Busted front pump or just the pump seal?

[wmcraft]

I had removed my 4-speed auto in order to do a lot of engine work. Good thing is the engine purrs now, but I "might" have screwed something up when re-installing the trans.

While the transmission was out, I replace the front pump seal. The old one was quite worn, but intact.

On first attempt at re-installing, trans did not mate against engine well. tc was bound and would not spin. I never got as far as bolting it to the engine block. So I pulled trans and made certain that the tc was fully seated. Second attempt went smoothly.

I was able to drive the car for about 70 miles this past weekend, with good performance. The transmission went into gear properly and shifted like it always has - good. But the next day, I noticed that it would take a bit to engage first - jerking a bit when I gave it gas. Yesterday I pulled it into the garage thinking I was just going to need to add some fluid - since I did loose a little bit when I was messing with the TC on re-install.

However, I noticed a red/pink drip every 5-6 feet coming up my driveway. Yup, it's leaking fluid from the bellhousing area.

I've read lots of posts here and on other sites about lubing the seal with ATF. I did that. I did not however rub any on the sealing surface of the TC before putting that back in. And I did that on the first attempt at installing, but not on the second.

Soooo... What are the changes that I just eff'd up the seal versus damaging the front pump? I don't know a lot about transmissions, but from what I've read, a damaged front pump would have some other type of symptom, such as not building pressure to engage gears even when filled with fluid; or making a lot of noise on startup.

I plan to try this yet a third time this Saturday. Just want to make sure I know what I'm looking for and covering all bases so that I can make this the last time I do this :-)

Tnx

[wmcraft]

Is there a better place for me to ask these questions?

[CoolAirVw]

Your gonna have to pull it out to visually inspect to know anything.

[wmcraft]

Here are some pics of the front pump. Since I don't recall what it looked like before, I'm hoping someone can confirm that I did in-fact damage two of these slots. The front seal was intact, and didn't appear to be damaged. I removed it anyway and have a replacement on-hand, unless I need to replace this front pump.

If these nicks are damage - is this enough to cause the fluid to leak out the seal? Am I right to assume that the pump is pressurizing the fluid and forcing it past an otherwise good front seal?

Click the images for a bigger view.

Thanks!

[wmcraft]

Got a deal on a used front pump from a 1998 Jetta 2.0 with the 01M trans. Not sure yet that it will work in my 2001 model with the VR6. The bolt pattern and at least one of the numbers stamped on the body match. Will compare when it arrives.

[CoolAirVw]

that first pic looks like there might be some damage. Are the lugs on the converter ok?

[wmcraft]

that first pic looks like there might be some damage. Are the lugs on the converter ok?

The converter looks ok - both tabs/tangs are still there and not bent. I didn't put a lot of pressure on it, but it does appear to have been enough to put those dents right next to the slots in the front pump.

When it was full of fluid, it shifted gears fine. But leaked down within a weekend. I recall hearing a some noise on the highway that I thought was from messed up alignment, but now I'm thinking it might have been a little bit of wobble from the torque converter. it clearly wasn't in all the way. Close, but not all the way.

[CoolAirVw]

flywheel could be bent. Pump bushing could be damaged.

[wmcraft]

flywheel could be bent. Pump bushing could be damaged.

I'll take a look at the flywheel tonight. I had to reinstall that too since I had the timing covers off.

Do you think that front pump from the '98 01M w/2.0L will be fine in my newer '01 with VR6?

[wmcraft]

Flywheel looks ok. Spun the engine by hand and didn't notice any sort of wobble.

The used pump hasn't arrived yet. Once it does, do you know the torque value for the pump mounting bolts?

[CoolAirVw]

70 inch lbs + 1/4 turn.

[wmcraft]

70 inch lbs + 1/4 turn.

Perfect - thanks for the help and info. I'll post back once I make some progress.

[wmcraft]

Got the replacement pump and installed it this evening. I put the torque converter on, and only felt two "drops", so I'm not entirely certain it's fully seated. Is there a measurement of distance from the transmission-to-engine surface to the face of the TC, or maybe to the bolts on the TC? Just want to verify before I mess up another pump.

[wmcraft]

I think two drops is all I'm going to get.

However, I wanted to check on the seal and make sure all looked good before putting the trans back in. Now, I used a good amount of Vaseline and was very careful about putting the TC back into place. BUT, the rubber at the sealing edge still tore. So glad I thought to pull the TC and check again. I fished the original VW seal back out of the trash so I could compare.

It just doesn't seem right that I'm having so much trouble keeping fluid in the trans through this seal point.

Upon comparison, the Timken and National seals that I bought as replacements, and subsequently have had to trash don't have nearly as substantial a sealing edge as the original VW seal does.

I'm wondering if perhaps these online parts warehouses are selling seals that are really for manual transmissions? I say this because NONE of my local parts stores could get a seal for the 01M auto tranny. They all told me to go to VW.

So, I had to special order the seal. Hopefully will have it in before next weekend.

[CoolAirVw]

Here is torque converter install depth for 01m with tdi or 2.0L. Probably would be the same for other engines.

http://kansascitytdi.com/01m-torque-...stalled-depth/

You should post some pics of your seal problem.

[wmcraft]

Got the replacement seal (and front pump gasket too) from VW and did the installation today. Since I had a front-pump to mess with, I tore apart the old one to see if I could get an idea what part was damaged. Turns out it was on of the gears - the one that the TC tabs actually engage into. I set the gear onto the TC by itself and found out that the TC tabs were not going in - they couldn't. Somewhere along the line I must have hit one and bent it ever so slightly. I Tapped it with a hammer just a tiny bit and then the gear fit w/o problem. That also made the TC do a full three drops onto the NEW pump, already installed in the trans.

I'm posting pics below of the front seal. I still think the Timken and National seals (almost identical to each other (only Timken pictured) and are different enough from the OEM VW seal that it can make a difference. The VW sealing surface tapers to allow the bushing/sealing surface on the TC to slide into place. The Timken is a more abrupt surface, and in one of the pics you can see where the TC tore some of the rubber. Although I mangled the Timken a little removing it, that strip of rubber that tore lose was done by the TC. Also, the rubber that makes up the sealing surface is clearly thicker on the VW part than the Timken.

To check, I installed the TC today, and pulled it out a few times to see how the seal would hold up. The new VW seal does just fine - not nearly as finicky. For anyone who comes across this thread in the future, SPEND THE EXTRA $10 AND GET THE SEAL FROM VW!!!

Also, thanks for the measurement on the TC. I came across a PDF that appears to be a missing chapter of my Bentley. Not sure why, but mine skips from Chapter 30 right to Chapter 34 and excludes much info about the automatic trans, except for front seal replacement info. It includes measurements for both 4 cyl and 6cyl engines. My guess is that the trans case is slightly narrower in the VR6 cars to make a little more room for the engine block. Anyway, download that doc for your own safe keeping.

The VW seal is on the left (orange) and the Timken seal is on the right (black):











In this photo, that gear in the center of the gearset is the one that the TC tabs engage.



Here's where I have taken that gear out of the pump assembly and set onto the TC tabs to check fitment.



A close up of that gear showing the damage done when I installed the trans without fully seating the TC.



Measuring the installed TC for the proper seat depth.



The reading shows it to be just shy of 11/16" which translates to .6875", just slightly more than the spec'd depth of .6690"

[wmcraft]

CoolAirVW,

This car is still sitting up on jackstands as I try to figure this out. I recently decided to do a 5-speed swap, and have most of the parts I need. But I went back through my pics and noticed something that I missed before. If you look up at the pic I posted of the pump gear sitting on the torque converter, you might notice a friggin' bushing on the TC shaft. I recall seeing that and thinking it was part of the TC. Until I saw this thread... http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4601246

So, I put a used front-pump in, but the TC still has this bushing on it. No wonder it's still leaking.

[CoolAirVw]

How in the world did you get the converter in?

[wmcraft]

How in the world did you get the converter in?

Honestly, I have no idea. I didn't force it, yet it still ended up at the spec'd installation depth. I'm hoping to pull it out again in the next few weeks to take a look. I am wondering at this point if the replacement (used) front pump even had a bushing. Maybe it didn't. Is it possible that the 1998 version of the 01M front pump had a larger diameter bushing that would allow the old one to drop right inside? Or - long shot, the spec'd depth I found in the document wasn't correct. Perhaps it's actually supposed to drop in further.

I'll post back once I re-examine everything. I can't possible be the only fool to ever or that will ever run into this.

[CoolAirVw]

converter installed depth as per my website. Link below.

http://kansascitytdi.com/01m-torque-...stalled-depth/

[wmcraft]

Yup - pulled the trans (finally) today and there it is - nice brass bushing sitting right on the TC. Came off fairly easily with the help of a large prybar. I put the TC back in and it did drop further in this time. Too bad I'm resolved to do the 5-speed swap... not!

[CoolAirVw]

There aint no way that converter hub didn't take some damage. You could have bent the flywheel also.