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    Thread: 640WHP and 40MPG. Direct injection ftw.

    1. 07-31-2012 03:58 PM #1
      One of the tuners over at the COBB forums has been putting some effort into making big power, while still pulling close to 40MPG. The direct injection allows him to lean out the AFR at low load/crusing, without increasing EGTs/cylinder temps. I haven't seen proof, but from what I've read he seems to be a pretty reputable tuner. It's like having your cake and eating it too

      https://forums.cobbtuning.com/forums...st-plain-crazy!

      More discussion here: https://forums.cobbtuning.com/forums...7-Economy-Tune

      Direct injection really is the future.

    2. Senior Member VarianceVQ's Avatar
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      07-31-2012 04:05 PM #2
      I'm not an engine engineer but I'm thinking there has to be a good reason OEMs haven't done such a thing. So I'm going to take a wild guess and says "engine longevity" without any specific reason why outside of "something has to give with that setup".
      Esi ϟ Disi

    3. Member NOTORIOUS VR's Avatar
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      07-31-2012 04:06 PM #3
      No one builds a car like that to drive around like a ***** to say he gets 40MPG.

      A few quick pulls and you can kiss that 40MPG figure right out of the window.
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      07-31-2012 04:11 PM #4
      Quote Originally Posted by VarianceVQ View Post
      So I'm going to take a wild guess and says "engine longevity" without any specific reason why outside of "something has to give with that setup".
      thats my guess too

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      07-31-2012 04:18 PM #5
      Quote Originally Posted by VarianceVQ View Post
      I'm not an engine engineer but I'm thinking there has to be a good reason OEMs haven't done such a thing. So I'm going to take a wild guess and says "engine longevity" without any specific reason why outside of "something has to give with that setup".
      Emissions goes to **** really quickly - namely NOx.

    6. 07-31-2012 04:21 PM #6
      I get about 32mpg and could probably get 500whp on 93 octane. I also use about 2/3 gallon per minute at WOT though.

      Port injection.

      Soooo, who cares? Welcome to a well tuned engine?

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      07-31-2012 04:26 PM #7
      Quote Originally Posted by VarianceVQ View Post
      I'm not an engine engineer but I'm thinking there has to be a good reason OEMs haven't done such a thing. So I'm going to take a wild guess and says "engine longevity" without any specific reason why outside of "something has to give with that setup".
      Kia has a direct injection system on the Optima - or is this a different type of set up than that?

    8. Member cryption's Avatar
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      07-31-2012 04:28 PM #8
      How do they keep the intake valves clean?
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    9. 07-31-2012 04:31 PM #9
      Quote Originally Posted by cryption View Post
      How do they keep the intake valves clean?
      Italian tune-ups?

    10. Geriatric Member Chapel's Avatar
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      07-31-2012 04:33 PM #10
      how's the reliability on these Mazdaspeed3s anyway?

    11. 07-31-2012 04:37 PM #11
      Quote Originally Posted by VarianceVQ View Post
      I'm not an engine engineer but I'm thinking there has to be a good reason OEMs haven't done such a thing. So I'm going to take a wild guess and says "engine longevity" without any specific reason why outside of "something has to give with that setup".
      US Emissions standards keep them from doing this, like Shomegrown stated. In europe, some VW/Audis run 22:1 AFRs during cruise, but that creates a lot of NOx.

      Quote Originally Posted by NOTORIOUS VR View Post
      No one builds a car like that to drive around like a ***** to say he gets 40MPG.

      A few quick pulls and you can kiss that 40MPG figure right out of the window.
      Are you serious? Obviously MPG goes out the window at WOT. This car is a daily driver for the owner. Some people drive long distances in their daily drivers, so getting 40MPG while crusing and then stomping the go-pedal and having 640WHP on tap sounds pretty nice to me...

      Quote Originally Posted by cryption View Post
      How do they keep the intake valves clean?
      What does this have to do with lean burning? Intake valves will build deposits on any DI motor. Intake valve cleaning isn't that hard, but there are many ways to prevent it. WMI is one. Catch Cans and EGR deletes are another.

      Quote Originally Posted by ncsumecheng View Post
      I get about 32mpg and could probably get 500whp on 93 octane. I also use about 2/3 gallon per minute at WOT though.

      Port injection.

      Soooo, who cares? Welcome to a well tuned engine?
      Making +140WHP and still getting +8MPG is huge...
      Last edited by ABATurbo; 07-31-2012 at 04:39 PM.

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      07-31-2012 04:40 PM #12
      Quote Originally Posted by NOTORIOUS VR View Post
      No one builds a car like that to drive around like a ***** to say he gets 40MPG.

      A few quick pulls and you can kiss that 40MPG figure right out of the window.
      I know I would not drive like a granny with 640whp on tap. No way no how.
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      I said dance bitch. Dance.

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      07-31-2012 04:41 PM #13
      That seems excessive for FWD.
      Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
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      07-31-2012 04:46 PM #14
      Won't be complete without a whistler tip

    15. Member NOTORIOUS VR's Avatar
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      07-31-2012 04:56 PM #15
      Quote Originally Posted by slippinclutch View Post
      Are you serious? Obviously MPG goes out the window at WOT. This car is a daily driver for the owner. Some people drive long distances in their daily drivers, so getting 40MPG while crusing and then stomping the go-pedal and having 640WHP on tap sounds pretty nice to me...
      You know how I know you don't have a powerful car?

      I never said it's not NICE. But I don't see how 40MPG does anything when you build a high power car. It's just something that is never going to happen unless you only drive highway all the time anyway, and NEVER give it not even once.

      So again. It's a nice claim but having power on tap at all times especially that much means you're not caring about MPG's much.
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    16. 07-31-2012 05:01 PM #16
      Quote Originally Posted by NOTORIOUS VR View Post
      You know how I know you don't have a powerful car?

      I never said it's not NICE. But I don't see how 40MPG does anything when you build a high power car. It's just something that is never going to happen unless you only drive highway all the time anyway, and NEVER give it not even once.

      So again. It's a nice claim but having power on tap at all times especially that much means you're not caring about MPG's much.
      For a daily driven car this is ****ing awesome. Yes you will still get **** MPG when getting on it. But if you can get 40MPG when you're not beating on it instead of say 20MPG, why the **** not? or would rather have **** mileage when you're driving around town? Personally if I had to drive a car everyday, I think it would be pretty ****ing nice to get 40MPG when I wasn't beating on it and still have all of the power in the world when you want it. Even if you did to WOT all the time, all of the times you aren't, you'll be getting better gas mileage... Why is this bad?

      I don't understand why all of you seem to be like "who the **** cares", this is pretty much unheard of. It has nothing to do with the MS3 specifically. Any DI motor may be able to do this with proper tuning.
      Last edited by ABATurbo; 07-31-2012 at 05:04 PM.

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      07-31-2012 05:08 PM #17
      Quote Originally Posted by NOTORIOUS VR View Post
      You know how I know you don't have a powerful car?

      I never said it's not NICE. But I don't see how 40MPG does anything when you build a high power car. It's just something that is never going to happen unless you only drive highway all the time anyway, and NEVER give it not even once.

      So again. It's a nice claim but having power on tap at all times especially that much means you're not caring about MPG's much.
      Please tell me that your E36 is an M3 and what kind of power and fuel economy you're getting. I'm prepared to be enlightened.

      Quote Originally Posted by slippinclutch View Post
      For a daily driven car this is ****ing awesome. Yes you will still get **** MPG when getting on it. But if you can get 40MPG when you're not beating on it instead of say 20MPG, why the **** not? or would rather have **** mileage when you're driving around town? Personally if I had to drive a car everyday, I think it would be pretty ****ing nice to get 40MPG when I wasn't beating on it and still have all of the power in the world when you want it. Even if you did to WOT all the time, all of the times you aren't, you'll be getting better gas mileage... Why is this bad?

      I don't understand why all of you seem to be like "who the **** cares", this is pretty much unheard of. It has nothing to do with the MS3 specifically. Any DI motor may be able to do this with proper tuning.
      I care about 500+hp and 40mpg. Even more than that, I care that other people care, it gives me hope for the future of humanity.
      Lately I have been testing "tip-in events". Just the tip-in. Just to see how it feels. Response time is typically on the order of 2-3 seconds. Sometimes the injection timing is a little off...

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      07-31-2012 05:10 PM #18
      Quote Originally Posted by NOTORIOUS VR View Post
      So again. It's a nice claim but having power on tap at all times especially that much means you're not caring about MPG's much.
      I suppose my car doesn't have much power, but I certainly care about mpg's as well as power. Part of the reason is it's part of fully tuning a car. I also don't care to use all the power all the time. I lope around at low power levels all the time. Just because I have all that power doesn't mean I have to drain the tank and wear the tires as quickly as possible.
      Quote Originally Posted by apizzaparty View Post
      never thought once to use my lefty for the brake. sorry in my opinion it is dumb.

    19. 07-31-2012 05:29 PM #19
      There are sane people left in TCL, I was beginning to lose hope.

    20. 07-31-2012 08:05 PM #20
      I think this is awesome. I love the fact that i can cruise in my 420whp car and get 28mpg. I can imagine getting 40mpg even at this power level

    21. Member NOTORIOUS VR's Avatar
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      07-31-2012 08:18 PM #21
      Quote Originally Posted by Jason4 View Post
      Please tell me that your E36 is an M3 and what kind of power and fuel economy you're getting. I'm prepared to be enlightened.
      Its a 328 that is the process of being boosted. Again I don't care about MPG's with that car, but it won't be any worse then stock if I'm not on it.

      But I don't really understand what you're trying to get at. So maybe you should clarify your post.

      Quote Originally Posted by leaftye View Post
      I suppose my car doesn't have much power, but I certainly care about mpg's as well as power. Part of the reason is it's part of fully tuning a car. I also don't care to use all the power all the time. I lope around at low power levels all the time. Just because I have all that power doesn't mean I have to drain the tank and wear the tires as quickly as possible.
      My point is that car will never get 40 MPG unless he does an all out highway trip and never once goes into boost
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    22. Member hognhominy's Avatar
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      07-31-2012 08:22 PM #22
      Quote Originally Posted by curvedinfinity View Post
      Won't be complete without a whistler tip
      What does it sound like?

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      07-31-2012 08:31 PM #23
      Quote Originally Posted by gambit420s View Post
      What does it sound like?
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      07-31-2012 08:33 PM #24
      there always have been ways to get this combo, todays newest technology helps even more but!! at a cost. OEM's try to get the best performance spending the least money allowing a fair priced car with a good profit margin. direct injection is a big help, but has been causing problems with deposits, subaru's new 2.0 engine and others use port injection at lo power to keep valves cleaner than comes direct injection for power and knock resistance, it costs $$$ for this and OE's are CHEAP!!! thats why they try to cure the lame FWD issues with electronics and such rather than a real LSD!!!

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      07-31-2012 08:34 PM #25
      Quote Originally Posted by gambit420s View Post
      What does it sound like?
      Well... the whistles go woo.

    26. 07-31-2012 08:38 PM #26
      Quote Originally Posted by NOTORIOUS VR View Post
      Its a 328 that is the process of being boosted. Again I don't care about MPG's with that car, but it won't be any worse then stock if I'm not on it.

      But I don't really understand what you're trying to get at. So maybe you should clarify your post.



      My point is that car will never get 40 MPG unless he does an all out highway trip and never once goes into boost
      That is my point right there. The ability to go on a long highway trip and get 40MPG, while still being able to make 640whp, on the same tune by just pushing the gas pedal... C'mon man, are you just trolling at this point? What do you not get? No one ever said you were going to get 40MPG while youre at WOT/full boost... Who would expect that?

    27. 07-31-2012 08:45 PM #27
      Nothing impressive here IMO.

      Big Turbo 4 cylinder cars, that are tuned correctly almost ALWAYS get better gas mileage than stock.

      Why? Because the larger aftermarket Turbo spools a lot slower, and consequently isn't generating boost during anything below say 4-5000 rpm. No boost/ no fuel consumption.

      This is from experience. My BT cars have always gotten a few MPG more than stock. Its not rocket science..
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    28. 07-31-2012 10:16 PM #28
      Do Mitsubishi Evo's get better fuel efficiency once tuned as well? As they get pretty bad MPG stock.
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    29. Senior Member PineappleMonkey's Avatar
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      07-31-2012 10:30 PM #29
      They do improve, but not to 40mpg unless some serious tuning was done, I've never seen it.
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    30. 07-31-2012 10:31 PM #30
      Quote Originally Posted by *+NEIL*+DIAMOND*+ View Post
      Nothing impressive here IMO.

      Big Turbo 4 cylinder cars, that are tuned correctly almost ALWAYS get better gas mileage than stock.

      Why? Because the larger aftermarket Turbo spools a lot slower, and consequently isn't generating boost during anything below say 4-5000 rpm. No boost/ no fuel consumption.

      This is from experience. My BT cars have always gotten a few MPG more than stock. Its not rocket science..
      You're acting like this is a couple MPG better than stock... They tripled the horse power and improved the fuel economy by 15MPG... Thats huge...

    31. 07-31-2012 10:49 PM #31
      Quote Originally Posted by PineappleMonkey View Post
      They do improve, but not to 40mpg unless some serious tuning was done, I've never seen it.
      I'd be happy with a performance car getting 30mpg... 40mpg without any issues with reliability would be fantastic.
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      07-31-2012 11:02 PM #32
      Quote Originally Posted by Chapel View Post
      how's the reliability on these Mazdaspeed3s anyway?
      Pretty good. They inherited some issues from the Focus (poor engine mount design, proclivity for eating sway bar end links), and the shocks seem to wear quickly if used for track/autox work, but all in all, fairly solid.

      You'll hear "zoom-zoom-boom" stories (as the kids like to call them) from owners who have no mechanical sympathy or don't know how to properly modify a car, but in stock form, the engines are fine, less the typical direct injection issues (valve build-up and PCV adventures).

      Early cars had some defective high-pressure fuel pumps, too. Nothing like what BMW dealt with, especially since even some owners of cars with HPFPs didn't even notice there was a problem until they started tuning and were monitoring their fuel pressure. The very first batch of cars was recalled due to an improperly-torqued transmission mount, which led to engines literally falling off the driver's side mounting position. No bueno. Needless to say, Mazda took care of that very quickly.
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      07-31-2012 11:09 PM #33
      Lot's of dumb in here. A whole barrel full o' stupid.

      Not impressive? Never use it? Who are some of you? 40mpg and the ability to lay down 640hp? This can only be awesome. If you don't think so, something's wrong with you. You hate progress. Go join your grandparents at the next tea party rally and hang with your idiotic peers that hate modern society, or join the Quakers. Jesus Christ.

      My buddies '05 Mustang has a Kenne Bell 3.2 and puts down 540rwhp. It has the ability to also get 26mpg. Do any of you think he drives it at 10/10ths all the time? Of course not, sometimes it's on the freeway, not in boost and getting good mpgs. How can there be anything wrong with that? If he could attain 40mpgs you damn well better believe he's going to try for it. It's sometimes just as fun to be frugal as it is to roast tires.

      Once again, for the ump-teenth time, some of you TCL'ers amaze me with your incompetent nonsense and unceasing stupidity. Feeling that you need to broadcast these asinine thoughts for everyone to see is just the proverbial cherry on top of the retard sundae.

      This is clearly not aimed at those in here with level heads. I apologize for the rant, but I couldn't hold it in!

    34. 07-31-2012 11:53 PM #34
      Quote Originally Posted by VarianceVQ View Post
      I'm not an engine engineer but I'm thinking there has to be a good reason OEMs haven't done such a thing. So I'm going to take a wild guess and says "engine longevity" without any specific reason why outside of "something has to give with that setup".
      But haven't they been doing this? ULEV?
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      08-01-2012 02:19 AM #35
      Quote Originally Posted by NOTORIOUS VR View Post
      My point is that car will never get 40 MPG unless he does an all out highway trip and never once goes into boost
      So your point is that since that is only used occasionally, eff it? Hell, cut the power down significantly too because it's very rare that any driver will be at the right rpm at full boost to achieve 640 whp. Might as well get rid of your air bags and seat belts too unless you're in a perpetual state of crashing.
      Quote Originally Posted by apizzaparty View Post
      never thought once to use my lefty for the brake. sorry in my opinion it is dumb.

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