Member Dubrunner's Avatar
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      09-19-2012 03:35 PM #62
      Thanks fellas. I'll get those very soon! I made a custom air box for the ITB's with a panel filter on the bottom so it all looks clean, but won't have time to fit this week.

      I'm waiting for Paul to have a look at my map to see how this whole "high-altitude" issue is panning out. I only have a couple days left until I make the 180 mile trip - so fingers crossed I get this somewhat squashed by then. I am working day and night to get it to Pacific Waterland this weekend. But, it only runs SUPER well under 2400ft - DOH! To get there I have to drive at 3500ft, then over the pass at 4800 - THEN, its down hill and I could coast.. haha...er...

    28. Member frechem's Avatar
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      09-19-2012 04:55 PM #63
      It seems like the only way to correct the altitude issue is to run a second map sensor.

    29. Geriatric Member ValveCoverGasket's Avatar
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      09-19-2012 04:59 PM #64
      Quote Originally Posted by frechem View Post
      It seems like the only way to correct the altitude issue is to run a second map sensor.
      the mapdad setup isnt really all that much cost wise. did that end up working on your car?

    30. Geriatric Member need_a_VR6's Avatar
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      09-19-2012 05:50 PM #65
      Sorry I'm slow, working alot last few weeks. I'll try and boot up the comp tonight and check some logs out.
      -Paul
      1995 GTI VR6 - Retired - 12.90@106 R32 power - 12.833@106 12v power
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    31. Member Dubrunner's Avatar
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      09-19-2012 05:54 PM #66
      Hey no problemo! I know you have a lot going on and you're doing ME a favor just for looking at it! I very much appreciate it, Paul! If the possibility is there to fix it - I'll be SUPER HAPPY!

    32. Member frechem's Avatar
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      09-19-2012 06:12 PM #67
      Quote Originally Posted by ValveCoverGasket View Post
      the mapdad setup isnt really all that much cost wise. did that end up working on your car?
      I haven't had it done but it looks like I will have to. I will have to research it some more to find out what all is involved.

    33. Geriatric Member ValveCoverGasket's Avatar
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      09-19-2012 06:13 PM #68
      simple as can be, just remove your old map sensor and replace with the mapdad board. run one jumper wire and recal the sensor values in MS and youre done

    34. Member frechem's Avatar
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      09-19-2012 06:53 PM #69
      Quote Originally Posted by ValveCoverGasket View Post
      simple as can be, just remove your old map sensor and replace with the mapdad board. run one jumper wire and recal the sensor values in MS and youre done
      OK sounds simple enough. Is there a link for this?

    35. Geriatric Member ValveCoverGasket's Avatar
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      09-19-2012 07:18 PM #70
      Quote Originally Posted by frechem View Post
      OK sounds simple enough. Is there a link for this?
      http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/m...ion-p-117.html


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