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    Thread: Mr-16 LED

    1. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      07-23-2012 06:35 PM #1
      I'm astounded. I replaced a bunch of 20-watt spots and wide floods with 6.7 and 6.2-watt LED MR-16s and I have more light. They don't dim as low as the quartz lamps and don't flicker except at the bottom of the dimming range. I selected the warm-white over the cool-white as I like the look of an incandescent light for artwork.

      I bought a bunch of these in three beam widths, 8°, 25° and 35° to use in my outdoor lighting. At $22 each I could only justify using them outdoors as they are on 4,380 hours in a year. That amounts to something at 13-watts each. I couldn't bring myself to use them indoors as so few are used for any great length of time. The payback is outrageous.

      What pushed me over the edge was having to climb on a ladder to replace the lamps in a high ceiling room. That was it, I didn't care what the cost was I wasn't about to be out in the freezing cold or up on a ladder changing light bulbs anymore, even though that's how I make a living.

      However, I don't know how they'll ever take off at that price.



      I didn't show a brand name. I'm not shilling anyone's product.
      Last edited by barry2952; 07-23-2012 at 10:36 PM.
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      07-24-2012 12:19 AM #2
      I can't wait until LEDs come down in price to around the $8-10 range. For probably 10+ years I've been using 5 watt CFL R-20s for down lighting in my soffits. I run the dusk to dawn and there are 13 of them around the house, so going incandescent is out of the question. But those little sucker put out enough light at night to light up the walk around the house.

      Here are a couple of photos I took trying to get those nighttime realtor shots that you see in better real estate listings. Tough to do with a cheap point and shoot digital camera.




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      07-24-2012 02:50 AM #3
      beautiful home

      love a house with a crap load of big windows...

      i saw these lights at hd. but the price did turn me away.... great product...too rich for me tho

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      07-24-2012 03:42 PM #4
      I swear i just saw some of these on clearance @ Lowe's for under $7.

      I went home to find that i dont' have any fixtures that use them. I knew it was a good price.

    5. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      07-24-2012 04:00 PM #5
      You just made me go through every LED item at Lowes (621 of them) and there were no MR-16 with a 20-watt equivalent for less than $22.00. I wonder what you saw.
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    6. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      07-24-2012 04:05 PM #6
      The MR-16s don't work with my outdoor fixtures as they have electronic quartz transformers which appear to not be compatible. They work as long as I leave one of three lights as a quartz. If I replace all 3 none of them work. New LED power supplies on order.
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      07-25-2012 11:40 AM #7
      check ollies every now and then, i got a 14 led dimmable flood light bulb for 10 bucks. normal price is close to 30. you just have to catch them when they get them in because they go fast

    8. Member WRXGuy's Avatar
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      07-25-2012 01:24 PM #8
      I've replaced all of my landscape MR-16's with LED MR-16's-- took trial and error to find ones with the 'right' color value so that my Designer (aka my other half) didn't go "NO!". The only non-LED part of my landscape lights is more challanging-- wall washes that have a 20w bipin in them. I think I've found the right ones-- with those in place, my total wattage will go from 410w total (front and back yard) to something like 84w!!!!

    9. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      07-25-2012 05:07 PM #9
      Quote Originally Posted by WRXGuy View Post
      I've replaced all of my landscape MR-16's with LED MR-16's-- took trial and error to find ones with the 'right' color value so that my Designer (aka my other half) didn't go "NO!". The only non-LED part of my landscape lights is more challanging-- wall washes that have a 20w bipin in them. I think I've found the right ones-- with those in place, my total wattage will go from 410w total (front and back yard) to something like 84w!!!!
      So you have about 20 fixtures. If you went from a 20 watt bulb down to a 6-watt LED you've saved plus or minus 13 watts per lamp. That's 260 watts. Let's use your figure of 326. That's .326 kilowatts at $ .15 per kilowatt hour. For round numbers let's call it a nickel an hour in savings for all 20 fixtures. Let's assume they are on a photocell so they are on 4,380 hours in a year. That's $219 in annual energy savings. If you spent $22 a fixture on an LED retrofit bulb you'd have spent $440 and saved $438 in a two year period. Since the LEDs are now rated for 25,000 hours that a likely lifespan of 6 years between bulb changes, saving another $50 a year.

      If you do the math, it's the best investment out there. Spend $440 and get your money back in 2 years. Save an additional 4 years with no maintenance expense and save another $876, assuming rates won't go up. By spending $440 you get back $1,340 in 6 years. Then you'll spend $220 to replace them in 6 years (because the price will go down) and that $220 investment will pay out another $1,340 over the subsequent lifespan.

      Sounds to me as though LEDS have reached the price where they make sense for outdoor dusk to dawn lighting. Sounds like a far better investment than anything I've seen recently. I think that these things will put me out of business. Good thing I'm about to retire.
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    10. Member WRXGuy's Avatar
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      07-25-2012 06:52 PM #10
      Barry -- your #'s are close-- think I got the bulbs for an avg price of $10ea --- and you're right about it being 20 fixtures total. I don't run dusk-to-dawn... more like dusk to 1am. So the #'s are tweaked somewhat, but the payoff is BIG!

      About the only issue was finding MR-16's that had the "correct" color temperature for my Designer's eye-- think we hit the sweet spot around 3500k. Had more than a few missteps and got ones that were closer to 5k... nothing like uplighting a palm with a very 'blue/white' light to make us both go "Ewwwwwwwwww!!!"

    11. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      07-25-2012 07:44 PM #11
      I use 2700K lamps as they are closest to diffused sunlight and incandescent light. They are nearly indistinguishable from quartz MR-16.
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    12. Member WRXGuy's Avatar
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      07-26-2012 10:32 AM #12
      Quote Originally Posted by barry2952 View Post
      I use 2700K lamps as they are closest to diffused sunlight and incandescent light. They are nearly indistinguishable from quartz MR-16.
      Whats your source for these? I've had a heck of a time finding anything thats damp-rated in a color value that low!!

    13. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      07-26-2012 10:35 AM #13
      Garmin Is My Pilot.

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      07-26-2012 11:04 AM #14
      Have you ever taken a chance and tried the low cost LEDs from China sold on eBay? I've considered it but not bought any.
      Here is a sample of what I mean:
      http://www.ebay.com/itm/3W-4W-6W-9W-...item231eb947f9
      http://www.ebay.com/itm/6W-Mr16-12V-...item2573932e11

    15. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      07-26-2012 11:08 AM #15
      I've not, but I'm in the business and give a two year warranty on what I do. The warranty and liability exposure is too high for commercial use. However, for the average homeowner..........
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    16. Member zhenya00's Avatar
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      07-26-2012 04:59 PM #16
      Quote Originally Posted by spockcat View Post
      Have you ever taken a chance and tried the low cost LEDs from China sold on eBay? I've considered it but not bought any.
      Here is a sample of what I mean:
      http://www.ebay.com/itm/3W-4W-6W-9W-...item231eb947f9
      http://www.ebay.com/itm/6W-Mr16-12V-...item2573932e11
      I took a chance on one of the $4 G4 bulbs from ebay to try in our under-cabinet lights which use 24 10 watt halogens and are on a lot of hours every day. The one I got didn't quite fit, and when I tried to force it, one of the pins broke off. I can repair it, but I haven't bothered. I am looking forward to some quality bulbs coming available in this size for reasonable money though as they are only 2 watts apiece rather than 10.

      I have splurged on a few LED's for home bulbs. I have one basement light that is on pretty much 24/7 that I found an LED that I preferred over any CFL I've ever had in there, and I have a few of these Philips bulbs in places where I the lights are on many hours, but I also value the instant on capabilities of LED. They don't pay back very well, but their better behavior makes it worthwhile. These are the first nearly as good as incandescent LED I've seen.
      http://www.amazon.com/Philips-409904...ds=philips+led

      Home Depot typically has them at the cheapest price. Only downsides are they can't be used in fully enclosed fixtures (the silver is an actual metal heat sink, and despite only using 12.5 watts, it gets hot enough to burn you), they don't quite dim below about 15%, and they don't get the warm color of incandescents when dimmed (good or bad depending on your POV). Otherwise the color temperature, brightness (these are every bit as bright as a regular 75 watt bulb), omni-directional light output and speed to on is excellent.

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    17. Member WRXGuy's Avatar
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      07-26-2012 05:27 PM #17
      I've experimented with the eBay/Chinese MR16's with mixed results-- a few of them are too tall for my outside fixtures, while others die after a short time. But hey, for $5 or so...

      The best luck I've had are with the Phillips MR16's... got a stupid deal on them at HD, and cleared out their stock.

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      07-31-2012 03:53 AM #18
      I'm very interested in this, Barry. Most of the lighting in my condo is via Kable light which uses MR16 bulbs. My other fixtures use line voltage GU10 bulbs. One thing I love about the MR16 bulbs is the colorful light which escapes through the back of the bulbs. The LEDs would obviously do away with that.

      I've got ~38 MR16 heads in use and ~12 GU10 bulbs. Most are on for ~6 hours/day. I've wanted to add some additional heads to the Kable setup, but I'm running ten 20w heads on a 200w transformer already.

      Using LEDs seems like a no-brainer. I'll see how yours hold up.
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    19. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      07-31-2012 08:32 AM #19
      Quote Originally Posted by mikegilbert View Post
      Using LEDs seems like a no-brainer. I'll see how yours hold up.
      Won't know that for a very long time. Found out yesterday that a utility rebate may pay for 75% of my upgrade.

      I just ordered 45 more MR-16 and 27 R-20 LEDs. I had to order one low-wattage MR-16 for a specific application, but the 6.2-6.7 watt units really kick out some light.
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      07-31-2012 11:31 AM #20
      My front landscape lights (6 wall wash, 2 spots, 4 pathway) on one side are now 100% LED's-- had to swap out the old transformer for a new magnetic $40 one from Lowes, as the old one (600w?) had an issue where it'd turn the lights on at dusk, but not ever turn them off again. No matter what I set it to for an off time, it would never turn off.

      My other side of my front lights are 2/3 LED's... 3 wall wash fixtures. I put the LED's in all 3, only to have the transformer decide to flash them for me!! It was a pretty cool effect. I'm guessing (Barry, correct me if I'm off here) that the transformer was requiring a specific load to be seen, or it'd flip out. I put one of the 20w's back in, and left the other 2 as LED's-- its working fine now. Guess I'm now shopping for another transformer.

      Any idea why I'm seeing such odd behavior with that one transformer type? When I switch to the 'magnetic' type, all of these weird issues disappear.

    21. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      07-31-2012 11:50 AM #21
      It's because quartz electronic power supplies require a minimum wattage to work. I had the same problem. I just received some 60-watt LED-specific power supplies that are tiny, which is important as they have to fit in existing junction boxes. I'll let you know how they work.

      All of my indoor lighting has magnetic 50-watt maximum magnetic transformers, but some of the dimmers don't provide the range that they did before.
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    22. 07-31-2012 12:46 PM #22
      Quote Originally Posted by zhenya00 View Post
      I took a chance on one of the $4 G4 bulbs from ebay to try in our under-cabinet lights which use 24 10 watt halogens and are on a lot of hours every day. The one I got didn't quite fit, and when I tried to force it, one of the pins broke off. I can repair it, but I haven't bothered. I am looking forward to some quality bulbs coming available in this size for reasonable money though as they are only 2 watts apiece rather than 10.

      I have splurged on a few LED's for home bulbs. I have one basement light that is on pretty much 24/7 that I found an LED that I preferred over any CFL I've ever had in there, and I have a few of these Philips bulbs in places where I the lights are on many hours, but I also value the instant on capabilities of LED. They don't pay back very well, but their better behavior makes it worthwhile. These are the first nearly as good as incandescent LED I've seen.
      http://www.amazon.com/Philips-409904...ds=philips+led

      Home Depot typically has them at the cheapest price. Only downsides are they can't be used in fully enclosed fixtures (the silver is an actual metal heat sink, and despite only using 12.5 watts, it gets hot enough to burn you), they don't quite dim below about 15%, and they don't get the warm color of incandescents when dimmed (good or bad depending on your POV). Otherwise the color temperature, brightness (these are every bit as bright as a regular 75 watt bulb), omni-directional light output and speed to on is excellent.


      I have these philips bulbs. cheapest ive seen them go down to on amazon was $18 and I usually scoop up a few at that price. i am slowly changing all my bulbs in the house to LED.
      .:dubnoxious:.

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      07-31-2012 01:23 PM #23
      Quote Originally Posted by DantheVWman View Post
      I have these philips bulbs. cheapest ive seen them go down to on amazon was $18 and I usually scoop up a few at that price. i am slowly changing all my bulbs in the house to LED.
      I bought a couple of Philips non-dimmable A bulbs last year for the two lights that are on most often. I'm still waiting for prices to drop and dimming technology to improve before I replace all my halogen recessed lighting. The payback doesn't work for me. My electric bill is sub-$50.00 and that's running my mini-split A/C 24x7.

    24. 07-31-2012 03:37 PM #24
      The ones above are dimmable FYI. they actually go pretty low before they completely turn off unlike some.
      .:dubnoxious:.

    25. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      07-31-2012 03:40 PM #25
      I found out that all I need is some CFL/LED/incandescent dimmers, an update of the electronic dimmers I installed 20 years ago. I ordered 4 to try out.
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      07-31-2012 05:16 PM #26
      i'm watching this thread for knowledge.

      i sure could use some help with my electric bill, and this looks like the right place to start....
      shut your mouth. sh sh shut your mouth.

    27. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      07-31-2012 05:34 PM #27
      The math makes sense for exterior landscape lighting. I'm just not so sure about miscellaneous interior lighting. 16 of my lights are exterior and run dusk to dawn so I can base a payback on 4,380 hours use in a year. Interior lighting is much more random use, and significantly lower consumption to base a payback on.
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      07-31-2012 07:24 PM #28
      For my landscape lighting, I went from about 500w total, running from dusk until 1AM, to about 100w total running the same amount of time by moving to LED's.

      No, I don't expect my bill to drop by 4/5ths, but I do expect to see a difference.

    29. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      07-31-2012 07:41 PM #29
      Quote Originally Posted by WRXGuy View Post
      For my landscape lighting, I went from about 500w total, running from dusk until 1AM, to about 100w total running the same amount of time by moving to LED's.

      No, I don't expect my bill to drop by 4/5ths, but I do expect to see a difference.
      You're probably saving six or seven cents per hour of operation. That adds up.
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    30. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      08-03-2012 09:02 AM #30
      Quote Originally Posted by barry2952 View Post
      I found out that all I need is some CFL/LED/incandescent dimmers, an update of the electronic dimmers I installed 20 years ago. I ordered 4 to try out.
      Dimmers work great. They definitely let me lower the lights much more than the dimmers I had.
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    31. 08-03-2012 10:39 AM #31
      .:dubnoxious:.

    32. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      08-14-2012 11:28 AM #32
      OK, let's do the math.

      I have 16 outdoor landscape lights that were 20-watt wide, medium and narrow focus MR-16s. I replaced them with like-focus lamps that range from 6.2 to 6.7 watts each. They are about 20% brighter than the quartz lamps, but will lose output over time.

      16 times 20 equals 320 watts or .32 Kilowatts. A kilowatt of electricity is 1,000 watts consumed over one hour. With taxes and surcharges our rate is about $ .15 per kilowatt hour.

      Multiply $.15 by .32 to come up with an hourly operating cost of 4.8 cents per hour.

      The new LEDs have an average consumption of 6.5 watts or 130-watts total for an hourly operating cost is 1.9 Cents per hour for an hourly savings 2.9 cents per hour for the 20 lamps.

      That may not seem like much, but photocell-controlled dusk-to-dawn lighting operates 4,380 hours in a year at 12 hours per day average. That produces an annual savings of $127.02, not including lamp replacement costs. That works out to $6.35 per lamp per year. That's a 4 year return on investment without factoring in maintenance and replacement lamp costs.

      At $22 each the payback is 3.46 years. The lamps are rated for 5.707 years of use at 25,000 hours. That's 2.47 years of savings or $313 towards the purchase of the next batch, which should cost significantly less in 5.7 years, if past technology value is any indicator.

      In effect, the swap will pay for the initial investment and all future lighting maintenance costs. It's actually a far better return for your money than traditional investments or savings, IMO.
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    33. Member GreenandChrome's Avatar
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      08-14-2012 06:40 PM #33
      Quote Originally Posted by barry2952 View Post
      OK, let's do the math.

      I have 16 outdoor landscape lights that were 20-watt wide, medium and narrow focus MR-16s. I replaced them with like-focus lamps that range from 6.2 to 6.7 watts each. They are about 20% brighter than the quartz lamps, but will lose output over time.

      16 times 20 equals 320 watts or .32 Kilowatts. A kilowatt of electricity is 1,000 watts consumed over one hour. With taxes and surcharges our rate is about $ .15 per kilowatt hour.

      Multiply $.15 by .32 to come up with an hourly operating cost of 4.8 cents per hour.

      The new LEDs have an average consumption of 6.5 watts or 130-watts total for an hourly operating cost is 1.9 Cents per hour for an hourly savings 2.9 cents per hour for the 20 lamps.

      That may not seem like much, but photocell-controlled dusk-to-dawn lighting operates 4,380 hours in a year at 12 hours per day average. That produces an annual savings of $127.02, not including lamp replacement costs. That works out to $6.35 per lamp per year. That's a 4 year return on investment without factoring in maintenance and replacement lamp costs.

      At $22 each the payback is 3.46 years. The lamps are rated for 5.707 years of use at 25,000 hours. That's 2.47 years of savings or $313 towards the purchase of the next batch, which should cost significantly less in 5.7 years, if past technology value is any indicator.

      In effect, the swap will pay for the initial investment and all future lighting maintenance costs. It's actually a far better return for your money than traditional investments or savings, IMO.
      you hush up with your fancy new math and figures! that has no place on the internet!
      80 people! Do you know how much that is? Two 40s, you son of a b***h!
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