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    Thread: Higher altitude issues with MS1 tune on 16V ITB

    1. Member ps2375's Avatar
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      07-26-2012 12:58 PM #26
      The afr's that MS see's is solely based upon what it is being told by the wideband controller, doesn't matter if correction is on or not. How they are the same at base altitude and not at altitude makes no sense as again MS sees what it's told. I have seen slight diff between MS and the controller, but that is at all times and is generally due to grounds, if all the settings are correct in MS.

      And most "professionals" will know that altitude will make a difference. That is part of the reason O2 sensors are used for.
      Tradition is the art of making the same mistake repeatedly, on purpose.

    2. Member Dubrunner's Avatar
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      07-26-2012 01:15 PM #27
      I'll definitely have a look to see if something was changed between the AEM controller and which Wideband the MS is set to (as there are a few choices for that controller. It wasn't until after those changes that the AFR seemed to read differently, however, I'll also have a look at the grounds to see if there is something going on at those two areas on the car (I set those to the book, and like I said, the controller and MS were nearly right on before).

      So, verdict:

      1) Turn On the Lambda AFR Settings to enable use of the AFR table, based on the VE table

      2) Edit the AFR Table - is there a way to change it to AFR instead of voltage? I will set this based on targets from the RPM's/KPH VE Table, correct? I'm not sure I understand how to "estimate" these AFR's unless I'm going off of memory from driving at sea level.

      3) Continue to use Step:2 and Authority:12

      4) Check EGO switch point is correct for my Controller (also in AEM manual, I expect)

      4) Check to be sure the the Controller and MS are set correctly to each other as well as the grounds for each are good.

      Does that look about correct?

      Again, anyone want to take a look a the MSQ and modify a good starting point for my AFR Table. At least then I can have a visual of what should work.

      Thanks all!
      Last edited by Dubrunner; 07-26-2012 at 01:33 PM.

    3. Member ps2375's Avatar
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      07-26-2012 01:34 PM #28
      Quote Originally Posted by Dubrunner View Post
      I'll definitely have a look to see if something was changed between the AEM controller and which Wideband the MS is set to (as there are a few choices for that controller. It wasn't until after those changes that the AFR seemed to read differently, however, I'll also have a look at the grounds to see if there is something going on at those two areas on the car (I set those to the book, and like I said, the controller and MS were nearly right on before).

      So, verdict:

      1) Turn On the Lambda AFR Settings to enable use of the AFR table, based on the VE table

      2) Edit the AFR Table - is there a way to change it to AFR instead of voltage? I will set this based on targets from the RPM's/KPH VE Table, correct? I'm not sure I understand how to "estimate" these AFR's unless I'm going off of memory from driving at sea level - the two tables use different measurements.

      3) Continue to use Step:2 and Authority:12

      4) Check EGO switch point is correct for my Controller (also in AEM manual, I expect)

      4) Check to be sure the the Controller and MS are set correctly to each other as well as the grounds for each are good.

      Does that look about correct?

      Again, anyone want to take a look a the MSQ and modify a good starting point for my AFR Table. At least then I can have a visual of what should work.

      Thanks all!
      That is what I'd do. Not sure on #2 as I'm not sure how your code is set up. You could have it generate a new table set the way you need it.
      Tradition is the art of making the same mistake repeatedly, on purpose.

    4. Geriatric Member need_a_VR6's Avatar
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      07-26-2012 04:14 PM #29
      If you are going to use the AFR table you need to make the AEM and the MS read the same number, period. If you are seeing it in volts, you most likely have the wrong one selected, there are a few AEM choices make sure the output matches what your controller reads.

      As long as you are using the correct settings in TS it should work as long as there isn't a big ground offset between the AEM and the MS. On many installs I see the WB02 grounded somewhere other then a good ground (side of engine/head) and that causes issues. If the AEM has a separate O2 signal ground, tying that right into the MS ground pin is a good idea.
      -Paul
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    5. Member Dubrunner's Avatar
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      07-26-2012 04:52 PM #30
      Quote Originally Posted by need_a_VR6 View Post
      If you are going to use the AFR table you need to make the AEM and the MS read the same number, period. If you are seeing it in volts, you most likely have the wrong one selected, there are a few AEM choices make sure the output matches what your controller reads.
      ^ Yep, that makes perfect sense. I'll double-check that the correct AEM output is set for my controller (AEM 30-4100). In MS, I have it set for -

      AEM UEGO(Legacy) Controller AEM-30-30-230X

      The other choice is
      AEM UEGO/Linear AEM-30-42XX

      I have the AEM gauge set to (PO) which is default AFR values displayed. As its not linear, that 1st selection should be correct.

      I'm 99% sure it was correct before the last tuning session as things were reading nearly the same between the controller and the MS. It was only when I was up in altitude that I noticed the gauge and the MS reading differently (which is weird to me). To confirm, I'm seeing the AFR Table in VOLTS (or so it looks) when setting the Lambda AFR Settings to use that particular table:



      So, in order to more easily set this table up, it would be nice to use AFR. Am I missing something in my settings?

      Quote Originally Posted by need_a_VR6 View Post
      As long as you are using the correct settings in TS it should work as long as there isn't a big ground offset between the AEM and the MS. On many installs I see the WB02 grounded somewhere other then a good ground (side of engine/head) and that causes issues. If the AEM has a separate O2 signal ground, tying that right into the MS ground pin is a good idea.
      ^ I have my AEM grounded to one of the MS grounds I have going directly to the battery (about 4 ft) - which is the ground it uses for both O2 and gauge - (which is inside away from vibrations and the elements) - so that should be good. Again, initially before the last tune, they read the same. So, when I get back to the car (which is still at sea level in Portland), I can check that again.

      Otherwise, I need a to figure out a good table to get this thing on track to being solved.

    6. Geriatric Member need_a_VR6's Avatar
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      07-26-2012 08:27 PM #31
      That controller is 0-5v=10-20 afr which is a totally different option. The old aems were non linear hence the volt display. Change your setting and verify that its working correctly.
      -Paul
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    7. Member Dubrunner's Avatar
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      07-26-2012 09:11 PM #32
      I was doing some research here and found that I may have that set incorrectly. I went back and checked my old Project (before the last tuning session), BINGO, the settings for that were indeed the LINEAR option. So, looks like I'll be changing the settings in this new Project and verifying that they read the same (or close) this time. I think my tuner might have switched it in the last tune, to read in AFR and not volts. There is a note in the Project Properties description - "This is for a different AFR reading - now read AFR and not VOLTS". Of course, I don't know what has been changed.

      So, I have no idea if he changed the .ini files to work with that option. I saved a copy of the tune and then switched to the project to "AEM UEGO/Linear AEM-30-42XX" option, however the AFR table was still in volts. So, not sure what to do next.
      Last edited by Dubrunner; 07-26-2012 at 09:21 PM.

    8. Geriatric Member need_a_VR6's Avatar
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      07-26-2012 10:06 PM #33
      You will have to reload an old tune and export an afr table and then import it into your current tune.
      -Paul
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    9. Member Dubrunner's Avatar
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      07-27-2012 01:04 PM #34
      Quote Originally Posted by need_a_VR6 View Post
      You will have to reload an old tune and export an afr table and then import it into your current tune.
      Do you mean re-load the old tune on the MS on the car itself, and then export the table

      or

      Open up the old project and export the AFR table. Then, close old project, open current project (with incorrect EGO settings that have been changed) and then import that table into the new project?

      I tried the later way and the AFR table came in the same way. Also, in the old project (with correct EGO controller), allowing the Lambda Settings to use the AFR table results in an AFR table in volts as well. I'm not sure what is going on or if I should just open a new project, import the fuel/spark tables, starting from scratch. Cripes, I might as well do Alpha-N then!

    10. Geriatric Member need_a_VR6's Avatar
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      07-27-2012 05:02 PM #35
      You can just do it all offline. Just open an old tune that had afr not in volts, export that using the little green arrow in tha afr table. Open current tune and import that one back in.
      -Paul
      1995 GTI VR6 - Retired - 12.90@106 R32 power - 12.833@106 12v power
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    11. Member Dubrunner's Avatar
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      07-27-2012 05:40 PM #36
      Ah okay, so that is the problem. The old tune is showing the AFR table in volts as well (when I engage it). I have the correct EGO setting (linear) on the old tune and still the AFR table shows in volts.

      Hmm, that means something needs to be changed somewhere deeper in the settings to get those to work correctly. OR, I guestimate with the AEM conversion chart in front of me for voltage and change/edit those in the new tune to match the AFR measurement I need.

      Man, this is difficult!

      I guess if it was easy, everyone would do it.

    12. Geriatric Member need_a_VR6's Avatar
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      07-28-2012 08:38 AM #37
      I have an itb tune on msruns, dow load it and export the table from that.

      Afr will show in volts always if you had ever had a non-supported wb in project settings. Just change yhe project and import an afr table thats in afr and you are good to go.
      -Paul
      1995 GTI VR6 - Retired - 12.90@106 R32 power - 12.833@106 12v power
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    13. Member Dubrunner's Avatar
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      07-28-2012 11:52 AM #38
      Quote Originally Posted by need_a_VR6 View Post
      I have an itb tune on msruns, dow load it and export the table from that.

      Afr will show in volts always if you had ever had a non-supported wb in project settings. Just change yhe project and import an afr table thats in afr and you are good to go.
      Awesome man, thank you! I'll take a look and see what kinda table you got going on there.

      However, researching most of last night, I found that NO AFR table was going to show in AFR's on my Project unless I dug deeper in the projectCfg file. This was because of the way the AEM was setup as default in TS and MegaTune. I recommend anyone using an AEM 30-4100 or 4200, to follow the link below if they are having the same trouble:

      http://www.miataturbo.net/megasquirt...t-table-28005/

      I use TS, so I had to fumble around a bit from the above link, but found where I needed to change the above parameters:

      1) Go to your TunerStudioProject Folder. Mine was under my My Documents folder on my PC
      2) Locate the Project you're working in > choose the projectCfg file
      3) You'll see the mainController file
      4) Once you have that open in NotePad or a text editor - you can then follow the steps in the above link to get your AEM to run AFR.

      Looking in the mainController file, I found clearly that my AEM was set to read in VOLTS for the Target AFR table in the list here:

      page = 7 ; TARGET AFR table 1 BINS FOR VE 1 (First find which sensor used)

      I made the highlighted changes (in red) and "voila", when I opened my Target AFR table, it was all zeros, but I was able to enter AFR's in there. OH happy day!

      Now, I cannot vouch for the lower or last part of the instructions as I could not locate a "lambdasensors.ini" file. So, we'll see how things go.

      need_a_VR6 - I'll try searching around for your AFR table and see about importing that and then set my Step and Controller Authority, and see what happens. I now have the car here at 3600ft, so I can start testing and seeing how it goes. Right now the car idles at about 600rpm when warm, which is about 360 lower than normal. So, obviously something in the elevation is affecting it. I'll report back as soon as I have a chance to import the new table and settings on the MS itself.

      Thanks!

    14. Member Dubrunner's Avatar
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      07-28-2012 12:02 PM #39
      Quote Originally Posted by need_a_VR6 View Post
      I have an itb tune on msruns, dow load it and export the table from that.
      I must have tried 20 times to search for your name and for an ITB tune, but with the search literally being a piece of poop and showing (Sorry but you cannot use search at this time. Please try again in a few minutes.) - I started banging my head.

      Have any idea where I might find in that mess they call a search function?

    15. Member ps2375's Avatar
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      07-28-2012 01:16 PM #40
      Go to the MSruns.com forum, for VW and look on second page, look for Paul_VR6
      Tradition is the art of making the same mistake repeatedly, on purpose.

    16. Member Dubrunner's Avatar
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      07-28-2012 05:02 PM #41
      Excellent, thanks man!

      I snagged this one as it's pretty damn close to my specs ---->

      And this one as it was ITB (even though it looked to be 8V) ----->

      Next up - lets see if I can't see some differences at this altitude. Closer and close, guys, thank you much.

      If this doesn't work, I "may" try the AlphaN route.
      Last edited by Dubrunner; 07-28-2012 at 05:09 PM.

    17. Geriatric Member need_a_VR6's Avatar
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      07-28-2012 05:09 PM #42
      Email me at kandpperformance at gmail dot com and I can send it.
      -Paul
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    18. Member Dubrunner's Avatar
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      07-28-2012 10:47 PM #43
      Sent - thank you, Sir!

    19. Geriatric Member need_a_VR6's Avatar
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      07-29-2012 09:25 AM #44
      I sent the afr table. You will want to rescale the load axis to work with your tps or map range.
      -Paul
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    20. Member Dubrunner's Avatar
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      07-30-2012 09:33 AM #45
      I sent the afr table. You will want to rescale the load axis to work with your tps or map range.
      Roger that - I received it and loaded it up into my .msq as it was. I'll look more closely at the MAP range to see that its scaling correctly. It looked pretty close to start.

      I then loaded the new map (with new EGO settings) to the MS and the AFR's are reading accurately between the gauge and MS now. The car started a bit harder than before, looked super rich and the idle was quite low. Took a bit of pedal work, but I was able to get it past its 15 second warmup then received a steady, albeit low, idle. I'm wondering if I need to adjust the idle bolt for this elevation or if there is a way I can get that to sit better. Could be the Target AFR table as well. It seems quite inconvenient to need to adjust the idle for elevation, but such may be the nature of ITB's (I would think not).

      Otherwise, I need to take it for a spin and see how the EGO correction and Target AFR table is affecting the higher altitude driving. Fingers crossed I have less bucking and sputtering.

      I'll report back later. Thanks again everyone!
      Last edited by Dubrunner; 07-30-2012 at 09:39 AM.

    21. Member Dubrunner's Avatar
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      07-30-2012 07:34 PM #46
      Went for a drive today and it sure didn't want idle more than 700 (even warmed up). The idle is set to 960rpm at idle at sea level, so I'm not sure what is going on there.

      I have this wicked, half-3/5 part throttle leanness happening (which caused bucking and hesitation before at altitude). Its continued to do this although not as bad now that EGO Correct is on. It affects the acceleration up hills and to get up to speed on straights - bucking, hesitating, etc - like either it retards the timing hugely, or is just WAY too lean in that area. If I let off the throttle part way or push quickly down on the gas to accelerate (basically modulate the throttle), the AFR's go richer and I can then accelerate, until the pedal reaches a certain point or around 3000rpm. Almost like a clogged fuel filter effect. I looked at the VE and AFR tables and they sure seem to be giving enough fuel at those RPM and Map points. I didn't get a log, but will go out again and record one. Either my msq sucks or something else is going on.

      Here is my msq as of now:

      CurrentTune7302012.msq

      I've double-checked the timing in the MSQ, and will have to try the timing light procedure again, but I'm positive I'm where I need to be. I'm starting an Alpha-N tune offline now to see how difficult that is to put together.
      Last edited by Dubrunner; 07-31-2012 at 09:29 AM.

    22. Member ps2375's Avatar
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      07-30-2012 07:44 PM #47
      I don't remember if you have TS, but if you do, set the VE Analyze to "Easy" drive it, then go thru each setting and see what it does and how it drives. I'll bet it'll help. Don't be afraid of the #'s it generates, unless it goes too far rich or lean, then you have something else going on.

      And if you don't have a licensed copy, get it, it's well worth it.
      Tradition is the art of making the same mistake repeatedly, on purpose.

    23. Member Dubrunner's Avatar
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      07-31-2012 09:37 AM #48
      Yep, I'm using TS and a full copy with VE Analyzer is on the way. Hopefully, that will get me set a bit. That is, AFTER I replace the gasket between the water pump and housing (gah), just started to drip yesterday - I've only driven the car 500 miles since assembly!

    24. Geriatric Member need_a_VR6's Avatar
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      08-01-2012 04:02 PM #49
      Can you take a log with that exact tune once you get mechanicals back in order?
      -Paul
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    25. Member Dubrunner's Avatar
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      08-02-2012 09:11 AM #50
      Absolutely! I'd love for you to have a look at the logs and what the heck is going on in the middle range there. I'm hoping that you find some good stuff in Frechem's tune as well so that maybe we can all learn a bit more on how to dial in MS1, Speed Density, and ITB's at altitude!

      PS: Waterpump has been ordered as well as more coolant (I'm not looking forward to replacing most of my brand new coolant, either)

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