Username or Email Address
Do you already have an account?
Forgot your password?
  • Log in or Sign up

    VWVortex


    Results 1 to 13 of 13

    Thread: What to datalog to troubleshoot spark getting cut.

    1. 07-31-2012 04:55 PM #1
      Hi folks,
      I'm troubleshooting an issue where my MK3 gti vr6 is cutting spark on the rear 3 plugs between about 1800-4000 RPM. The car isn't throwing codes, other than sai and evap on occasion. I want to track/log through the ECU to see what the injectors, as well as ignition is seeing. Can someone point me in the right direction on which banks to log?

      I've replace a ton of parts, but to no avail.

    2. 08-01-2012 02:31 AM #2
      Start with a complete auto scan of your vehicle using a current, licensed version of VCDS. Please read "Read This Before Posting...." sticky in this forum.

    3. 08-01-2012 03:18 AM #3
      Sure. Here it is:

      VCDS Version: Release 10.6.4
      Data version: 20110418
      Canadubs Inc.
      Wednesday,01,August,2012,01:08:21:63905

      Chassis Type: 1H - VW Golf/Vento III
      Scan: 01 02 03 08 12 15 25 41 56

      -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Address 01: Engine Labels: 021-906-259-AAA.lbl
      Part No: 021 906 259 N
      Component: MOTRONIC M5.9 HS V03
      Coding: 00000
      Shop #: WSC 00066
      VCID: 205579408A53

      No fault code found.
      Readiness: 0110 1101

      -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Address 03: ABS Brakes Labels: 3A0-907-379.lbl
      Part No: 3A0 907 379 E
      Component: ABS/EDS ITTAE 20 GI V00
      Coding: 03704
      Shop #: WSC 00000
      VCID: 2C4D9D70F69B

      4 Faults Found:
      00285 - ABS Wheel Speed Sensor; Front Right (G45)
      35-00 - -
      00290 - ABS Wheel Speed Sensor; Rear Left (G46)
      35-00 - -
      00285 - ABS Wheel Speed Sensor; Front Right (G45)
      16-10 - Signal Outside Specifications - Intermittent
      00287 - ABS Wheel Speed Sensor; Rear Right (G44)
      35-10 - - - Intermittent

      -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Address 15: Airbags Labels: 1J0-909-60x-VW3.lbl
      Part No: 1J0 909 603 T
      Component: AIRBAG VW3 - V04
      Coding: 00084
      Shop #: WSC 00066
      VCID: 3A61AB280CCF

      No fault code found.

      End ---------------------------------------------------------------------


      Through all this troubleshooting, we've replaced a ton of stuff. Tested a few coilpacks, but the rear 3 cylinders are not firing (or not getting enough current) pretty much from 1800 RPM+

    4. 08-01-2012 11:25 AM #4
      Sorry no help for old unsupported versions sir.

      Please upgrade and start over.



      http://www.ross-tech.com/vcds/download/
      Jack Shapiro E.P.E. VAS>ASE Extern VST-3/1 LAB (TECH INQUIRIES ARE TO BE IN WRITING )
      7076062 NYS DMV SAE>NASTF>VW-Audi GEKO Authorized
      European Parts Emporium/Performance --- Immobilizer Solutions LLC --------
      Postadresse: 1001 State Route 17K Montgomery New York 12549 USA
      vwemporium@aol.com -845-457-9808 TEL 9AM-5PM --------TAKE CONTROL OF WHAT YOU OWN!!!!!!

    5. 08-11-2012 09:08 PM #5
      OK. Done.

      VCDS Version: Release 11.11.3
      Data version: 20120401
      Canadubs Inc.
      Saturday,11,August,2012,19:07:36:63905

      Chassis Type: 1H - VW Golf/Vento III
      Scan: 01 02 03 08 12 15 25 41 56

      -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Address 01: Engine Labels: 021-906-259-AAA.lbl
      Part No: 021 906 259 N
      Component: MOTRONIC M5.9 HS V03
      Coding: 00000
      Shop #: WSC 00066
      VCID: 20557940A0D8C29

      3 Faults Found:
      16795 - Secondary Air Injection System
      P0411 - 35-00 - Incorrect Flow Detected
      17881 - EVAP Leak Detection Pump
      P1473 - 35-10 - Open Circuit - Intermittent
      17883 - EVAP Leak Detection Pump
      P1475 - 35-00 - Malfunction / No Signal
      Readiness: 0110 0101

      -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Address 03: ABS Brakes Labels: 3A0-907-379.lbl
      Part No: 3A0 907 379 E
      Component: ABS/EDS ITTAE 20 GI V00
      Coding: 03704
      Shop #: WSC 00000
      VCID: 2C4D9D70DC10169

      4 Faults Found:
      00285 - ABS Wheel Speed Sensor; Front Right (G45)
      35-00 - -
      00290 - ABS Wheel Speed Sensor; Rear Left (G46)
      35-00 - -
      00285 - ABS Wheel Speed Sensor; Front Right (G45)
      16-10 - Signal Outside Specifications - Intermittent
      00287 - ABS Wheel Speed Sensor; Rear Right (G44)
      35-10 - - - Intermittent

      -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Address 15: Airbags Labels: 1J0-909-60x-VW3.lbl
      Part No: 1J0 909 603 T
      Component: AIRBAG VW3 - V04
      Coding: 00084
      Shop #: WSC 00066
      VCID: 3A61AB282644B89

      No fault code found.

      End ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    6. 08-11-2012 09:29 PM #6
      Thank you for the updated scan.

      It doesn't make sense to lose spark on the rear bank plugs only.
      Considering this design is a waste spark system for VR.

      There are only 3 drivers for the coil pack.

      So it could be, you have bent valves at the rear cam most likely ( Sorry for the bad news )
      Timing chain/lifters tensioners ? Cam bolt loose with broken key-way freewheeling?
      Do a compression/leak down test check, to verify first.
      Jack Shapiro E.P.E. VAS>ASE Extern VST-3/1 LAB (TECH INQUIRIES ARE TO BE IN WRITING )
      7076062 NYS DMV SAE>NASTF>VW-Audi GEKO Authorized
      European Parts Emporium/Performance --- Immobilizer Solutions LLC --------
      Postadresse: 1001 State Route 17K Montgomery New York 12549 USA
      vwemporium@aol.com -845-457-9808 TEL 9AM-5PM --------TAKE CONTROL OF WHAT YOU OWN!!!!!!

    7. 08-11-2012 09:38 PM #7
      I actually have that info handy. All that is new (chains, lifters, tensioners, guides). The engine was a complete rebuild, save for the valves themselves and the valve springs. Cam gear is OK.

      The guy who built the engine had a look at it last week and took the valve cover off to doublecheck the chains and timing were OK. Leakdown is OK. Timing is on. He did a leakdown a couple times on it. Came out OK.

      Could you explain what having some bent valves in the rear bank would cause spark to cut over 1800? Is it the cam position sensor? The crank position sensor is new too.

      Oh, on the valves themselves, they were re-lapped when the engine was reassembled.

    8. 08-13-2012 11:14 PM #8
      Also, from a data logging perspective, is there a way I can use my VAG-Com to compare the "signal/response" to the coilpack and compare the front and back banks? This would be to verify the ECU and ICM are "sending" properly.

      Let me know,

      Thanks,

    9. 08-14-2012 03:46 PM #9
      Can you explain to me if its a waste spark system why you loose spark after an RPM in the back bank but not the front? How do you know its spark?

      Makes no sense to me what you are trying for a diagnostic path.

      If you have compression and leak down is OK/cam timing.

      Then you either have an oil PSI to high problem at rear bank of head causing valve timing deviation or wires/plugs are faulty.

      Think and understand the system you are working on in regards to waste spark!
      Jack Shapiro E.P.E. VAS>ASE Extern VST-3/1 LAB (TECH INQUIRIES ARE TO BE IN WRITING )
      7076062 NYS DMV SAE>NASTF>VW-Audi GEKO Authorized
      European Parts Emporium/Performance --- Immobilizer Solutions LLC --------
      Postadresse: 1001 State Route 17K Montgomery New York 12549 USA
      vwemporium@aol.com -845-457-9808 TEL 9AM-5PM --------TAKE CONTROL OF WHAT YOU OWN!!!!!!

    10. 08-14-2012 05:50 PM #10
      The loss of spark was tested with an ignition spark tester. There's spark up until 1800, then there is none, but only on the back.

      My understanding of the coilpack is that we should probably see failures of only 2 plugs, as they're paired on the coilpack itself. Edit: I read up on wasted spark, so my understanding of how this one works seems to have been accurate, I was just lacking the association to the term, "wasted spark".

      We've double-checked cam timing as well. It's correct. The guy I'm working with has been a VW/German mechanic for the better part of a decade and he's even a bit perplexed. That's why I turned here. If educating myself about this is the resolution, then can you please point me in the direction of some literature and I'll stop asking for help here, or at least be able to ask this question more intelligently.

      As for plug wires, I've had 3 sets of plug wires on there, 2 coilpacks, and replaced the following parts:
      MAF
      Blue coolant sensor
      low oil pressure sender
      Crank position sensor

      I'm sure I've missed some other parts. I've been having this issue for almost two years now, so if you're saying there's nothing I can look at from a VAG-Com perspective to help me with this, then I'll move along, other than to ask if there's a way to check for the oil pressure issue you've mentioned.

    11. 08-14-2012 06:18 PM #11
      Yes

      Measure the PSI at the head and at the housing for oil filter.

      Usually the car wont start with this condition, but if its a port blocked or damaged in the head that would explain the rear bank going crazy.

      Waste spark fires only 3 cylinders at opposite strokes so it fires all 6 when 3 are at TDC
      and 3 BDC for each as a cleaning effect.

      A fast test to isolate the coil circuit you suspect, would be to swap the upper and lower banks at the coil pack.

      If the problem moves to the front bank then it is truly related, but I doubt it.

      You could also have a vacuum leak or blocked intake or exhaust port due to FOD.

      Are you in NY?

      Are your parts CHINA or OEM? COIL, MAF, WIRES, PLUGS
      Last edited by Jack@European Parts; 08-14-2012 at 06:24 PM.
      Jack Shapiro E.P.E. VAS>ASE Extern VST-3/1 LAB (TECH INQUIRIES ARE TO BE IN WRITING )
      7076062 NYS DMV SAE>NASTF>VW-Audi GEKO Authorized
      European Parts Emporium/Performance --- Immobilizer Solutions LLC --------
      Postadresse: 1001 State Route 17K Montgomery New York 12549 USA
      vwemporium@aol.com -845-457-9808 TEL 9AM-5PM --------TAKE CONTROL OF WHAT YOU OWN!!!!!!

    12. 08-16-2012 02:48 PM #12
      No, sorry I'm not in NY. I'll have to doublecheck on where all my parts came from. I'm just going to go through all the checks again and document them as I go along. I'll for sure swap the plug wires to test it out. I'm also going to pull the plugs (again) to make sure they're not fouled or otherwise messed up.

      Thanks for the help. I'll post up what I find. It's going to take a bit of time to gather the results though.

    13. 09-24-2012 12:06 PM #13
      Back from the dead. I tested the coil with an inline ignition tester. Getting spark on all plugs, even into high revs. Must have been something wrong with the other test.
      I'm going to upgrade the grounds and check the compression just to be sure. I thought I heard valve slap, but it came and went, so I have to assume that was the lifters having drained (really hoping actually).

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •