Well..., that's gonna be a problem. Wastegate/Overboost content

[warranty225cpe]

So as some of you know, I just got my car back from an IE rod F23 build, and have been having a hell of a time trying to get it running right. So today in kind of a last ditch effort, started at square 1. I cut the vac line going from my Forge wastegate to my AEM TruBoost EBC. I wanted to see what the forge was set at, and adjust my spring pressure on the AEM accordingly. So, I cut the line and went for a drive (expecting to see pressure on the gauge of around 10-14psi) and my first pull is 22psi! Shouldn't I be seeing something MUCH lower? Isn't this pointing to a WAY over tightened wastgate? I think I might have found my issue. Someone please confirm my suspicions.

[Cryser]

did you put the forge waste gate ON the F23?

With a forge wastegate you should be able to change the spring inside, tightening the nut of the actuator arm is NOT the proper way to adjust the wastegate spring pressure. This method is popular because it is the ONLY way to achieve the goal on a stock turbo. With an aftermarket wastegate that has variable springs you should only adjust spring inside the wastegate, the actuator arm should only be adjusted if the wastegate doesn't open up fully causing boost creep at any RPM range.

You probably have the wrong spring in the wastegate, swap the spring out and apply pressure to the wastegate actuator, once the arm starts to move you'll know at what pressure your wastegate begins to open. Use a the spring closest to your desired max boost level without going over or being within ~5PSI of the target. So if your want 25PSI try and find a spring rated for 20PSI, if you experiance a boost spike use a lower rated spring until the spike is gone, then use your EBC to regain any loss in spoolrate.

[STOICH]

The Forge WG comes with a stiffer spring to begin with. Ideally, you would want to increase your crack pressure when increasing your running positive pressure; typically a few points below max running pressure.

Contact Forge and see what the spring is rated at and go from there. What running pressure are you regularly seeing?

[warranty225cpe]

did you put the forge waste gate ON the F23?

Yes

With a forge wastegate you should be able to change the spring inside, tightening the nut of the actuator arm is NOT the proper way to adjust the wastegate spring pressure. This method is popular because it is the ONLY way to achieve the goal on a stock turbo. With an aftermarket wastegate that has variable springs you should only adjust spring inside the wastegate, the actuator arm should only be adjusted if the wastegate doesn't open up fully causing boost creep at any RPM range.

Yes, that's how I understand it as well.

You probably have the wrong spring in the wastegate, swap the spring out and apply pressure to the wastegate actuator, once the arm starts to move you'll know at what pressure your wastegate begins to open. Use a the spring closest to your desired max boost level without going over or being within ~5PSI of the target. So if your want 25PSI try and find a spring rated for 20PSI, if you experiance a boost spike use a lower rated spring until the spike is gone, then use your EBC to regain any loss in spoolrate.

This is where you lost me. It's my understanding that the WG spring is NOT a determining factor in boost pressure. Forge makes a few different springs. The highest tension they sell is (don't quote me) like 14psi (I believe mine is a 10-12psi). So saying I should find a 20psi spring seems misleading to me (I could be wrong).

The Forge WG comes with a stiffer spring to begin with. Ideally, you would want to increase your crack pressure when increasing your running positive pressure; typically a few points below max running pressure. Contact Forge and see what the spring is rated at and go from there. What running pressure are you regularly seeing?

I'm limiting the boost pressure to 15psi until I get a propper tune. And even though I'm limited to 15, I still see pressures above that (further indication that my WG is WAY over tightened.

I surprised neither one of you suggested to unload the springs tension a little. Are we not on the same page here? Is there something I'm missing? Forge doesn't make a 20psi spring..?

[warranty225cpe]

FWIW, I can't move my WG rod or door at all. It feels way tight.

[STOICH]

Did a little lookin on the Forge website and it seems they are supplied with a Green spring as they supply as close to stock as possible. If this is what you have, then it sounds like your actuator rod is over tighten.

First step is finding out what spring rate is currently installed.

[warranty225cpe]

Did a little lookin on the Forge website and it seems they are supplied with a Green spring as they supply as close to stock as possible. If this is what you have, then it sounds like your actuator rod is over tighten.

First step is finding out what spring rate is currently installed.

Agreed. I bought it used from a forum member. He said it was one step higher than the stock spring rate. And if that's the case, weve got a WG rod that's in desperate need of tension relief. I guess I know what I'm doing tomorrow. When I back the tension down, I'll look for a pressure in the 10-14psi range. Thanks for the input. I needed a second opinion on what I was lookin at. So tired of trying to get the F23 running right. Next time I do my own work

[Cryser]

The wastegate spring SHOULD be the single determining factor of which point your wastegate opens. If you are limiting the ability of your wastegate to allow gasses to bypass the turbine then you will increase the boost the turbo puts out, but you begin to limit the control the wastegate has in the system. This can cause extremely HIGH EGT's which will present itself in a multitude of other problems, the most common ones(excess timing pull even with conservation timing, back pressure in the exhaust manifold etc) come along with a loss in power and extreme case destruction of an engine.

The proper way to increase or decrease the pressure at which your wastegate opens is by changing the tension that must be overcome by the exhaust gasses into order to open the wastegate flap. By understanding this you can see why, while adjusting the travel of the actuator arm will effect over all boost levels, adjusting the spring inside the wastegate is a much more viable and correct option. Since you have the ability to be able to do this quite easily, this is the path you should take to solve your problem.

Since you bought this wastegate second hand it is HIGHLY likely that the previous owner did what most people do when they don't fully understand a technology they are trying to adjust on a car, go to a forum. Since on the stock turbo we can't to open up the wastegate to change the spring, nor would we have additional springs to use if we could, people use the actuator arm adjustment to (incorrectly) control boost. Unfortunately this is "common 1.8T stock turbo knowledge" and is what 99% of people do to "fix" low boost problems.

The nut SHOULD be someone in the center of the arm, more so AWAY from the actuator. If your nut is close to the actuator you need to loosen it.

As for my recommendation you need to understand something. The forge wastegate was designed for the stock turbo at "Stage 2" boost levels which generally are aimed at 19-20.5PSI. If you take this into account, then you can clearly see why a 15PSI probably the highest forge makes for this wastegate. Now since you have a frankenturbo you most likely wanna see in the range of 25-26PSI as that's what the tunes for this turbo is meant for. For this level of boost a 20PSI spring would be where I would begin from in my adjusting of springs... if this spring doesn't exist it's because the product wasn't designed for what your using it for. Forge when they made this product never though a "stock style" actuator would need to have a spring that high since a 20PSI would not be a good fit for a system only reaching 20.5 PSI it would cause HUGE spikes and other nasty problems.

SO yes you probably want somewhere between an 18-20PSI spring for a max boost of 26PSI... if it doesn't exist use whatever is closest without going too far over IE 15PSI spring, then adjust the settings on your boost control system until it behaves the way you want. You mention an AEM TruBoost system, which I know personally, has the abilities to do those adjustments =)

[warranty225cpe]

The wastegate spring SHOULD be the single determining factor of which point your wastegate opens. If you are limiting the ability of your wastegate to allow gasses to bypass the turbine then you will increase the boost the turbo puts out, but you begin to limit the control the wastegate has in the system. This can cause extremely HIGH EGT's which will present itself in a multitude of other problems, the most common ones(excess timing pull even with conservation timing, back pressure in the exhaust manifold etc) come along with a loss in power and extreme case destruction of an engine.

The proper way to increase or decrease the pressure at which your wastegate opens is by changing the tension that must be overcome by the exhaust gasses into order to open the wastegate flap. By understanding this you can see why, while adjusting the travel of the actuator arm will effect over all boost levels, adjusting the spring inside the wastegate is a much more viable and correct option. Since you have the ability to be able to do this quite easily, this is the path you should take to solve your problem.

Since you bought this wastegate second hand it is HIGHLY likely that the previous owner did what most people do when they don't fully understand a technology they are trying to adjust on a car, go to a forum. Since on the stock turbo we can't to open up the wastegate to change the spring, nor would we have additional springs to use if we could, people use the actuator arm adjustment to (incorrectly) control boost. Unfortunately this is "common 1.8T stock turbo knowledge" and is what 99% of people do to "fix" low boost problems.

The nut SHOULD be someone in the center of the arm, more so AWAY from the actuator. If your nut is close to the actuator you need to loosen it.

As for my recommendation you need to understand something. The forge wastegate was designed for the stock turbo at "Stage 2" boost levels which generally are aimed at 19-20.5PSI. If you take this into account, then you can clearly see why a 15PSI probably the highest forge makes for this wastegate. Now since you have a frankenturbo you most likely wanna see in the range of 25-26PSI as that's what the tunes for this turbo is meant for. For this level of boost a 20PSI spring would be where I would begin from in my adjusting of springs... if this spring doesn't exist it's because the product wasn't designed for what your using it for. Forge when they made this product never though a "stock style" actuator would need to have a spring that high since a 20PSI would not be a good fit for a system only reaching 20.5 PSI it would cause HUGE spikes and other nasty problems.

SO yes you probably want somewhere between an 18-20PSI spring for a max boost of 26PSI... if it doesn't exist use whatever is closest without going too far over IE 15PSI spring, then adjust the settings on your boost control system until it behaves the way you want. You mention an AEM TruBoost system, which I know personally, has the abilities to do those adjustments =)

I get what your saying. Ive adjusted the crack pressure on the TruBoost from around 8psi-11psi, and it all feels like crap in the upper RPMs. Do you really think that I shouldn't set the WG with the right amount of preload first before I do anything else? I should be able to move an actuator rod holding 10-15lbs of spring tension by hand. I understand what your saying, and I don't want to sound ungrateful for the help.

[doug@frankenturbo.com]

... I cut the line and went for a drive (expecting to see pressure on the gauge of around 10-14psi) and my first pull is 22psi!

what do you mean, "cut the line"? Is that another way of saying you routed manifold pressure directly into the actuator nipple? No valve of any sort between the pressure source and the turbo?

[xxsur3shotxx]

what do you mean, "cut the line"? Is that another way of saying you routed manifold pressure directly into the actuator nipple? No valve of any sort between the pressure source and the turbo?

x2

if you just removed the line, the wastegate will never open.

[warranty225cpe]

what do you mean, "cut the line"? Is that another way of saying you routed manifold pressure directly into the actuator nipple? No valve of any sort between the pressure source and the turbo?

I disconnected the vac line from the WG.

[xxsur3shotxx]

I disconnected the vac line from the WG.

then the gate will never open..........

[STOICH]

Well, that changes things a bit. In that case you're relying on the exhaust to force the WG flapper open, otherwise it's not going to open. You need to hook that line up directly to manifold pressure.

[warranty225cpe]

Well, that changes things a bit. In that case you're relying on the exhaust to force the WG flapper open, otherwise it's not going to open. You need to hook that line up directly to manifold pressure.

So run the WG Line to manifold and see what I'm boosting?

[18T_BT]

So run the WG Line to manifold and see what I'm boosting?

ed zachary

[xxsur3shotxx]

ed zachary

[Atomic Ed]

then the gate will never open..........

Not quite true. When the boost pressure exceeds the spring pressure, the wastegate will be pushed opened. This was the "old school" way we set wastegate preload.

[warranty225cpe]

Alright...., well, I hooked the WG line up to the manifold for vac and took it for a ride. I had my buddy watch the boost gauge while I drove. I was boosting around 11psi and change. But the weird part, was that the boost was spiking, and not holding that PSI steady at a all. So that kinda made me think I had a possible issue with my WG. So I decided to take a look a little further. Turns out the line coming from the WG to the EBC was SO small that it MIGHT have been a restriction. So I decided to go with a little bigger ID silicone hose (I bought a shop kit with a bunch of different sized, thick silicone vac lines. I ended up going with a smaller ID line because it had a more "snug" fit in the WG port). Then I figured I would replumb the N75 and see if things were any better swapping EBC for N75. So, I take it for a drive with N75 and bigger ID vac line. It boosted into the 25+psi range, but something still feels like its holding back boost. I have yet to get any logging done. I'm working on getting a date lined up, but the last attempt we had the wrong cable

On a side note that I'm sure is JUST as important, I pulled a plug on my IM to tie in the N75, and had oil come out (blown turbo/reason for the F23 build. They said they let the pipes drain for 3 days, but wouldn't clean the system out. Then they decided to overfill my oil by 1.5qts. Looks like more firckin problems).

[Slimjimmn]

yea, tell me about small ID hoses to the n75.
I was having many surging issues after installing my chipped ecu. Checked everything, nothing.
Then I was like, I am going to change that hose, its an ebay hose, and i'm having lots of issues with ebay stuff. Well sure enough...


installed some 5/16 braided fuel hose and no more surging at all and holds 20psi as it should.

yea also, cheap tiwan made n75 from ebay...

[warranty225cpe]

Yeah, here's a pic of mine..



The line to my DV is the same size. I'll change that one out tomorrow. maybe the 2 WG & DV lines being super small had an effect on the amount of cfm I can pull through vac. Although I never thought there would be that big of a difference. If my car runs/boosts better tomorrow once I swap to a bigger ID line on the DV, I'm sold.

I have to say I'm a little worried about the oil from my blown turbo in my pipes/intercooler/IM.

[Slimjimmn]

you will always have oil in the IM with the use of a pcv system on a turbo car.

If there is large amounts of oil it might be from the overfilling on the oil change. if they put in 1.5Qts overfilled it prob went into the intake.

[warranty225cpe]

you will always have oil in the IM with the use of a pcv system on a turbo car.

If there is large amounts of oil it might be from the overfilling on the oil change. if they put in 1.5Qts overfilled it prob went into the intake.

Yeah, it's just a little alarming seeing it pour out onto the floor

I had to work today and decided to swap out a bigger line on the DV before work. The car feels pretty good. It's boost to 23-25 WITH the N75 in and the TruBoost out of the loop. And I still need to drive it on the highway to see if it's still overboosting/limping. I'm starting to think that one of the ports on the EBC might be leaking where they thread into the body of the solenoid. I noticed that the shop didn't put any thread tape on the threads, and I could hear what sounded like leaking (that I don't hear now that the N75 is back in). The sound was sparatic like the EBC was cycling and bleeding off air. I guess I'm going to try to thread tape the ports and then try the AEM again.
Thanks for the help guys, I'll keep you posted.

Edit: I don't have a PCV anymore. I'm venting to atmosphere until I can make my 10an lines.

[doug@frankenturbo.com]

Alright...., well, I hooked the WG line up to the manifold for vac and took it for a ride. I had my buddy watch the boost gauge while I drove. I was boosting around 11psi and change.

Eric, can't you log the thing? That Forge actuator has tons of potential. But you need to get a handle on how it behaves.

[xxsur3shotxx]

Not quite true. When the boost pressure exceeds the spring pressure, the wastegate will be pushed opened. This was the "old school" way we set wastegate preload.

not to thread jack, but would you explain how, if you do not have a boost reference to the wastegate, none what so ever, the gate will open at the spring pre-load, based on boost. It *might* open if the pressure in the exhaust side of the housing was great enough to overcome the spring pre-load and push the flapper open.

[warranty225cpe]

Eric, can't you log the thing? That Forge actuator has tons of potential. But you need to get a handle on how it behaves.

Working on it Doug. Had a date to log last weekend and ended up with the wrong cable
There's another forum member that's local and has the right hardware, but nailing down a time when we're both available is proving to be a challenge. It is #1 on my sh|t to do list.

[warranty225cpe]

So I went through the ports in the solenoid. They weren't sealed well at all. I pulled the ports and sealed them with thread tape. I have a strong feeling that at least one was leaking under boost.

[warranty225cpe]

Car runs MUCH better now. I guess that's what I get for letting someone else do the EBC install. Having other people do my sh|t has been nothing but dissapointing.