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    Thread: 640WHP and 40MPG. Direct injection ftw.

    1. Member ABATurbo's Avatar
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      07-31-2012 07:38 PM #26
      Quote Originally Posted by NOTORIOUS VR View Post
      Its a 328 that is the process of being boosted. Again I don't care about MPG's with that car, but it won't be any worse then stock if I'm not on it.

      But I don't really understand what you're trying to get at. So maybe you should clarify your post.



      My point is that car will never get 40 MPG unless he does an all out highway trip and never once goes into boost
      That is my point right there. The ability to go on a long highway trip and get 40MPG, while still being able to make 640whp, on the same tune by just pushing the gas pedal... C'mon man, are you just trolling at this point? What do you not get? No one ever said you were going to get 40MPG while youre at WOT/full boost... Who would expect that?

    2. 07-31-2012 07:45 PM #27
      Nothing impressive here IMO.

      Big Turbo 4 cylinder cars, that are tuned correctly almost ALWAYS get better gas mileage than stock.

      Why? Because the larger aftermarket Turbo spools a lot slower, and consequently isn't generating boost during anything below say 4-5000 rpm. No boost/ no fuel consumption.

      This is from experience. My BT cars have always gotten a few MPG more than stock. Its not rocket science..
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    3. 07-31-2012 09:16 PM #28
      Do Mitsubishi Evo's get better fuel efficiency once tuned as well? As they get pretty bad MPG stock.
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    4. Senior Member PineappleMonkey's Avatar
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      07-31-2012 09:30 PM #29
      They do improve, but not to 40mpg unless some serious tuning was done, I've never seen it.
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    5. Member ABATurbo's Avatar
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      07-31-2012 09:31 PM #30
      Quote Originally Posted by *+NEIL*+DIAMOND*+ View Post
      Nothing impressive here IMO.

      Big Turbo 4 cylinder cars, that are tuned correctly almost ALWAYS get better gas mileage than stock.

      Why? Because the larger aftermarket Turbo spools a lot slower, and consequently isn't generating boost during anything below say 4-5000 rpm. No boost/ no fuel consumption.

      This is from experience. My BT cars have always gotten a few MPG more than stock. Its not rocket science..
      You're acting like this is a couple MPG better than stock... They tripled the horse power and improved the fuel economy by 15MPG... Thats huge...

    6. 07-31-2012 09:49 PM #31
      Quote Originally Posted by PineappleMonkey View Post
      They do improve, but not to 40mpg unless some serious tuning was done, I've never seen it.
      I'd be happy with a performance car getting 30mpg... 40mpg without any issues with reliability would be fantastic.
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    7. Geriatric Member ByronLLN's Avatar
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      07-31-2012 10:02 PM #32
      Quote Originally Posted by Chapel View Post
      how's the reliability on these Mazdaspeed3s anyway?
      Pretty good. They inherited some issues from the Focus (poor engine mount design, proclivity for eating sway bar end links), and the shocks seem to wear quickly if used for track/autox work, but all in all, fairly solid.

      You'll hear "zoom-zoom-boom" stories (as the kids like to call them) from owners who have no mechanical sympathy or don't know how to properly modify a car, but in stock form, the engines are fine, less the typical direct injection issues (valve build-up and PCV adventures).

      Early cars had some defective high-pressure fuel pumps, too. Nothing like what BMW dealt with, especially since even some owners of cars with HPFPs didn't even notice there was a problem until they started tuning and were monitoring their fuel pressure. The very first batch of cars was recalled due to an improperly-torqued transmission mount, which led to engines literally falling off the driver's side mounting position. No bueno. Needless to say, Mazda took care of that very quickly.
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    8. Member konigwheels's Avatar
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      07-31-2012 10:09 PM #33
      Lot's of dumb in here. A whole barrel full o' stupid.

      Not impressive? Never use it? Who are some of you? 40mpg and the ability to lay down 640hp? This can only be awesome. If you don't think so, something's wrong with you. You hate progress. Go join your grandparents at the next tea party rally and hang with your idiotic peers that hate modern society, or join the Quakers. Jesus Christ.

      My buddies '05 Mustang has a Kenne Bell 3.2 and puts down 540rwhp. It has the ability to also get 26mpg. Do any of you think he drives it at 10/10ths all the time? Of course not, sometimes it's on the freeway, not in boost and getting good mpgs. How can there be anything wrong with that? If he could attain 40mpgs you damn well better believe he's going to try for it. It's sometimes just as fun to be frugal as it is to roast tires.

      Once again, for the ump-teenth time, some of you TCL'ers amaze me with your incompetent nonsense and unceasing stupidity. Feeling that you need to broadcast these asinine thoughts for everyone to see is just the proverbial cherry on top of the retard sundae.

      This is clearly not aimed at those in here with level heads. I apologize for the rant, but I couldn't hold it in!

    9. 07-31-2012 10:53 PM #34
      Quote Originally Posted by VarianceVQ View Post
      I'm not an engine engineer but I'm thinking there has to be a good reason OEMs haven't done such a thing. So I'm going to take a wild guess and says "engine longevity" without any specific reason why outside of "something has to give with that setup".
      But haven't they been doing this? ULEV?
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      08-01-2012 01:19 AM #35
      Quote Originally Posted by NOTORIOUS VR View Post
      My point is that car will never get 40 MPG unless he does an all out highway trip and never once goes into boost
      So your point is that since that is only used occasionally, eff it? Hell, cut the power down significantly too because it's very rare that any driver will be at the right rpm at full boost to achieve 640 whp. Might as well get rid of your air bags and seat belts too unless you're in a perpetual state of crashing.
      Quote Originally Posted by apizzaparty View Post
      never thought once to use my lefty for the brake. sorry in my opinion it is dumb.

    11. 08-01-2012 11:45 AM #36
      Quote Originally Posted by leaftye View Post
      So your point is that since that is only used occasionally, eff it? Hell, cut the power down significantly too because it's very rare that any driver will be at the right rpm at full boost to achieve 640 whp. Might as well get rid of your air bags and seat belts too unless you're in a perpetual state of crashing.
      No... he's being pragmatic..

      Try staying out of "the loud pedal" on a very high HP car.

      From experience high HP is intoxicating. Try staying out of boost on a long highway drive. Its not easy; with that screaming Turbo, and whistling WHOOSH calling your name.

      Easier said than done
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    12. Senior Member AZGolf's Avatar
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      08-01-2012 12:14 PM #37
      I don't know about you guys, but I feel very impressed seeing they have so many world records. Not since the heyday of the MKIV Supra have I seen so many world records reported in every single post they make!

      Quote Originally Posted by HPFPUPGRADE
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      08-01-2012 12:56 PM #38
      Quote Originally Posted by NOTORIOUS VR View Post
      Its a 328 that is the process of being boosted. Again I don't care about MPG's with that car, but it won't be any worse then stock if I'm not on it.

      But I don't really understand what you're trying to get at. So maybe you should clarify your post.
      I suspected it would be a pot/kettle kind of relationship. You know how I know you don't drive a powerful car... It's ok, neither do I. If I want speed and fuel economy I'll get another motorcycle, if I want all-weather comfort and fuel economy I'll stick with what I have.

      Quote Originally Posted by NOTORIOUS VR View Post
      My point is that car will never get 40 MPG unless he does an all out highway trip and never once goes into boost
      If his driving habits are much like mine then that would be fine. My commute is 50 miles daily with the highest speed limit at 55mph. The first 14 minutes are fun twisties and the last 11 are dead straight farm roads so I can have fun and still care about FE. What was your point again?
      Lately I have been testing "tip-in events". Just the tip-in. Just to see how it feels. Response time is typically on the order of 2-3 seconds. Sometimes the injection timing is a little off...

    14. Member rracerguy717's Avatar
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      08-01-2012 01:36 PM #39
      DI is the future has more precise fueling control. The OEM will all be DI to meet the strict emmissions and EPA mpg standards. GM just announced the next generation of small block Chevy coming in the new 2014 PU will ALL be DI Bob G
      Read below about mine and other fsi stage 3 owners bad experience and poor results with APR and there Stage 3 Kits. http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...ge-3-dyno-runs
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      I'd say you have nothing to worry about, but then again.....you are driving a modified VW. You have EVERYTHING to worry about!!!
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      08-01-2012 01:59 PM #40
      Quote Originally Posted by danny_16v View Post
      Do Mitsubishi Evo's get better fuel efficiency once tuned as well? As they get pretty bad MPG stock.
      Yes they do! Trust me a tune and exhuast was good for ~70+whp and ~3+mpg

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      08-01-2012 06:09 PM #41
      Quote Originally Posted by *+NEIL*+DIAMOND*+ View Post
      No... he's being pragmatic..

      Try staying out of "the loud pedal" on a very high HP car.

      From experience high HP is intoxicating. Try staying out of boost on a long highway drive. Its not easy; with that screaming Turbo, and whistling WHOOSH calling your name.

      Easier said than done
      No, he's being an idiot. Just because a high powered vehicle can burn a lot of gas is no reason to scrap the possibility for efficiency.
      Quote Originally Posted by apizzaparty View Post
      never thought once to use my lefty for the brake. sorry in my opinion it is dumb.

    17. Member adrew's Avatar
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      08-01-2012 06:23 PM #42
      Quote Originally Posted by slippinclutch View Post
      US Emissions standards keep them from doing this, like Shomegrown stated. In europe, some VW/Audis run 22:1 AFRs during cruise, but that creates a lot of NOx.
      Old Civic VXs and HXs would do that, too:
      Quote Originally Posted by HondaTech
      Lean-burn will engage at highway speeds on the VX and HX Civics and run from 15:1 all the way to 25:1 for 49 states and to 20:1 for cars sold in california.
      http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2277389

      Improving the signal-to-noise ratio

    18. Senior Member AZGolf's Avatar
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      08-01-2012 06:59 PM #43
      Actually what's sad is that according to a few of the tech articles I've read, we would still have learn-burn engines in America if they would have regulated gasoline to the same standard as diesel. The absolute legal limit on ULSD is 15ppm, but from what I've read, the true average is around 10ppm. Meanwhile gasoline is still something like 50ppm, although I keep finding conflicting things online. Anyway; what I do remember is that the bottom line is that sulfur is a poison to catalysts, especially in lean operation. If they would regulate gasoline to the same sulfur standard as ULSD then we should be able to get lean burn gasoline engines in America that still pass emissions.

      It would be win-win over time.

      1) Lower sulfur means less junk going into the gas, meaning cleaner exhaust coming out of it.
      2) Ability to do lean-burn increases gas mileage, reducing cost
      3) Lower green-house gas emissions per mile

      It all starts with refining the sulfur out of gasoline to an equal standard with ULSD (10ppm avg, 15ppm maximum).

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      08-01-2012 08:25 PM #44
      A few years ago on the GM tuning websites, there was talk about how lean burn was disabled in the ECU of US market versions, but worked in Australian market versions.
      Quote Originally Posted by apizzaparty View Post
      never thought once to use my lefty for the brake. sorry in my opinion it is dumb.

    20. Member novacircuit's Avatar
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      08-01-2012 08:33 PM #45
      ugh so much turbo lag. no thanks...

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      08-01-2012 08:56 PM #46
      This is a good place to brag about my fuel economy in my Jetta mk2 GLI 16v. Seems when its around 70F outside, and I go 40-45 mph in 5th, I can touch 40mpg on a long straight. Exciting I know. It has some kind of cam, no other engine tune that I'm aware of.

    22. 08-01-2012 09:17 PM #47
      Quote Originally Posted by leaftye View Post
      No, he's being an idiot. Just because a high powered vehicle can burn a lot of gas is no reason to scrap the possibility for efficiency.
      Noone suggested scrapping anything bonehead. All WE are saying is that..

      (A) A modified 4 cylinder Turbo car, with a larger (read much laggier) Turbo; will almost ALWAYS net a significant increase in gas mileage while driven out of boost. Nothing impressive about it...

      (B) That although the car MAY be capable of returning high MPG highway figures (in theory); the reality is that one stab of the accelerator on a long drive is all it takes for those DUAL Bosch 044 pumps to suck down gallons of petroleum, and force it down a length of '6 AN fuel line, to the fuel rail, to a set of HUNGRY 1000cc-1600cc injectors, and totally negate any perceived 'mileage master' dreams you were entertaining.

      So "don't hit boost" you say? You try not hitting boost, on the highway, in a BT 4 cylinder car, that makes all of 100 HP TOPS below 5000 rpm.

      You want to pass or accelerate briefly? You have (2) options.

      (1) try to wheeze by in a 3000+ lb car with 100 HP out of boost, during "mileage master mode".. Good luck with that

      (2) drop a gear, pour on the boost, and put your eyeballs in the back of your head as you accelerate like a slug from a 45.

      Thats it.. There is very little power modulation in a BT car. All or nothing, like a light switch.

      I've owned, and built a few BT cars, and I love them. What are YOU going to school me on? Im all ears chump..
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      08-01-2012 11:02 PM #48
      Quote Originally Posted by *+NEIL*+DIAMOND*+ View Post
      Noone suggested scrapping anything bonehead. All WE are saying is that..

      (A) A modified 4 cylinder Turbo car, with a larger (read much laggier) Turbo; will almost ALWAYS net a significant increase in gas mileage while driven out of boost. Nothing impressive about it...

      (B) That although the car MAY be capable of returning high MPG highway figures (in theory); the reality is that one stab of the accelerator on a long drive is all it takes for those DUAL Bosch 044 pumps to suck down gallons of petroleum, and force it down a length of '6 AN fuel line, to the fuel rail, to a set of HUNGRY 1000cc-1600cc injectors, and totally negate any perceived 'mileage master' dreams you were entertaining.

      So "don't hit boost" you say? You try not hitting boost, on the highway, in a BT 4 cylinder car, that makes all of 100 HP TOPS below 5000 rpm.

      You want to pass or accelerate briefly? You have (2) options.

      (1) try to wheeze by in a 3000+ lb car with 100 HP out of boost, during "mileage master mode".. Good luck with that

      (2) drop a gear, pour on the boost, and put your eyeballs in the back of your head as you accelerate like a slug from a 45.

      Thats it.. There is very little power modulation in a BT car. All or nothing, like a light switch.

      I've owned, and built a few BT cars, and I love them. What are YOU going to school me on? Im all ears chump..
      I shouldn't argue with an idiot, but here goes...

      No one is saying that a high powered car capable of getting 40 mpg will ever attain that average mpg, or even get it over sustained periods.

      No one is saying that this 40 mpg is possible while pumping out the highest levels of power.

      The part you need to get through your thick skull is that those times of efficiency is what prevents it from sucking "down gallons of petroleum" at every given moment.

      You cannot reconcile how making more power with bigger injectors and a higher flow pump can result in a car that returns higher efficiency on the road, even though you said yourself that you've had cars that did exactly that.

      It's quite obvious you pay no attention whatsoever to the technical aspects of autosports because you should already know that fuel efficiency at part throttle is a big deal. Aside from drag racing, there's a lot of modulation of fuel efficiency. That's what wins races and championships. Audi and Audi race fans know all about that. There's even more opportunity for fuel efficiency in a road driven car.

      The problem you have is that while you understand maximum fuel consumption, you can't understand the benefits of all the other states. Let me try to explain it: Average real world fuel consumption is a result of zero and maximum fuel consumption rates and everything in between. Improving all those parts in between is what results in increased fuel efficiency.
      Quote Originally Posted by apizzaparty View Post
      never thought once to use my lefty for the brake. sorry in my opinion it is dumb.

    24. 08-01-2012 11:41 PM #49
      Quote Originally Posted by leaftye View Post
      I shouldn't argue with an idiot, but here goes...
      spoken by a guy who obviously knows nothing about building/tuning a BT car
      No one is saying that a high powered car capable of getting 40 mpg will ever attain that average mpg, or even get it over sustained periods.
      I never said that you said that. Reading comprehension > you

      No one is saying that this 40 mpg is possible while pumping out the highest levels of power.

      The part you need to get through your thick skull is that those times of efficiency is what prevents it from sucking "down gallons of petroleum" at every given moment.
      I think I explained it pretty clearly myself chump.
      You cannot reconcile how making more power with bigger injectors and a higher flow pump can result in a car that returns higher efficiency on the road, even though you said yourself that you've had cars that did exactly that.
      wrong. I have a very firm grasp of how large injectors that are properly tuned for in the ecu CAN spray very efficiently even at low load/volume. In the case of Bosch ev14 and the injector dynamics "id" series injectors; they offer an even better (read finer) spray pattern than stock. That said; the delivery capabilities of a "larger fuel system" are totally irrelevant in relation to how "efficient" the system will behave at low load. Its like running a 110 volt/60 watt light bulb on a 110 volt circuit that's designed to handle 110 volts at 80 amps instead of the normal 15-20 amp circuits. The bulb will burn just as efficiently, perhaps even more so. It will only consume as much as it would normally draw. Was that a simple enough analogy for you?

      It's quite obvious you pay no attention whatsoever to the technical aspects of autosports because you should already know that fuel efficiency at part throttle is a big deal. Aside from drag racing, there's a lot of modulation of fuel efficiency. please school me on these "autosports" that you know so much about. Its clear that you are speaking from the lower part of your colon. Please stop embarrassing yourself That's what wins races and championships. Audi and Audi race fans know all about that. cool story bro There's even more opportunity for fuel efficiency in a road driven car.
      that makes zero sense, but OK
      The problem you have is that while you understand maximum fuel consumption, you can't understand the benefits of all the other states. Let me try to explain it: do tellAverage real world fuel consumption is a result of zero and maximum fuel consumption rates and everything in between. Improving all those parts in between is what results in increased fuel efficiency.gee wizz; you sure are a shining beacon of knowledge
      Feel like tuning my current V70R project for me upon completion?
      Quote Originally Posted by gdoggmoney View Post
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    25. Member muffintop's Avatar
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      08-02-2012 01:23 AM #50
      TCL hates MS3's remember?
      I'll be in my bunk.

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