Higher altitude issues with MS1 tune on 16V ITB

[need_a_VR6]

If you switch to alpha n like I tell you all to do you can use the main map for baro

[ps2375]

If you switch to alpha n like I tell you all to do you can use the main map for baro

That was suggested back on page 1.

[Dubrunner]

If you switch to alpha n like I tell you all to do you can use the main map for baro

"I'm your Huckleberry" - I don't mind trying an AlphaN map.

I think my fear is that I'll change this over to alphaN and then have a hard time getting it dialed in time to drive 180 miles (safely)! Can I still run AlphaN with the HR10 code? (seems I can, even though that version is a bastard-child anyway). I suppose I can export my fuel and spark map, than create a new Tune for AlphaN, then import those tables -yes? Its worth a shot as I don't really have a choice under the time crunch.

The MapDaddy looks pretty good for $65 bones, not a whole lot of soldering and it seems pretty easy (just need the .22uf capacitor for MS1). I just don't have the time resources at this point.

[need_a_VR6]

Map daddy comes w the cap.

Just save the tune, switch the load in engine constants and in the project, rescale the load axis to useful tps % and go out and tune it.

[Dubrunner]

Map daddy comes w the cap.

Just save the tune, switch the load in engine constants and in the project, rescale the load axis to useful tps % and go out and tune it.

I've built many cars and weird projects, but definitely am not a SEM tuner. I'm assuming you're talking about rescaling the VE table load axis to use TPS instead of Map. I'll get it all setup and see if it runs now.

[Dubrunner]

I may also peruse MSRUNS to see if you might have a good starting point for AlphaN.

With all those setting changed, now the load axis reads TPS, but its in ADC (wtf?). Any idea on how to get the % on there? Maybe I have to go deeper into the config settings?

[need_a_VR6]

Just change the bins live, move the throttle see where it goes and put bins where it makes sense.

[Dubrunner]

Regretfully, I have thrown in the towel to make it to this show.

No worries on your end, Paul. If the current tune just isn't going to work, then the only option is the MapDaddy or AlphaN. Working on it last night, I didn't have time to finish the AlphaN tune with live TPS inputs to the bins and test drive it. I would have to leave tomorrow afternoon.

Anyway, I'll keep plugging away at it and see what luck comes in the next day. I do appreciate all the help and advice!

[need_a_VR6]

Honestly crank ego to 50% and go for it.

[Dubrunner]

Honestly crank ego to 50% and go for it.

Say what now?

Crank the EGO "controller authority" or "step size" to 50% - ?

I hadn't tried that, but I can!. My Target AFR table is kinda estimated, but with 50% correction, I don't think it'd matter.. haha!

[ps2375]

Authority, leave the step size at a reasonable amount.

[ValveCoverGasket]

My Target AFR table is kinda estimated, but with 50% correction, I don't think it'd matter.. haha!

definitely wont with that much authority!

whatever you can do to get it closer beforehand would help, but if you take it easy on the drive over it oughta be fine...

[need_a_VR6]

Yep you can even get slick and leave autotune all the whole time and watch the tune change as you go.

[Dubrunner]

definitely wont with that much authority!

whatever you can do to get it closer beforehand would help, but if you take it easy on the drive over it oughta be fine...

The problem wasn't taking it easy, but that the car wouldn't rev past 3K without bucking and hesitating, so I'd shift down or feather the gas to keep up momentum up the hills. But, at less than 20mph, it was just dangerous to be on the roads. Of course, that was before having the EGO correction on with the target AFR table. I suppose a drive with Autotune the whole way would do the trick. I wonder if I was able to get rough TPS load measures for the VE table and let Autotune have its way, if that would yield better results as well?

[Dubrunner]

Hey all,

Just thought I'd update this thread. I purchased and installed the MapDaddy on Tuesday, triple-checked the continuity in my solder joints, and installed the ECU yesterday.

Result:

Followed the changes on the DIY site (per my HR10 code), all seemed to be fine. Prayed and then cranked it over. Engine started and idled crappy (as it usually does without an ISV on ITB's). Let it warm up and gave it a few revs > bounced off of full lean each time from idle. Well, this wasn't encouraging. I decided to check all the settings in the tune while it idled. Put it in reverse and it bogged like a mofo with any load. Could get it to move, giving it some revs in first and taking off > bogged again until it got some momentum. I noted there HAD to be something off. Pulled it back in the driveway.

Went through the project settings in TS (TunerStudio) and YEP, for some reason, the MPXH6400A – MPXH6400 – 400 kPa change did not hold in the Project itself, it was still reading the old sensor. Quickly changed that and reset the MS.

Turned the key on and a comparative chart came up with 15 differences. Apparently, the new Map sensor decided it wanted to change a few things. Namely, the map range in the y-axis of the tables and a few other parts that I never had selected anyway (given my setup). After nervously sitting there for a few minutes, I accepted the changes.

Started the car, surprisingly it idled better, didn't lean out when I revved it - so that was fixed! YEAH. Now to test drive. Running through 1st gear up and once into 3Krpm under slight load - bogging and lean - AGAIN! I continued my drive and each time, there was a dead spot around that range and there wasn't quite the power it had at sea level. Otherwise, I actually could get up the hill and to speed, if I didn't "smash" on the throttle too hard in that RPM range.

Verdict:

It runs slightly better, but not enough to justify the $70 (so far). Now, I may be missing something in the setup (or screwed it up by accepting the project changes) or need to update the Map range in those tables, but it should have been working better than this. I'm about ready to just say "screw it" and go AlphaN.. or put it on Autotune and let it go. I'm going to go out and make a new log with this setup and maybe post it here for the guru's to peruse. Otherwise any suggestions from those who have used the MapDaddy?

[ValveCoverGasket]

maybe its already come up, but how are you sampling the MAP?

i ran into an issue recently dynoing this car


that led us to add a welding tip into the map signal line (this is after using the existing toyota MAP sampling manifold that sort of blends all 4 cylinders through small-ish orifices already)
he was getting enough MAP noise at high rpms to jump all over the map and cause stumbles in those areas.

[Dubrunner]

maybe its already come up, but how are you sampling the MAP?

i ran into an issue recently dynoing this car


that led us to add a welding tip into the map signal line (this is after using the existing toyota MAP sampling manifold that sort of blends all 4 cylinders through small-ish orifices already)
he was getting enough MAP noise at high rpms to jump all over the map and cause stumbles in those areas.

I've actually watched the updates of that car on the SpitfireEFI site. Ethan actually setup this tune while I was in Portland in early June and the car would seriously rip. I'm supposed to send him pictures for the site, but haven't gotten the damn running issue sorted! So, I'm not sure why, in altitude, I'm having such a hard time when I've been chipping at all the ways to remedy it.

I sample the Map signal off of the vacuum line going to the brake booster IE: four nipples - four equal length pieces of vacuum tubing - to four 1/8 nipples in a 12x1" diameter steel pipe (vacuum storage) - that then has a 5/8" tube going to the brake booster. About 8" before the brake booster, I have the Map signal T'd in. Its basically the same principle as Frechem's. At sea level, I didn't seem to have any issue in that rev area.

What size welding tip did you use?

[frechem]

What size welding tip did you use?

I used a .035" tip about .250" in length.

[ValveCoverGasket]

I've actually watched the updates of that car on the SpitfireEFI site. Ethan actually setup this tune while I was in Portland in early June and the car would seriously rip. I'm supposed to send him pictures for the site, but haven't gotten the damn running issue sorted! So, I'm not sure why, in altitude, I'm having such a hard time when I've been chipping at all the ways to remedy it.

I sample the Map signal off of the vacuum line going to the brake booster IE: four nipples - four equal length pieces of vacuum tubing - to four 1/8 nipples in a 12x1" diameter steel pipe (vacuum storage) - that then has a 5/8" tube going to the brake booster. About 8" before the brake booster, I have the Map signal T'd in. Its basically the same principle as Frechem's. At sea level, I didn't seem to have any issue in that rev area.

What size welding tip did you use?

awesome, yeah i seem to remember ethan calling about a tune on an itb 16v. definitely send some pics over when you get it sorted

the tip we used was either 35 or 38.... whatever the dyno guy tossed us when we said we wanted to try it. i forget exactly but either will be sure to give you smoother results than what youre seeing.

[Dubrunner]

I used a .035" tip about .250" in length.

Thank your sir, I'll see if I can track one down!

awesome, yeah i seem to remember ethan calling about a tune on an itb 16v. definitely send some pics over when you get it sorted

the tip we used was either 35 or 38.... whatever the dyno guy tossed us when we said we wanted to try it. i forget exactly but either will be sure to give you smoother results than what youre seeing.

^ Yeah, I'm working on getting her all cleaned up from the dust its been subject to in the garage, then hopefully I can get some good shots. Ethan did a bang-up job, just wish I would have known about this altitude poop before, so I could have installed the MapDaddy and sorted this out! I'll try the welding tip as it can't hurt!

Thanks again for the insight, fellas!

[Dubrunner]

Wow, this .035 welding tip is quite larger than I thought - like 1/4" in diameter! Not sure how this will go into a vacuum line, but maybe I can build some sort of reducer for it or shave it down. Looks like it might fit in the 5/16" hose to the booster, but this should probably be isolated in the direct Map line. ???

*** Nevermind - looks like it will fit perfectly (with some force) right after the T from the brake booster to the Map. Unless, I should put it right near the map sensor itself (inside the car)?? Not sure if this will solve the problem, but fingers crossed it helps.

[need_a_VR6]

It can go anywhere in the map line. I have turned them down befpre but I usually just use force!

[Dubrunner]

It can go anywhere in the map line. I have turned them down befpre but I usually just use force!

I ended up forcing it inline in a inconspicuous spot, with little hassle.

1st) Checked that baro gauge and Map gauge in TS matched (to be sure the Map Daddy and sensor were working correctly) - ignition key on - engine off. They were within 1 point.

2nd) Started car. Right off the bat I noticed the car idled differently and it was running a whole point richer than usual - odd I thought. Let is warm up a bit then gave it some revs - hmm, no dipping into the lean area - this is promising.

3) Took it our for a spin and noticed right away up to 3000 was good, into 2nd gear. Happily, I pushed the gas down to rapidly go up the hill into 3rd. As soon as I reached a certain load (again at just about 3500) - bogging and hesitation, and bouncing of the bottom of lean. DAMNIT!

I was able to get around better at this altitude, getting up to speed without going super lean, but not being able to put a moderate load on the engine in the 3000-3500 rpm region, really made it slow. Every time I would slowing accelerate and then mash it for load, the car would buck and hesitate.

Now I'm beginning to think its the map. However, it worked perfect at Sea Level, so I really have not idea. Next mission is to make some logs and then see if the VE Analyzer/autotune can help. Otherwise, I can't seem to wrap my head around why the issue with the hesitation and bogging under moderate-heavy load.

[need_a_VR6]

You did enable realtime baro in the software.. right?

[Dubrunner]

Basic Settings > Engine Constants 1 > Barometric Correction - ON..... yep!

More settings > Barometric Correction > Constant Baro Correction set to - Extra Map fitted to X7 ..... yep!

I double and triple checked the settings to be sure. Unless there is something I missed or maybe a way I can check its working, I'm not sure where else to look.

[frechem]

I just installed my mapdaddy and I am having the same issues. The car runs like butt.

Anyone have any ideas?

[ps2375]

Tune, settings or just go Alpha-n.

[frechem]

Tune, settings or just go Alpha-n.

OK would you mind looking at my msq and log for me then?

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/29118310/map_daddy-tweaked.msq

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/29118310/da...1212291211.xls

[ps2375]

I'm no expert, but when I pull out that laptop, I'll try and remember to look at your tune. But with the little time I spent tuning our 16V ITB motor, alpha-n definitely seemed more easily tuned.

[ps2375]

OK would you mind looking at my msq and log for me then?

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/29118310/map_daddy-tweaked.msq

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/29118310/da...1212291211.xls

If this car is not boosted, VE and Spark tables need to be rescaled for no more than 100Kpa. And the msq came up configured fr a narrowband O2 sensor, if that is the case, get a wideband.

[frechem]

If this car is not boosted, VE and Spark tables need to be rescaled for no more than 100Kpa. And the msq came up configured fr a narrowband O2 sensor, if that is the case, get a wideband.

OK I did change the VE and Spark range to coincide with my MAP reading of 100 with the key on. They did range from 100-45 but I thought that if the kpa was at 100 then the range should be rescaled accordingly.

Also, I do have a wideband and I thought I was set for that. I will have to go in and correct that.

*Edit* I am seeing it set up for a wideband. Where are you seeing it set for a narrowband?

[ps2375]

I opened the msq file in TS and that is what it came up with. Could just be a TS error.

[Dubrunner]

Just bumping this up for Mike and I.

This has been a frustrating endeavor and as I told Mike, I'm actually messing with creating an AlphaN tune based on my original map that ran well at 2500ft and under. The problem is, its a b*tch to switch Projects back and forth. I really wish there was a provision to swap projects without having to reformat it all each time. At the moment, I'm trying to have different projects open on two different laptops so I can compare when building the AlphaN tune.

[ValveCoverGasket]

Screenshots of the project you're trying to mimic is the easiest way I've found.

[Dubrunner]

Screenshots of the project you're trying to mimic is the easiest way I've found.

Yep, that is what I've been doing. I'm a bit anal retentive though and fear screwing stuff up, so I've been systematically taking a screenshot of each section (already did the VE and Spark tables) and/or writing each down as I go.

Again, the Autotune has made some improvements, but it still has that dead spot at about 3300rpm and moderate throttle.... it can't seem to make a map signal over 84kpa.... like it plateaus and stalls out.

I also noticed that if I hold the gas down in nuetral, say at a steady rpm... 1200rpm for example. My foot doesn't move, neither does the TPS, but the rpm will fluctuate in a "hunting manner" and the AFR's are not steady, again fluctuating from 13.7 to 16.7/17 and back. Like its hunting to find the correct AFR. I can replicate it while driving too. Say I'm at 2500 in 3rd on a flat area, hold throttle and the AFR's will fluctuate and not stay steady - again, like its hunting. Now, I don't know if that is the EGO correction freaking out, but I have it set way low.

AlphaN, you are looking like a welcome remedy.

If it wasn't so hard to switch back and forth, I'd just try it and see what happens -