automatic transmission fluid change and valve body cleaning

[stronglikebull]

i want to change my trans fluid and filter. the transmssion shifting is delayed on all gears. from reading my bentley, it's quite possible that the valve body and/or governor could be dirty. i have 3 questions:

1. if i drop the transmission pan to get to the valve body am i getting all of the old fluid out?
2. where is the governor located and how do i clean it?
3. is there anything else i should do while i have these parts off?

thanks in advance for the help

[stronglikebull]

well i just drained what i could from removal of the pan and gasket and strainer. definitely not 6 quarts. maybe a couple of quarts i'm going to measure in a minute. i decided i'm not going to take off the valve body to clean it. i would risk f'ing something up and i don't want to do that. if it still hesitates at each gear change, i'll take it back apart if i have to. also i'm still trying to figure out how to get the governer cover off...

[CajunSpike]

I know a lot of atf stays stuck in the torque converter.

My 92 car has the 2/3 upshift delay problem also.

Briano says to suck out two quarts...replace it. run it.

suck out two quarts thru the fill hole..replace...run it.

After you've done that 3 times..you've drained and filled six quarts which is about the full capacity...i think!

[briano1234]

1. if i drop the transmission pan to get to the valve body am i getting all of the old fluid out?
No. There is still fluid there is in the Torque Convertor.

2. where is the governor located and how do i clean it?

The Governor is under that black cap with the metal spring that sits on the top of the transmission. It is really nothing more than a flywheel with weights.


3. is there anything else i should do while i have these parts off?
The Valve body has a few itty-bitty ball bearings in it along with restrictors (washers with holes).
You can loose them very easily if you aren't careful. I wouldn't suggest taking the valve body apart unless you have the ATSG guide handy. You can pretty much flush it out with compressed air, and Brake-Kleen.

Delayed shifting can be caused by the adjustments on the cables also.

Since you won't be getting all the fluid out if you drop the pan, I would suggest this to exchange the fluid which is how I do it.

Using a Mighty-vac, a Vacuum Jar (large) and some vinyl tubing that will go in to the ATF dipstick hole.




This is a 1 quart jar with a lid, that I drilled 2 holes in it and you use one tube that is a inch below the top and one that is about 1/4 inch above the bottom. Glue it to seal where the vinyl hose goes through the lid top and bottom. One hose is about 3 feet long, and the other about 2 feet.

With the long hose that goes to the bottom I usually make it about 3 feet.

Insert that in the dipstick tube all the way to the bottom of your pan.
Using the Mighty-vac suck out all the fluid that you can, With a 1 quart jar you can then have a measure of what you take out.

Drop your Pan, and You can clean the filter with Brake-Kleen, and reuse it if it isn't too brittle.
Take the valve body loose, and use Brake-Kleen to blow the crud out. (if you have never done this, you will get fine black grit with fine metal filings.... which is normal, BIG chunks aren't.
that is Band and bearing wear.)

When you put it all back together, you will add the amount of fluid that you drained as clear.
You will then drive it around the block, and suck out 3 quarts of fluid and add 3 quarts of new.
Drive it around the block, suck out 3 quarts of fluid and add 3 quarts of new. This will flush out the torque convertor and refresh the fluid.

There is a separate fluid in the differential that is 90 weight, and there are the usual 17mm drain plugs for that. You can use a Lug bolt and a couple of nuts or a bolt with a couple of nuts to get it out.

[stronglikebull]

brian-
"2. where is the governor located and how do i clean it?

The Governor is under that black cap with the metal spring that sits on the top of the transmission. It is really nothing more than a flywheel with weights."


how do i get that spring thing off? can it be dirty and that's what's making my gear changes delayed?

[briano1234]

As you look at it the Governor is on the Top of the Tranny, towards the firewall side of the tranny there is a Black Circular cap with a metal spring clip over it.


Under that you will find a round metal plate with counter weights. That is the governor.

[stronglikebull]

As you look at it the Governor is on the Top of the Tranny, towards the firewall side of the tranny there is a Black Circular cap with a metal spring clip over it.



Under that you will find a round metal plate with counter weights. That is the governor.

i think i see it. my cap is silver colored, but it does have that spring thing. but how do i get the spring off? can there be grime in there keeping my gears from changing properly?

[briano1234]

That clip is easy to get off, Grab one of the sides with a pair of pliers, and pull it out of the keeper.
The the Cap as a "oh" ring twist and remove.

That shaft and come out, there are gears underneath.
It basically uses centrifugal force to measure the flow of fluid.
I have had them in and out (supposedly they are tuned to the Transmission and shouldn't be interchanged) but I haven't seen any difference in the shifting.

I would suspect that you need to adjust your Kick Down cable.

[Kevin Rowley]

Does anyone have any recommendations for fluids? Specifically the 90 weight oil for the differential and the ATF for the transmission? When all else fails, I generally fall back to Mobil1 products, but I'd like to hear if someone has had good luck with other options.

[briano1234]

I have been using Pennzoil DextronIII for the atf, and Lucas 90wt for the diff in both my trannys, with no ill effect.

[stronglikebull]

That clip is easy to get off, Grab one of the sides with a pair of pliers, and pull it out of the keeper.
The the Cap as a "oh" ring twist and remove.

That shaft and come out, there are gears underneath.
It basically uses centrifugal force to measure the flow of fluid.
I have had them in and out (supposedly they are tuned to the Transmission and shouldn't be interchanged) but I haven't seen any difference in the shifting.

I would suspect that you need to adjust your Kick Down cable.

thanks for the info. i'll try to adjust the kickdown cable. if you haven't ever found gunk and/or debris in your governor, i'm not gonna risk screwing up that o-ring by removing the governor on mine.

[theNamesRuss]

I'm going to try the 3 qts out, 3 qts in for a total of 9 qts.

I understand I am to use Dextron III

Trouble is, O'Reilly told me Dextron is no longer available and said the best that they could (or anyone could) do was something that indicates it is for vehicles that used Dextron III

But, to make matters worse, they told me based upon my having a Volkswagen, I should use their Dextron IV equivalent.

There is an O'Reilly brand Transmission Fluid available for vehicles that use Dextron III - Could I use that one, or should I, in fact, go with the one that's supposedly made for foreign vehicles and considered the equivalent for Dextron VI vehicles instead?

Man, they made this way confusing.

[briano1234]

From Valvoline's website.


Valvoline DEXRON®-VI ATF is formulated with premium synthetic base stocks and advanced additive technology, meeting and exceeding the requirements of the General Motors’ DEXRON®-VI specification. Valvoline DEXRON®-VI ATF can be used in new and old GM transmissions, is fully backward serviceable, and can be used wherever DEXRON®-II and/or DEXRON®-III are recommended.

* Officially licensed and GM approved
* Provides consistent shift performance for new and old GM transmissions
* Outstanding sludge resistance provides superior transmission life
* Provides excellent oxidative stability under severe conditions to keep your transmission shifting smoother longer
* For all General Motors cars and trucks that require DEXRON®-VI, DEXRON®-III and DEXRON®-II, and select import vehicles


From Castrol:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...MyZ4XRXGCbgCNw

[theNamesRuss]

From Valvoline's website.


Valvoline DEXRON®-VI ATF is formulated with premium synthetic base stocks and advanced additive technology, meeting and exceeding the requirements of the General Motors’ DEXRON®-VI specification. Valvoline DEXRON®-VI ATF can be used in new and old GM transmissions, is fully backward serviceable, and can be used wherever DEXRON®-II and/or DEXRON®-III are recommended.

* Officially licensed and GM approved
* Provides consistent shift performance for new and old GM transmissions
* Outstanding sludge resistance provides superior transmission life
* Provides excellent oxidative stability under severe conditions to keep your transmission shifting smoother longer
* For all General Motors cars and trucks that require DEXRON®-VI, DEXRON®-III and DEXRON®-II, and select import vehicles


From Castrol:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...MyZ4XRXGCbgCNw

I've already got this on hand, as I couldn't find either Valvoline or Castrol ATF at O'Reilly.

http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/de...0471&ppt=C0207


O'Reilly Transmission Fluid

* manufacturer's defect warranty
* UPC: 733704724032
* Dexron III-H/Mercon
* Quart

Detailed Description

O'Reilly Dexron(R)III/Mercon(R) and ATF F Automatic Transmission Fluids are manufactured with highly refined oils and performance additives to meet specific automotive manufacturers' specifications and performance requirements. They reduce wear or scoring of gears, clutch bands and discs and provide excellent friction control for smooth shifting and a cooler running transmission; maximum engine performance and protection at all operating temperatures.

* Outstanding resistance to oxidation, sludge and varnish deposits at extreme temperatures.

I hope this stuff will work, Briano1234

[theNamesRuss]

Actually, briano1234, the Castrol Website that I find using Google, doesn't have a "Castrol MP Dexron III/Mercon" ATF.

http://www.castrol.com/castrol/secti...tentId=7024042

Of the ones available in the link directly above, the "Castrol TransMax Dex/Merc" looks to be the only one close to the same specifications the Castrol MP Dexron III would have had.

What happened to Castrol MP Dexron III/Mercon? How come I can't find it when I go to Castrol website today? (the link for Castrol you posted earlier is basically a PDF down-loadable)

As to the Valvoline link, some are saying that using a Dexron VI is backward compatible to Dexron III, while others at O'Reilly are saying it isn't that simple, depends upon model and make. VW seems to want me to get the brown kind OEM. It's getting a bit confusing, briano1234, and I know the ATF is going to have to stay in my car a lot longer than motor oil, so, I want the best I can find here locally for my transmission... So far, O'Reilly only carried an O'Reilly brand that was definitely compatible to Dexron III. It's their "Premium ATF".

Autozone looks to carry the Castrol line, which I'm thinking of swapping out for. But, Autozone seems to only have the Castrol Transmax Dex/Merc --- Would that be like the Castrol MP Dexron III/Mercon you showed me (I can't find that specific one today, other than in the PDF you linked)

[theNamesRuss]

I need to get this project started since the weather is SOOOO nice today!

I've just decided to swap out the O'Reilly Premium ATF for the Castrol TRANSMAX Dex/Merc that I can find easily at Autozone. It is another Dexron VI, like the Valvoline briano1234 was also pointing to, and it says in the link below that it is also for Dexron III (just like what briano1234 quoted about the Valvoline VI being for Dexron III)

http://www.castrol.com/castrol/secti...tentId=7028225

The Castrol product I'm getting is not the Castrol MP DexronIII/Mercon stuff briano1234 told me to try in the PDF he directed me to, but I haven't had any great luck finding that particular stuff with the time I have.

Thanks!

Hope I'm not makin a mistake!!

Russ

[theNamesRuss]

I found a Mobil 1 product that declares it is Dexron III compatible. So, that's no longer a problem.

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lub...hetic_ATF.aspx



HOWEVER, BIGGER PROBLEM NOW!! --

I don't have a mighty vac. Am trying to use a turkey-baster sized syringe. It connects well to the hoses and while the hose was submerged in fluid, it pulled out the fluid well. But, the hose must remain submerged in ATF and now it's not! How would a mighty vac be any different? Wouldn't the hose need to say submerged for that too?

I cannot get the 1/4 inch plastic straw deep enough into the Transmission filler hole, apparently.

All I can pull out is about 3/4s of one quart, then my line goes dry. And that's it. NO way to pull any more out! I can't imagine trying to pull out about 1 quart, fill it back up by just one quart, run it around and then do that repeatedly for a total of 9 quarts???

How do I get the darn tube deep enough into the Transmission to successfully pull out THREE quarts worth instead?!!!

Could I go further into the Transmission if the gear was not in Park, perhaps?

DO I need to have the Trans in Neutral? The engine wasn't/isn't running before I started pulling out fluid, but do I need to set up for this process by putting it in neutral? What's keeping my plastic 1/4" tube from going the rest of the way into the transmission here anyway??!!


EDIT:

Alright. I just poured the 3/4s quart back into the trans and await further direction:

On a side note, I discovered that if you do not take into account your driveway's (or even garage's) slope for rain run off, you'll get quite a different reading on the stick than you probably should. SO, today I went around looking for a proper flat spot, found one and then topped off the Transmission fluid to the correct level this time (had apparently been a touch low as I park my car into the garage by backing in. This meant the nose was in a downward attitude and thus, the oil level higher looking than it actually was.) Now that I have all that sorted out, I'll go around with more fluid than I used to, but the correct amount this time.

[briano1234]

I found a Mobil 1 product that declares it is Dexron III compatible. So, that's no longer a problem.

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lub...hetic_ATF.aspx



HOWEVER, BIGGER PROBLEM NOW!! --

I don't have a mighty vac. Am trying to use a turkey-baster sized syringe. It connects well to the hoses and while the hose was submerged in fluid, it pulled out the fluid well. But, the hose must remain submerged in ATF and now it's not! How would a mighty vac be any different? Wouldn't the hose need to say submerged for that too?

I cannot get the 1/4 inch plastic straw deep enough into the Transmission filler hole, apparently.

All I can pull out is about 3/4s of one quart, then my line goes dry. And that's it. NO way to pull any more out! I can't imagine trying to pull out about 1 quart, fill it back up by just one quart, run it around and then do that repeatedly for a total of 9 quarts???

How do I get the darn tube deep enough into the Transmission to successfully pull out THREE quarts worth instead?!!!

Could I go further into the Transmission if the gear was not in Park, perhaps?

DO I need to have the Trans in Neutral? The engine wasn't/isn't running before I started pulling out fluid, but do I need to set up for this process by putting it in neutral? What's keeping my plastic 1/4" tube from going the rest of the way into the transmission here anyway??!!


EDIT:

Alright. I just poured the 3/4s quart back into the trans and await further direction:

On a side note, I discovered that if you do not take into account your driveway's (or even garage's) slope for rain run off, you'll get quite a different reading on the stick than you probably should. SO, today I went around looking for a proper flat spot, found one and then topped off the Transmission fluid to the correct level this time (had apparently been a touch low as I park my car into the garage by backing in. This meant the nose was in a downward attitude and thus, the oil level higher looking than it actually was.) Now that I have all that sorted out, I'll go around with more fluid than I used to, but the correct amount this time.

Yes, you have to be on the flat level.
From the Bentley/Haynes/ATSG guide. (sorry I sleep late on Sunday, so I am typing this 30 minutes after I woke, and prior to coffee.). Oh, I work nights.

Refill 3.0L us quart 3.2
Dry fill, that means that the torque convertor is empty
6.1 Liter 6.4Us quart.

So you can get all the fluid out from the body, you can't get the torque convertor drawn out.
I use a vinyl tubing that is at least 5/16 in to my vacuum collection jar, along with a Mighty-vac.
I use at least 3 foot of hose on the tranny side of the jar and I know it hits the bottom of the pan

So pull out as much as you can. You will have to do it more than I do.

[theNamesRuss]

If I pull out one quart's worth of fluid and then the tube gets air in it and cannot pull more fluid out, then that's got to be because the tube is no longer submerged in ATF.

If I cannot push the hose in deeper, would running the engine a tiny bit somehow fill the tranny back up so that I can get another quart out?

As you say, I need to pull at least three quarts out before refilling.

But, I am having quite a huge amount of difficulty getting anything more than about 3/4 of one quart. And that's it. I'll switch to a 5/16 hose and the Mityvac system, but if I cannot get anything but air after one quart, what do I do (short of disassembling the tranny)?

[stronglikebull]

If I pull out one quart's worth of fluid and then the tube gets air in it and cannot pull more fluid out, then that's got to be because the tube is no longer submerged in ATF.

If I cannot push the hose in deeper, would running the engine a tiny bit somehow fill the tranny back up so that I can get another quart out?

As you say, I need to pull at least three quarts out before refilling.

But, I am having quite a huge amount of difficulty getting anything more than about 3/4 of one quart. And that's it. I'll switch to a 5/16 hose and the Mityvac system, but if I cannot get anything but air after one quart, what do I do (short of disassembling the tranny)?

i guess you could always drop the pan and replace the gasket, screen, and that cardboard template thingy...when you drop the pan, you'll get most of the fluid out except what's in the torque converteri think. also you can clean the screen (if it's cleanable, and reuse it)

[theNamesRuss]

i guess you could always drop the pan and replace the gasket, screen, and that cardboard template thingy...when you drop the pan, you'll get most of the fluid out except what's in the torque converteri think. also you can clean the screen (if it's cleanable, and reuse it)

I'm leaning toward just taking the car to a trustworthy, non-game-playing mechanic (if I can find one).

In the meantime, I will get the 5/16 hose, the one-quart jar, and a Mityvac handpump vacuum, in the hope that recreating exactly what briano1234 has described will somehow produce better results. Although, to be honest, I don't see how those few changes will improve anything. I mean I know and believe that his system works, but I haven't been able to reproduce it thus far using somewhat similar processes with my car. (An over-sized syringe, 1/4" plastic tube, and a means to crimp the tube temporarily while I reset the syringe). I think there's something at the bottom of the fill tube, preventing me from getting the end of the tube far enough beneath the level of the ATF liquid.

Anyway, I'll set everything up just like how briano1234 describes to see if I can pull three quarts out instead of my usual portion of just one quart. If not, I dump the fluid back into the transmission once again, return the hundred dollars-worth of good synthetic ATF (before 90 days expires), and then take my car to someplace, somewhere where they'll work on it without giving me excuses about the exhaust mess I've currently got "being in the way" of transmission work. (cause that's impossible - and so I don't trust those guys anymore)

[theNamesRuss]

Okay. Even though I could only pull about one quart out at a time (actually a little less than that), I went ahead and figured how many times I'd have to do that to match briano1234's technique. (No matter how many tries I did, the line simply went dry after transferring out around 1 quart)

Basically, briano1234 removed half of the transmission fluid, then replaced it, ran it and pulled another half out and did that one more time; totaling 9 new quarts in 3 repetitions.

There's a math situation here that I could go into great detail describing, but I'll just cut to the quick (sort of):

Out of 6 quarts in the system, briano1234 pulls out half (3 quarts). In order to find the percentage of old oil left in the system, the math looks a bit like this: (3/6) raised to a number that is the total number of cycles performed. For him, he did this routine 3 times. So, it's (3/6) raised to a power of 3 for him.

Or (1/2)^3 is the amount of old oil left inside that when multiplied by 100 gives the percent value of 12.5 % old oil remaining. That is what briano1234 found was acceptable. So, using that as my goal, but only being able to remove 1 quart at a time with the same method, I found that in order to get a similar percentage of oil remaining, I had to do this 12 times!

It looks like this: I pull out 1 quart leaving 5 left inside; (5 of 6). So, my operation is:

(5/6)^12 which when multiplied by 100 gives me 11.22% remaining inside. About the same as briano1234 technique, but, again, I had to do this 12 times to get something similar!

So, unless you can truly pull out half the oil (3 quarts at a time), do it another way. Cause that be way unpleasant!

[stronglikebull]

interesting